The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread

KipPotapych

Well-Known Member
This is getting tiresome. I am proposing that massive organizations with millions of dollars to spend and the ability to employ experts of every stripe are lazy for using Oryx's numbers without even attempting to verify them themselves, much less create their own database. It's surprising that Oryx is the only person doing this at scale given how much interest there is in the war from both governmental and non-governmental organizations.

As I said previously, I lack the expertise needed to properly identify the many extremely murky photos used. I would not expect random people on the internet to take this on, and I never suggested I would.
Maybe contact the massive organizations with millions of dollars?

In reality, no one cares if the number is 7,234 or 7,412. It is not material. No one is going to spend massive resources to do the count that most don't care about. An average reader doesn’t care if the number is 11,642 or 9,946. Therefore, the media outlets are not going to spent their, I would assume limited, resources on such a counting activity (most probably do not even have sufficient resources or expertise of their own). Why would they? I don’t get it. I also do not even see these numbers from Oryx all too often because there relatively limited amount if people who are interested. Most just want to know who is winning, if that. It is really enthusiasts and “geeks” that care most about the most accurate numbers.

I would personally rather see investigations into alleged war crimes, missile strikes on alleged civilian infrastructure, etc. Which they do to some extent and best of their abilities, in my opinion.

Same goes for various MoDs. Why would they spend their resources counting the number of tanks destroyed in Ukraine and verify every image Oryx posts? They work with Ukrainian MoD that probably provides them with their data, they have their own intel assessments, some based on reports such as Oryx, and make their decisions accordingly. They do not care if the actual number is 8,523 or 8,946. It doesn’t matter.

So, I am not sure I even understand what your gripe is?
 

Redshift

Active Member
This is getting tiresome. I am proposing that massive organizations with millions of dollars to spend and the ability to employ experts of every stripe are lazy for using Oryx's numbers without even attempting to verify them themselves, much less create their own database. It's surprising that Oryx is the only person doing this at scale given how much interest there is in the war from both governmental and non-governmental organizations.

As I said previously, I lack the expertise needed to properly identify the many extremely murky photos used. I would not expect random people on the internet to take this on, and I never suggested I would.
Can't argue with that, it is indeed tiresome.
 

Redshift

Active Member
This is getting tiresome. I am proposing that massive organizations with millions of dollars to spend and the ability to employ experts of every stripe are lazy for using Oryx's numbers without even attempting to verify them themselves, much less create their own database. It's surprising that Oryx is the only person doing this at scale given how much interest there is in the war from both governmental and non-governmental organizations.

As I said previously, I lack the expertise needed to properly identify the many extremely murky photos used. I would not expect random people on the internet to take this on, and I never suggested I would.
By posting here you are proposing nothing to anyone that has any real say, you are deliberately muddying the waters.
 

vikingatespam

Well-Known Member
This is getting tiresome.
On this we can agree.

I am proposing that massive organizations with millions of dollars to spend and the ability to employ experts of every stripe are lazy for using Oryx's numbers without even attempting to verify them themselves
This is an assumption on your part.

It's surprising that Oryx is the only person doing this at scale
No, Oryx (a "they", its more than one person) is not the only entity doing this. You have been told this already.

As I said previously, I lack the expertise needed to properly identify the many extremely murky photos used.
Then look at some not murky ones. No one is going to fault you if you cant tell between a T-80 BV and a T-80 BVM. This isnt the point - which is that you, like anyone else, can run photos through easily available online photo forensics programs.

It does no one any good to continue asking for well-funded organizations to perform their own analyses (i.e., reinvent the wheel), then publicly publish that data for no gain for them. Should I ask the NSA to publish their accounting of RU armor losses ?
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
This is getting tiresome. I am proposing that massive organizations with millions of dollars to spend and the ability to employ experts of every stripe are lazy for using Oryx's numbers without even attempting to verify them themselves, much less create their own database. It's surprising that Oryx is the only person doing this at scale given how much interest there is in the war from both governmental and non-governmental organizations.

As I said previously, I lack the expertise needed to properly identify the many extremely murky photos used. I would not expect random people on the internet to take this on, and I never suggested I would.
He is clearly not the only one. Others have been quoted here as part of this very conversation...
 

vikingatespam

Well-Known Member
A further claim of another RU naval vessel being damaged:


Supposedly shows a Buyan-M trailing smoke after being damaged (sea drone) ? Im assuming black smoke is bad so this may be something, but as usual, we need some confirmation.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Things are starting to leak out on Avdeevka but there is still no clarity and I haven't seen confirmation of either Russian losses or Russian gains.

A much discussed on Russian social media photo reveals Russian forces riding a BTR-90. This is, contrary to popular opinion, a project that was in fact completed and accepted for service in 2008. It just never went into mass production. A number of LRIP vehicles were produced but how many exactly is debated from "several" to "several dozen". If the number is closer to the latter and they've been kept in relatively good condition, activating them makes sense. In the photo we can only see one. Unit is mentioned as Russia's 114th Bde.

