alexkvaskov
New Member
Not that the rebels would want to with Kiev's population likely highly hostile to them.
Ukranian Crisis
- Thread starter KiwiRob
- Start date
- Status
gazzzwp
Member
I don't see the optimism behind your predictions. You are assuming that the size of the rebel force stays the same. We know this to be untrue over the course of the last year as Russia has constantly sent increasing materiel across the border.
On another point has Russia calculated the ongoing cost of rebuilding and maintaining it's newly won territory? Isn't that region now going to present a financial black hole for the next 5 years?
You're assuming Russia wants to escalate. So far ever escalation has been by the Kiev government, as it introduced heavier and heavier weapons to the conflict zone, and as it pushed harder and harder to retake the rebel territories. Russia has escalated in response to it. The first real rebel offensive has been Debal'tsevo (Ilovaysk and Novoazovsk were Russian Army). It's been very slow, and very clumsy, despite the near-ideal conditions for it. Given Russia's position, and the actual actions taken, I see no reason to think the rebels will realistically threaten anything outside of Lugansk or Donetsk region. But maybe you see something I don't. If so, please share what that might be. Where do you see the threat to Kiev (the city) in the current situation?
I'm sorry, what makes you think Russia is going to rebuild it? They've just reaffirmed that they want the regions to remain part of Ukraine. At negotiations with the west, Russia strongly suggested that they expect the Kiev government to spend lots of money on rebuilding what they themselves have destroyed. It seems to me that Russia expects Ukraine, and the west, to pay for rebuilding the place. Whether that will actually happen or not remains to be seen, but I doubt Russia will pay for rebuilding the place.
Every escalation has been by the Kiev government? I'm afraid you're not thinking straight.
Firstly, how did the armed conflict begin? Did the Ukrainian government send its army to the east to attack the peaceful citizens of its own country, as they went about their lawful business? No, it began with armed insurgents taking over the centres of power. First escalation.
Any attempt to retake lost territories isn't an escalation, unless the force used is disproportionate. If, for example, it's possible to retake territory with police, but tanks are sent, that is an escalation. But we know that initial attempts to reimpose central control with lightly armed forces were defeated. They were outgunned, & surprised by the strength of the resistance they encountered. Increasing inadequate forces to try to match the adversary isn't an escalation: it's a response to one.
We can skip over a lot of details, such as Russian material aid (an escalation), Russian troops (an escalation) to the late summer Russian/rebel offensive. This was a major escalation, the seizure of previously government-held territory by rebels & Russian regulars invading directly from Russia. How in the name of all that's holy was that anything other than the biggest single escalation in the whole war? You must admit that it was not done by the Ukrainian government.
As for rebuilding by Ukraine & the West - that depends on who controls the region. If it ends up like Abkhazia or South Ossetia, or Transdnistria, it won't see any money from Ukraine or the west. It has to be reintegrated into Ukraine, or be dependent on Russian charity.
Firstly, how did the armed conflict begin? Did the Ukrainian government send its army to the east to attack the peaceful citizens of its own country, as they went about their lawful business? No, it began with armed insurgents taking over the centres of power. First escalation.
Any attempt to retake lost territories isn't an escalation, unless the force used is disproportionate. If, for example, it's possible to retake territory with police, but tanks are sent, that is an escalation. But we know that initial attempts to reimpose central control with lightly armed forces were defeated. They were outgunned, & surprised by the strength of the resistance they encountered. Increasing inadequate forces to try to match the adversary isn't an escalation: it's a response to one.
We can skip over a lot of details, such as Russian material aid (an escalation), Russian troops (an escalation) to the late summer Russian/rebel offensive. This was a major escalation, the seizure of previously government-held territory by rebels & Russian regulars invading directly from Russia. How in the name of all that's holy was that anything other than the biggest single escalation in the whole war? You must admit that it was not done by the Ukrainian government.
As for rebuilding by Ukraine & the West - that depends on who controls the region. If it ends up like Abkhazia or South Ossetia, or Transdnistria, it won't see any money from Ukraine or the west. It has to be reintegrated into Ukraine, or be dependent on Russian charity.
