The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread

swerve

Super Moderator
This might mean that Russia is under an obligation to keep it's negotiation promises. But it does nothing to address the point I made. At this point any treaty likely to end this war will be under threat of continued hostilities. By that logic Ukraine isn't bound to keep any treaty it signs. In which case, why should Russia sign any treaty when Ukraine by definition won't be bound by it? Why not keep NATO at bay with a fistful of nukes, while simply battering Ukraine into non-existence? Negotiations are give and take. What incentive is there for Russia to sign a deal that Ukraine won't be obligated to stick to?
The problem with that is that there's no incentive for Ukraine to sign a deal unless Russia can be forced to stick to it, because Russia's shown that its promises are worthless. So, any deal which leaves Russia able to invade Ukraine again is pointless, from a Ukrainian point of view. Hence Ukraine's wish for the protection that NATO membership would give.

Putin's created a situation from which there's no easy way out, for him or anyone else. Unless he makes big concessions, to show good faith, such as giving up claims to Ukrainian territory & withdrawing, why should Ukraine agree? Anything which weakens Ukraine further is just setting it up for the next Russian attack, in Ukrainian eyes - & that's a logical vew.
 

seaspear

Well-Known Member
With Hungry having a position of neutral at best I cant see them allowing Ukraine to join N.A.T.O it only takes one country to say no. I'm not sure if there is anything stopping Ukraine inviting foreign forces to be stationed there e.g. Poland and even U.N troops along the border
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
With Hungry having a position of neutral at best I cant see them allowing Ukraine to join N.A.T.O it only takes one country to say no. I'm not sure if there is anything stopping Ukraine inviting foreign forces to be stationed there e.g. Poland and even U.N troops along the border
What's the process for removing a NATO member, a unanimous vote by all other members?
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
With Hungry having a position of neutral at best I cant see them allowing Ukraine to join N.A.T.O it only takes one country to say no. I'm not sure if there is anything stopping Ukraine inviting foreign forces to be stationed there e.g. Poland and even U.N troops along the border
Hungary is not the only country that could veto Ukrainian membership though. I suspect that while they're a likely suspect there are quite a few NATO members that would prefer Ukraine not join.

The problem with that is that there's no incentive for Ukraine to sign a deal unless Russia can be forced to stick to it, because Russia's shown that its promises are worthless. So, any deal which leaves Russia able to invade Ukraine again is pointless, from a Ukrainian point of view. Hence Ukraine's wish for the protection that NATO membership would give.

Putin's created a situation from which there's no easy way out, for him or anyone else. Unless he makes big concessions, to show good faith, such as giving up claims to Ukrainian territory & withdrawing, why should Ukraine agree? Anything which weakens Ukraine further is just setting it up for the next Russian attack, in Ukrainian eyes - & that's a logical vew.
I think this is correct too hence the current unwillingness to negotiate. But this adds another layer, it doesn't refute the fundamental problem of getting Ukraine to stick to the deal. And the argument that any deal that involves threat of force is therefore non-binding is problematic. I suspect the real resolution will come with results on the battlefield. Not because one side is defeated but because both sides will be more willing to negotiate.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Is the suggestion that if Russia is given everything they want that they will stick to the" deal'
No. The suggestion was made that Ukraine would not be bound by a treaty signed under threat of continued hostilities. The counter point I made was that this undermines the possibility of any settlement of any kind because Ukraine would simply not be bound by it, and it makes no sense for Russia to sign a deal that's only binding on one side. The suggestion was then made that the deal if signed would still be binding on Russia, since Russia isn't under threat of force (that's the argument). I made the point that even if this was the case, this does nothing to address the underlying issue. The reality of this war points to an outcome that will not be either side getting everything they want, and it's looking likelier and likelier that Ukraine will have to sign a deal they're not completely happy with or face continued Russian attack.

Personally I suspect Russia will stick to the deal if they're given everything they asked for. It's just not a realistic scenario.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
In 1994, Ukraine agreed to transfer these weapons to Russia and became a party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, in exchange for assurances from Russia, the United States and United Kingdom to respect the Ukrainian independence and sovereignty in the existing borders. It must be now regretting that decision.