The battle of Debaltstevo is over and a massive surrender has taken place. It seems in the videos provided the Rebel's let a lot of them leave with there vehicles. They should of agreed to this proposal a lot sooner.
http://rt.com/news/233363-ukraine-debaltsevo-surrender-withdrawal/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8pamTYiVoU
Strategic city of Debaltseve falls to Ukraine separatists
http://rt.com/news/233363-ukraine-debaltsevo-surrender-withdrawal/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8pamTYiVoU
Strategic city of Debaltseve falls to Ukraine separatists
Well, the first escalation happened when armed insurgents took over the centers of power in Kiev.
Russians in the East, basically, did the same thing that anti-Russian, gun totting Svoboda paralimitaries, allready did. One should have expected that the government take over by extremely anti-Russian Kiev extremists, would definitely prompt the similar response in the East, and that is exactly what happened.
So the first escalation was on the Ukrainian side.
gazzzwp
Member
I don't even begin to understand your thinking Feanor. The conflict was initiated originally by masked armed provocateurs turning up at Government buildings in the East and persuading the local people that they were under threat of their lives from Nazi types in Kiev.
Then after the round up and expulsion of Kiev supporters, the conflict quickly turned into an armed one, with hoards of well armed troops appearing from no where with Russia made equipment.
So Ukraine naturally wanted to defend it's borders from the invasion. Russia initially denied that there was an invasion (an assertion it still maintains) while releasing contradictory statements that there were 'holiday troops' and 'volunteers' that have indeed crossed the border into Ukraine. Any attempt by Ukraine to win back the occupied territory was met with the supply of increased Russian troops and heavier weaponry as Russia insisted on keeping every military advantage against relatively out of date Ukrainian equipment.
So whatever Russia may call it, an invasion has taken place. Do you agree with this? Was Ukraine entitled to defend it's territory? Was it ever Russia's place to become involved under any circumstances? What else could Kiev have done? Stand by and watch more of it's territory get consumed?
So from the narratives I have (taken from RT, BBC, CNN, and any other website I can find and read) all concur with this. How could Ukraine have done anything differently?
How can Russia not take responsibility for it's newly acquired territory? Ukraine Government will as I understand have no jurisdiction in the newly acquired territories. How therefore can Europe contribute to rebuilding what it has no authority over? Are Russian troops now going to vacate the area and leave it to the Ukraine?
I can't see it. The East of Ukraine will now be treated the same as Crimea. A military annexed territory. No Western involvement.
Regarding further escalation, the 'rebels' still do not have all of the territory in the east. I bet they will try and claim it, with further support from Russia.
So which ever way you look at it Kiev has the moral high ground as far as I can see. Any region that shows a leaning to the West in that area suffers the same fate of destabilisation followed by Russian occupation.
Now Russia will face the same reality as the US did in Iraq; it must fund the cost. As proof of what I am saying, look at the millions already spent on those huge aid convoys. Why are they doing that do you suppose?
I don't think I could agree with you more. You nailed it on the head. But I'd like to also add, let's remember, the masked men seizing centers of power happended in the Crimea first, and Russia then as now, denied involvement. Some local units, backed up by Russian troops and equipment from Sevastopol helped first seize, then annex a territory belonging to a sovereign state. Then it happens in the Donbass, what was Kiev supposed to do? Wait until the Donbass was annexed and Putin decides he's ready to again admit the presence of Russian soldiers? When is it permissible, to defend the territorial integrity of your country? Isn't that what a Army is for?
What I find amusing almost, is that Russian media is painting a picture of being surrounded by the West, and that the United States seeks regime change (that would be the stupidest U.S. policy move to date, an unstable, heavily armed Russia is in no ones interest so I'm gonna say it's propaganda for domestic consumption to justify the war) yet think how Kiev must feel. It's larger and more powerful neighbor has always held sway over Kiev, and now that bigger neighbor is slowly gobbling up its territory. And Putin telling the news cameras how many European capitals his tanks can reach doesn't de-escalate things. Attack profile missions against Stockholm, flying nuclear capable bombers up to the California coast, or through the heavy air traffic area of the English Channel, is not only escalatory, it's downright provacative. Imagine had a Russian bomber collided with a civilian airliner?
Russia acts like its some docile Hindu cow, and if only the west would stop fanning the flames of war, while they send BM-21's, Smerch MLRS's, ATGM's, SP arty, T-72's, drones, surface to air missiles, lots of ammunition, gasoline, men, etc..
What Russia is doing, is a nice little Maskirovka. A deception to keep others mainly in the west, guessing, looking the wrong way.
gazzzwp
Member
Muukalainen
New Member
Putin and his minions have a plan; what that plan is, I have no clue. But I think that we can all agree that Putin isn't an idiot. He might be crazy, but he is not stupid. So, he must have believed starting a proxy war with the Ukraine would be advantageous for him and his Russia. The war may or may not be turning out the way Putin wanted. However, he will have had a reason for starting this conflict and I think that is the key to understanding his overall plan.
And Russia had no right to respond. The citizens in the east and crimea where never in danger of getting brutally and violently opressed by the new Ukrainian government.
Grapping sovereign territory of your neighbour and initiating and fueling armed civil war in your neighbours country is wrong, pure and simple.
And that's where the talk about Ukrainian politicians having a moral duty of stepping down and juts capitulating in the face of russian agression is also wrong.
Russia brought war and landgrapping back to europe. It destroyed the calm and safe post cold war peace of europe. And ironical it made their stupid comments about a new cold war become real due to it's own recent actions.
When I see our european leaders rushing back and forth in order to end this whole mess in peace and without further loss of life just to get lied to again and again my bloodpressure rises considerably.
Does anybody here really thinks that there would be even a fraction of the mess in Ukraine if Russia wouldn't have intervened with anything more than soft power?
I wouldn't blame Ukraine if they just stop fighting and hope for the best in order to reduce the bloodshetting but I will defenitely not blame them for keeping on to resist a foreign agression.
Grapping sovereign territory of your neighbour and initiating and fueling armed civil war in your neighbours country is wrong, pure and simple.
And that's where the talk about Ukrainian politicians having a moral duty of stepping down and juts capitulating in the face of russian agression is also wrong.
Russia brought war and landgrapping back to europe. It destroyed the calm and safe post cold war peace of europe. And ironical it made their stupid comments about a new cold war become real due to it's own recent actions.
When I see our european leaders rushing back and forth in order to end this whole mess in peace and without further loss of life just to get lied to again and again my bloodpressure rises considerably.
Does anybody here really thinks that there would be even a fraction of the mess in Ukraine if Russia wouldn't have intervened with anything more than soft power?
I wouldn't blame Ukraine if they just stop fighting and hope for the best in order to reduce the bloodshetting but I will defenitely not blame them for keeping on to resist a foreign agression.
Nick underscore
Member
Just quickly coming backing to this, but those 'Mech' bgdes are actually 'Motorised' Bgdes. Makes slightly more sense, considering the lack of MBT's available.
I like how you start the story at the point convenient to your view point...
It really began with the illegal government that just overthrew a democratically elected leader, forcefully disbanding protests in the east. The first round of protests did not seize buildings, or arms themselves. They were doing far less then the Maydan was. This was the first escalation. Instead of letting them protest and voice their fear and dislike of the Right Sector and Svoboda thugs who seized the government quarter and ousted their president, the new government chose to use violence. It went from there. They were dispersed by anti-riot cops. They returned, and this time seized government buildings. They were dispersed again, and they returned again. They were dispersed a third time (this time the regular police refused to do it, so they used imported private security forces, and special MVD units). So next time instead of seizing government buildings, they seized the SBU and opened the arsenals to defend themselves against federal force being used against them.
This whole time instead of seeking compromise or dialog, the Kiev government smeared the protesters as "Russian agents", "Kremlin puppets", and "separatists". It's pretty clear some were Russian agents, but when 80 000 people turn up in the streets at Kharkov (I posted links to the photos here), you can't seriously suggest that Russia bussed in 80 000 people. And when Right Sector showed up in Kharkov to demolish the Lenin statue, the locals beat them up, and the police then arrested them. Of course now the Kiev government officially demolished the same statue. Which shows how much they care for the desires of the locals.
Remember the original defenders of Slavyansk were mostly unarmed, with only a small armed force in the center, while the checkpoints on the outskirts manned by unarmed locals. I also documented, and posted the information here. The government first tried to use the army, which failed when the army refused to fight and instead handed weapons over to the local civilians. Then they used MVD and SBU special detachments, which were ultimately unsuccessful in retaking Slavyansk. They then brought in attack helicopters, heavy artillery, and heavy armor, each escalation in turn being on the government side. No real attempts at dialog, no real attempts to resolve the crisis peacefully. This whole time, the Kiev government was UNELECTED and UNDEMOCRATIC. Even by the flimsy standard the west is using towards Ukraine.