It isn’t something that gets bought up but if I were a small nation possessing a nuclear arsenal then I am keeping it.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
something that gets bought up but if I were a small nation possessing a nuclear arsenal then I am keeping it.
Those nukes from my understanding Ukraine has no codes on using it anyway. The codes stay in Russia. Besides Ukraine were broke and can't expect to maintain it properly let alone secure them. US are concern on Russian ability in 90's to safe guard USSR Nukes, they are going to be much more concern if Ukraine still hold some of them.

In 90's Nuclear proliferation risk from ex USSR Republics were much more concerning. Having Russia as sole holder and guardian of all USSR Nukes are much more important. Besides at that time Ukraine more concern with Russia agreement to let them go separately then holding Nukes. Enough studies even from Western sources that say Eastern and South East Ukraine are ready to be part of Russia, if Russia (in this part Yeltsin) shown insistence on that.

By that logic using condition on 90's, Russia now must be regretting why they don't absorb East and South Ukraine at that time. Even US are bit surprised Russia not insisting to keep what's now call Nuovo Russia. But then who in Russia in 90's will ever think that little siblings of them will turn their back later on.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
In 1994, Ukraine agreed to transfer these weapons to Russia and became a party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, in exchange for assurances from Russia, the United States and United Kingdom to respect the Ukrainian independence and sovereignty in the existing borders. It must be now regretting that decision.

It isn’t something that gets bought up but if I were a small nation possessing a nuclear arsenal then I am keeping it.
This keeps getting brought up and it's nonsense. If Ukraine was the kind of country that could maintain a credible nuclear deterrent it would also be the kind of country that Russia could simply annex pieces of in '14. Ukraine's internal dysfunction was key to Russia's ability to interfere in Ukraine.
 

seaspear

Well-Known Member
Russia was a stakeholder in that internal dysfunction if not covertly overtly to provide reasons to interfere , This article suggests the timeline and events that precipitated Ukraine's wishes to join N.A.T.O, certainly the requirements for joining the E.U would of alleviated President Putin's concerns about corruption and Nazism in Ukraine if this was genuine though these same behaviours can be found in Russia
 

Redshift

Active Member
With Hungry having a position of neutral at best I cant see them allowing Ukraine to join N.A.T.O it only takes one country to say no. I'm not sure if there is anything stopping Ukraine inviting foreign forces to be stationed there e.g. Poland and even U.N troops along the border
I'm sure that bi lateral or multi lateral defence treaties can be signed outside of NATO membership.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
I'm sure that bi lateral or multi lateral defence treaties can be signed outside of NATO membership.
Poland might be keen on that. Polish policy seems to be to keep the Russians as far away as possible.

In theory, every NATO member except Hungary could sign a multilateral defence treaty with Ukraine, with almost the same terms.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Poland might be keen on that. Polish policy seems to be to keep the Russians as far away as possible.

In theory, every NATO member except Hungary could sign a multilateral defence treaty with Ukraine, with almost the same terms.
I think something along those lines is the solution to Russian demands of Ukraine not being a NATO member.
 

Larry_L

Active Member
I found a few things yesterday that seem interesting. As expected, there has been a bounty put on F-16s by the Russians. In addition, a much larger reward has been offered to any Ukrainian pilot who delivers an F-16.



A google translate of the above:

"Attention Ukrainian pilots!!! My good friends have asked me to bring you the following information: Exclusively for personal purposes, I will purchase an airworthy F-16 aircraft, of any modification. Payment in cash, immediately at the parking lot after landing - $1,000,000 (one million dollars) USA. If there are interesting pendants, the amount will be increased. I will provide assistance in ferrying, obtaining Russian citizenship for the ferryman and his family, as well as in further employment. For all suggestions and questions write @RussianMerchantsOfEbony t.me/fbchatik/1321545"

I was surprised by the following. Even Russia has mostly left civilian ships alone. This could be tangled up for many years. Ukraine has seized a Turkish-owned civilian cargo ship, and detained the captain for looting Ukrainian grain.


Physicians for human rights has documented over 1300 attacks on the Ukrainian health care system during the war. Almost an average of two a day.


One of the Stans I never heard of, ( Bashkortostan ), allegedly has a company of fighters opposing Russia in Ukraine who recently captured one of their citizens who was fighting for Russia.

x.com

A vid of an attack on a S-300 system.

 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
Israel is retiring its Barak 1, single-seat F-16C aircraft. These are old aircraft but were modernized over the years to keep them relevant. It's possible these will find their way to Ukraine in one way or another.