It's escalation if the conflict is internal between two parties of the Ukrainian population. And yes, Russia backed the rebels just like the US and EU backed the Kiev government.
What previous government held territory are you talking about? The rebels have only retaken territory they lost earlier. And only a fraction of it.
Russia wants the territory reintegrated into Ukraine, but under special conditions and with special privileges.
Really? It had nothing to do with western money, or western political support for the Maydan, or even the disgusting willingness of western leaders to sit down with Svoboda and Right Sector representatives? No?
Nonsense. Russia is trying to draw the line on western expansion. They want the west to stay out of the ex-USSR. They don't want a larger conflict, they want an end to NATO and EU expansionism. They want guarantees that they will not be ostracized and excluded and since EU and NATO membership is off the table, they need to make sure that all of Europe doesn't turn into one giant power.
Nonsense. The corruption of the Russian leadership is making them look corrupt.
Not really. Democracy has been marred in Russia with the stigma of the 90s. The liberals in Russia are the weakest political group. The biggest opposition to Putin is the Soviet-nostalgia coalition which consists of the CPRF and the Left Front. And they do trump the law and order card, claiming that the Communist government could end corruption.
Of course. He's a politician.
Hindsight is wonderful, but at the time it wasn't obvious. And to be honest, had things gone differently, there certainly could have been a danger of it. As is freedom of speech, political freedom, etc. have all been severely curtailed. Ukraine recently jailed a journalist for writing an article that condemns the draft and calls for a professional military, for example. Not to mention the arrests and round-ups of anti-Western political activists.
Conflating the two is certainly convenient. But the events in Crimea and in the east are quite different.
It's not a question of capitulation. It's a question of realizing the reality, and making the best use of what they had to secure the most for their people. Ukraine isn't going to join the EU this year. Or the next year. Or any time in the next decade (short of a miracle). It would cost Ukraine nothing to promise as much out loud, and could have gotten Ukraine everything.
Nope. There certainly wouldn't have. But Russia has been honing the military as an instrument of foreign policy for quite some time. And given the willingness of many western powers to use force in the third world, it's not surprising that Russia follows suit. What pisses off the West is that they did it in Europe, which the EU wants to keep from ever happening because it's close to home. If a French war in Africa or a British involvement in the Middle East goes bad, it's ok. You can pack up, go home, and it doesn't affect your population too much. If wars start being fought close to home, suddenly the first world has to deal with misery and bloodshed close to home instead of on TV. That's the real reason the EU is so furious.
To put it simply, Russia did in Ukraine a smaller and quieter version of what the US (for example) does all over the world, all the time. From Grenada to Panama, from Iraq to Libya. Using military power to settle political questions when soft power fails.
It's not Ukraine. It's the government. Ukraine is busy dodging the draft.
Update.
The Debal'tsevo pocket is gone. ~2500 Ukrainian troops were allowed to leave. ~300 surrendered. A few hundred more are dead. Which puts total numbers in the pocket 3500-4000. Pretty close to my estimates of 2-3 thousand (not the 6-8-10 thousand figures voiced).
Scores of wounded arrived in Artemovsk, overflowing the city hospital.
Ð”ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ ÐœÐ¾ÐºÑ€ÑƒÑˆÐ¸Ð½ - Дезинформирование
Ð”ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ ÐœÐ¾ÐºÑ€ÑƒÑˆÐ¸Ð½ - Порошенко о Дебальцево
Ð”ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ ÐœÐ¾ÐºÑ€ÑƒÑˆÐ¸Ð½ - Выход из Дебальцево
Из района Дебальцево было выведено 100% украинÑких Ñил
УкраинÑкие военные оÑтавлÑÑŽÑ‚ Дебальцево
Ð’ ÐртемовÑк продолжает прибывать большое количеÑтво раненых украинÑких Ñолдат
Минобороны Украины подтвердило информацию о плененных военных
There was a government offensive in the south, from Mariupol' towards Novoazovsk. It didn't go well, and Azov btln lost two Cougar armored cars, one was captured by the rebels.
Вахтенный журнал Ñтареющего пирата - Слухи и Ñплетни нашего аула...
bmpd - Полк "Ðзов" терÑет технику
Photos from the warzone.
Вахтенный журнал Ñтареющего пирата - ДебальцевÑкий "мешок"...
Вахтенный журнал Ñтареющего пирата - ВСРin action...
Вахтенный журнал Ñтареющего пирата - Трофейные фото из Ðикишино...
Вахтенный журнал Ñтареющего пирата - Украина по разные Ñтороны прицела...
Вахтенный журнал Ñтареющего пирата - Ещё битое железо из Черногоровки...
Вахтенный журнал Ñтареющего пирата - Украина по разные Ñтороны прицела...
The rebels say that the ceasefire is being observed.
Ополченцы Ñообщили о Ñохранении режима тишины в ДонбаÑÑе
Ukrainian troops shot down a UAV.
УкраинÑкие военные Ñбили очередной беÑпилотник в районе КраматорÑка
Shelling of major cities in the east seems to have stopped.
Ðа воÑтоке Украины отмечаетÑÑ Ð¿Ñ€ÐµÐºÑ€Ð°Ñ‰ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ðµ обÑтрела крупных городов
Ukrainian volunteers are upgrading the Cougar armored cars.
УкраинÑкие волонтеры модернизировали бронеавтомобиль "Кугуар"
First Saxon armored trucks, with weapons, are being sent to the front.
Первые бронемашины Saxon Ñ ÑƒÑтановленным вооружением отправили в зону ÐТО
bmpd - Первые 10 купленных Украиной бронетранÑпортеров Saxon добралиÑÑŒ до войÑк
Ukraine is conducting early release of officer candidates.
Ð”ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ ÐœÐ¾ÐºÑ€ÑƒÑˆÐ¸Ð½ - ДоÑрочный выпуÑк
The US decided not to pass additional sanctions against Russia.
Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: ÑØÀ îòêàçàëèñü ââîäèòü íîâûå ñàíêöèè ïðîòèâ Ðîññèè
Checkpoints in Rostov region are being equipped with roadblocks, after a truck full of drunk rebel fighters ran off the road, into Russia, presumably by accident.
Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: Ïóíêòû ïðîïóñêà â Ðîñòîâñêîé îáëàñòè íà÷àëè îáîðóäîâàòü áëîêèðàòîðàìè ïîñëå òîãî, êàê ïüÿíûå îïîë÷åíöû íà ÊàìÀÇå ñíåñëè çàãðàæäåíèå
The Russian UN Security Council resolution has been passed, confirming Ukrainian territorial integrity (minus Crimea, I guess), and supporting Minsk-2.
Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: Ñîâáåç ÎÎÍ ïðèíÿë ðîññèéñêóþ ðåçîëþöèþ ïî Óêðàèíå
A detailed breakdown of the rebel forces.
The DNR fields:
DNR Republican Guard Regiment
1st Motor-Rifle Brigade Slavyansk
3rd Motor-Rifles Bde Gorlovka
OBON Kalmius, Arty Bde
5th Motor-Rifle Bde Oplot
7th Bde Slavyansk
1st Independent BTG Somalia
The LNR fields:
2nd Independent Bde
4th Independent Bde
1st Cossack Regiment
bmpd - ÐžÐ±Ð¾Ð·Ð½Ð°Ñ‡ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ Ð¸ знаки на технике Ñил ДÐРи ЛÐÐ
The Debal'tsevo pocket is gone. ~2500 Ukrainian troops were allowed to leave. ~300 surrendered. A few hundred more are dead. Which puts total numbers in the pocket 3500-4000. Pretty close to my estimates of 2-3 thousand (not the 6-8-10 thousand figures voiced).
Scores of wounded arrived in Artemovsk, overflowing the city hospital.