The transfer of up to 8 Patriot batteries was enabled, among other things, by the recently passed US aid to Israel in the form of additional funding and expedited delivery of David's Sling components.

It is possible a similar model is pursued here, trading old aircraft for fewer new ones.

When the IAF sold its F-16A/B Netz aircraft, it was widely publicized and the IAF was looking for buyers for a long time. Now it retires without explaining what will happen to them. It is therefore easy to assume a purpose or a buyer was already found for them.


 

Fredled

Active Member
News:
Greece is going to transfer 30 F16's to Ukraine.
Thought they would like the US to pay for the upgrade. I understand that the MOD30 F16's they want to give is an old upgrade.
So far the US hasn't participated in the F16 coalition.

More and more talks about F16's, here dutch ones, being en route to or delivered soon. When they talk like that, it often means that it's already done.

______________________
This might mean that Russia is under an obligation to keep it's negotiation promises. But it does nothing to address the point I made. At this point any treaty likely to end this war will be under threat of continued hostilities. By that logic Ukraine isn't bound to keep any treaty it signs. In which case, why should Russia sign any treaty when Ukraine by definition won't be bound by it? Why not keep NATO at bay with a fistful of nukes, while simply battering Ukraine into non-existence? Negotiations are give and take. What incentive is there for Russia to sign a deal that Ukraine won't be obligated to stick to?
You answered your own question: Russia is not interested in any deal right now, and prefer continuing the war because they know that a deal, under current conditions, won't be valid.

Of course it depends if the deal will be acceptable to Ukraine or not, with many gradients of acceptability, and fairness, in between. If a deal is not fair but signed nonetheless because Ukraine is on the verge of collapse, then the agreement can be requestioned a few years later. It doesn't mean restarting the war immediately but withdrawing from the agreement, preferably with negotiations about another agreement.

If the deal is fair or relatively fair, given that Russia could ask more, then Ukraine will be bound to it. Let's say, Russians withdraw from a lot of territories in exchange of the promise to never join NATO, IMO, this is relatively fair, and such a deal should be acceptable and observed. I say relatively because it's never fair to annex by force territories, but given that Ukraine would never be able to recover these territories otherwise, it can be deemed fair. It also depends on how a fair amount of territories would be defined. But you see what I mean. It's just an example.

Reversely, Russia accepting that Ukraine joins NATO in exchange of keeping a lot of territories under their control, not all but more than in the previous proposal, could also be a semi-acceptable deal. Here again it can be discussed.

______________________________

I believe you should also include the effects of the sanctions on Russia ,its not just about missiles ,

Problems mount in Russian economy as government tries to finance war machine
It's not just the effect of the sanctions. It's the effect of war itself. When 40% pf the budget goes to the military, it's clear that it's untenable. Factories and companies potentially useful for the military have to allocate 20% of their work time to military orders when requested. There is new war tax almost everybody has to pay to support the war in Ukraine. Exempt are families whose one member is serving in Ukraine.
Furthermore, the families of soldiers fighting in Ukraine, to the extent that these soldiers have families because number of them don't, are getting rich quickly thanks to the high salaires while the rest of the population is impoverishing.
These salaries being paid in Rubbles, this is causing inflation locally.
Last years exporting companies had to sell for Rubbles 60% of their foreign currencies received from exports. This year it was lowered to 40% but still a large amount.

A lot of bloggers are laughing about the US dollar being dead and replaced by BRICS currencies on new banking platforms. The reality is that Russia being forced the accept Yuans (and perhaps Rupees too) for their oil exports is a big problem for Russia.

Betting on taxing the riches is also questionable since the riches are less and less rich or have left Russia completely. (Note that they also leave Europe and the US by fear of asset freeze. They and those who escape Russia move to Asian and Arab countries.)

Those who are getting richer does so with government money. Taxing them will only recover some of the money the government had just paid them minutes before. It won't bring anything.
 

Fredled

Active Member
Redshift said:
I'm sure that bi lateral or multi lateral defence treaties can be signed outside of NATO membership.
That's what they are already doing. Ukraine signs one security agreement with another NATO or non-NATO country every week.

Feanor said:
I think something along those lines is the solution to Russian demands of Ukraine not being a NATO member.
It doesn't make sens for Putin to ask that if it's not to keep the possibility to attack or invade Ukraine again in the future. If he doesn't intend to do so, why should he give away something valuable in exchange of this?