Ð”ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ ÐœÐ¾ÐºÑ€ÑƒÑˆÐ¸Ð½ - Дезинформирование
Ð”ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ ÐœÐ¾ÐºÑ€ÑƒÑˆÐ¸Ð½ - Порошенко о Дебальцево
Ð”ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ ÐœÐ¾ÐºÑ€ÑƒÑˆÐ¸Ð½ - Выход из Дебальцево
Из района Дебальцево было выведено 100% украинÑких Ñил
УкраинÑкие военные оÑтавлÑÑŽÑ‚ Дебальцево
Ð’ ÐртемовÑк продолжает прибывать большое количеÑтво раненых украинÑких Ñолдат
Минобороны Украины подтвердило информацию о плененных военных
There was a government offensive in the south, from Mariupol' towards Novoazovsk. It didn't go well, and Azov btln lost two Cougar armored cars, one was captured by the rebels.
Вахтенный журнал Ñтареющего пирата - Слухи и Ñплетни нашего аула...
bmpd - Полк "Ðзов" терÑет технику
Photos from the warzone.
Вахтенный журнал Ñтареющего пирата - ДебальцевÑкий "мешок"...
Вахтенный журнал Ñтареющего пирата - ВСРin action...
Вахтенный журнал Ñтареющего пирата - Трофейные фото из Ðикишино...
Вахтенный журнал Ñтареющего пирата - Украина по разные Ñтороны прицела...
Вахтенный журнал Ñтареющего пирата - Ещё битое железо из Черногоровки...
Вахтенный журнал Ñтареющего пирата - Украина по разные Ñтороны прицела...
The rebels say that the ceasefire is being observed.
Ополченцы Ñообщили о Ñохранении режима тишины в ДонбаÑÑе
Ukrainian troops shot down a UAV.
УкраинÑкие военные Ñбили очередной беÑпилотник в районе КраматорÑка
Shelling of major cities in the east seems to have stopped.
Ðа воÑтоке Украины отмечаетÑÑ Ð¿Ñ€ÐµÐºÑ€Ð°Ñ‰ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ðµ обÑтрела крупных городов
Ukrainian volunteers are upgrading the Cougar armored cars.
УкраинÑкие волонтеры модернизировали бронеавтомобиль "Кугуар"
First Saxon armored trucks, with weapons, are being sent to the front.
Первые бронемашины Saxon Ñ ÑƒÑтановленным вооружением отправили в зону ÐТО
bmpd - Первые 10 купленных Украиной бронетранÑпортеров Saxon добралиÑÑŒ до войÑк
Ukraine is conducting early release of officer candidates.
Ð”ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ ÐœÐ¾ÐºÑ€ÑƒÑˆÐ¸Ð½ - ДоÑрочный выпуÑк
The US decided not to pass additional sanctions against Russia.
Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: ÑØÀ îòêàçàëèñü ââîäèòü íîâûå ñàíêöèè ïðîòèâ Ðîññèè
Checkpoints in Rostov region are being equipped with roadblocks, after a truck full of drunk rebel fighters ran off the road, into Russia, presumably by accident.
Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: Ïóíêòû ïðîïóñêà â Ðîñòîâñêîé îáëàñòè íà÷àëè îáîðóäîâàòü áëîêèðàòîðàìè ïîñëå òîãî, êàê ïüÿíûå îïîë÷åíöû íà ÊàìÀÇå ñíåñëè çàãðàæäåíèå
The Russian UN Security Council resolution has been passed, confirming Ukrainian territorial integrity (minus Crimea, I guess), and supporting Minsk-2.
Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: Ñîâáåç ÎÎÍ ïðèíÿë ðîññèéñêóþ ðåçîëþöèþ ïî Óêðàèíå
A detailed breakdown of the rebel forces.
The DNR fields:
DNR Republican Guard Regiment
1st Motor-Rifle Brigade Slavyansk
3rd Motor-Rifles Bde Gorlovka
OBON Kalmius, Arty Bde
5th Motor-Rifle Bde Oplot
7th Bde Slavyansk
1st Independent BTG Somalia
The LNR fields:
2nd Independent Bde
4th Independent Bde
1st Cossack Regiment
bmpd - ÐžÐ±Ð¾Ð·Ð½Ð°Ñ‡ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ Ð¸ знаки на технике Ñил ДÐРи ЛÐÐ
gazzzwp
Member
You sum the situation up very well. This could well be the start of something much more serious and could end up engulfing huge parts of Europe. Now is the time for the EU to be ready militarily in a defensive posture. The only difference between this situation and Poland in 1939 is that the Germans were up front and open about their invasion. Putin cannot even be honest about his invasion.
Russian bombers again escorted away from UK coastline yesterday.
- Status