IMO, Putin doesn't intent to attack again a secnd time in the future after peace is eventually settled. He is asking that only to make sure Ukraine rejects his peace proposal and blame Ukrainians for refusing to negotiate.

Furthermore, dropping bombs daily on a country and then expecting this country not to seek a defensive alliance with others is naive, to say the least. Putin knows that.
 

KipPotapych

Well-Known Member
Investigative piece in a Ukrainian outlet about Krynky. 788 soldiers are listed as missing, while 262 were officially brought back and buried. Consistent with other reports I cited here previously, troops could not rotate for months due to the amount of wounded needed to be evacuated in the harshest conditions, wounded had to wait weeks for evacuation, “the boys lay with their limbs torn off for 10 days, and the boats could not come”. My understanding is that these were all some of the most capable and dedicated fighters Ukraine has had in this war.

According to the troops interviewed, Russians “do not take prisoners in Krynky”. However, in the exchange lists and those listed as captured there are names of those who served in Krynky, which is also mentioned in the article.

Tavria battalion spokesperson said to this media outlet that they are still conducting operations in Krynky. Footage geolocated by the outlet, however, shows that to be false.

One of the commanders said “defense and expansion of the bridgehead on Krynky was a necessary task, otherwise the Russians themselves would try to land on boats on the right bank”. Well, first of all there was never any “expansion of the bridgehead”. Second, who cares if the Russians “tried to land on boats on the right bank” - their fate would be predictable. Third, best men were spent on this “operation”. Like in Bakhmut, they were “grinding Russians” and ended up losing (reportedly/confirmed) 8,000 thousand of literally their best man, while Russians reportedly lost 19,647, 17,175 of whom were prisoners Jack Watling of RUSI had this to say about it:

The Ukrainians succeeded in forcing Russia to culminate upon capturing the city. However, while Ukraine lost fewer troops than Russia the experience of those troops was much higher, so that the battle of Bakhmut saw Ukraine lose more experience from its force than Russia.

Immoral, but effective they called it.

(That article cited above is a great read about Bakhmut and Wagner, by the way).

The article also suggests that Krynky was the only place on the left bank they were able to establish (and maintain) a position until the village was levelled, which happened many months ago.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Investigative piece in a Ukrainian outlet about Krynky. 788 soldiers are listed as missing, while 262 were officially brought back and buried. Consistent with other reports I cited here previously, troops could not rotate for months due to the amount of wounded needed to be evacuated in the harshest conditions, wounded had to wait weeks for evacuation, “the boys lay with their limbs torn off for 10 days, and the boats could not come”. My understanding is that these were all some of the most capable and dedicated fighters Ukraine has had in this war.

According to the troops interviewed, Russians “do not take prisoners in Krynky”. However, in the exchange lists and those listed as captured there are names of those who served in Krynky, which is also mentioned in the article.

Tavria battalion spokesperson said to this media outlet that they are still conducting operations in Krynky. Footage geolocated by the outlet, however, shows that to be false.

One of the commanders said “defense and expansion of the bridgehead on Krynky was a necessary task, otherwise the Russians themselves would try to land on boats on the right bank”. Well, first of all there was never any “expansion of the bridgehead”. Second, who cares if the Russians “tried to land on boats on the right bank” - their fate would be predictable. Third, best men were spent on this “operation”. Like in Bakhmut, they were “grinding Russians” and ended up losing (reportedly/confirmed) 8,000 thousand of literally their best man, while Russians reportedly lost 19,647, 17,175 of whom were prisoners Jack Watling of RUSI had this to say about it:

The Ukrainians succeeded in forcing Russia to culminate upon capturing the city. However, while Ukraine lost fewer troops than Russia the experience of those troops was much higher, so that the battle of Bakhmut saw Ukraine lose more experience from its force than Russia.

Immoral, but effective they called it.

(That article cited above is a great read about Bakhmut and Wagner, by the way).

The article also suggests that Krynky was the only place on the left bank they were able to establish (and maintain) a position until the village was levelled, which happened many months ago.
We know the last part isn't true. They held a bridge head under the remains of the Antonov bridge, until Russia finally destroyed it. It was less significant and lasted even less time, but it did exist. As for the rest, yeah, it's obvious and makes sense. Massive losses for virtually no real gain.
 
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