EDIT: This may be the attack on the refuse mound in the north, with the tanks laying down suppression to allow infantry to advance. There are also claims that this is the same unit whose column we saw above getting hit.


The video that still is from is here, and shows 114 bde tankers firing. In the column we see one BMP, one BTR-90, and one BTR-80 (82?).


Russian Ka-52 pair with a mix of Vikhrs and S-8 rocket pods, and an Mi-8 variant likely for picking up pilots if they go down, flying very low altitude near Avdeevka. Based on the altitude, I suspect the intent is lobbing rockets. Typically Vikhr strikes are done from very long ranges at very slow speeds. Though of course anything is possible.


Allegedly a photo of an incoming Ukrainian rocket, shot by their army aviation. Photo from a Russian correspondent. He claims this is Ukrainian aviation lobbing rockets towards Russian positions with poor effect.


Allegedly massive launches of Russian illumination rounds somewhere near Avdeevka. This might indicate night combat taking place.


Russian TOS-1 strikes near Avdeevka. TOS-1 and Smerch strikes were reported there initially.


Another shot of the Ocheretino rail station, after Russian strikes. The building is basically destroyed.

 
Last edited:

Milne Bay

Active Member
A further claim of another RU naval vessel being damaged:


Supposedly shows a Buyan-M trailing smoke after being damaged (sea drone) ? Im assuming black smoke is bad so this may be something, but as usual, we need some confirmation.
Hard to tell what has damaged it. Unconfirmed reports say that it hit one of Russia's own mines, unless that was a separate ship.
Have to wait and see. Feanor may have more information.
MB
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group

Rybar claim that the ship did indeed being attack by Ukrainian underwater drones. However the damage mostly on steering mechanism, thus consider minor as crew still manage to bring the ship back to the port by its own power.

Rybar also acknowledge the Russian progress in Avdeevka, facing difficulties. Rybar off course bias on Russian cause. However so far it is also quite 'honest' on the progress and situations in the ground. More so relative to then Ukrainian ones or even some other Russian ones.
 

vikingatespam

Well-Known Member

Rybar claim that the ship did indeed being attack by Ukrainian underwater drones. However the damage mostly on steering mechanism, thus consider minor as crew still manage to bring the ship back to the port by its own power.

Rybar also acknowledge the Russian progress in Avdeevka, facing difficulties. Rybar off course bias on Russian cause. However so far it is also quite 'honest' on the progress and situations in the ground. More so relative to then Ukrainian ones or even some other Russian ones.
If thats the smoking ship that we saw in the linked video, that would appear to be bit more than minor damage. From that video it also appears all the Black Sea drydocks are occupied, making for ship repairs a bit problematic.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Updates.

Russia has resumed it's slow advance on Kupyansk, gaining a few strong points towards Sin'kovka, and a couple towards Ivanovka from the east. Ukraine has reportedly set up pontoon crossings replacing at least two of the destroyed ones. Ukrainian reinforcements are reported, but in relatively low numbers.


Russian Nona-SVK have resurfaced on the Krasniy Liman axis. This is likely part of the Center MD units that have deployed there recently.


Russia's advance on Avdeevka appears halted. Russia has reportedly backed off part of the refuse mound, but still holds the north-eastern high points on it. Russian positions are currently in the fog of war, so it's unclear whether fighting is taking place. If Russia still holds the elevated rail mound, the refuse mound, and the 200m ridge between Vodyanoe and Severnoe, they will be in a position to resume attacks after a break. If not, it will be starting from scratch.


Some footage of a concrete bunker captured by Russian forces near Avdeevka. Ukraine has spent years fortifying the area so it will be hard to take.


First confirmed use and loss of a BTR-50 on the front lines, Avdeevka. Next to it is what looks like a knocked out T-64BV, ex-DNR.


Russian FPV drone strikes into a cellar, Avdeevka outskirts.


A Caesar howitzer got hit reportedly near Avdeevka. If accurate, they are a recent appearance there.


A train burns in the Avdeevka chemical plant. It's the likely source of the smoke that's been observed.


Smoke continues to rise over Avdeevka.


Battle damage from Russian airstrikes, allegedly against Ukrainian staging areas/positions. Avdeevka.


In Zaporozhye, after a pause, Ukraine has resumed attacks on the Rabotino salient, but has not made any substantial gains so far. Russian counter-attacks are reported in parts of the salient, meaning we are likely seeing the same pattern that we saw in the Vremyevskiy bulge. Defend for a bit, retreat, hit your own former positions with strikes, then counter-attack.


Other interesting tidbits.


A Forpost-R has been spotted with two KAB-20S guided bombs. It's unclear if Russia can continue to produce the type in light of sanctions. It's also unclear if they would make a big difference. Ukrainian SHORAD has taken some serious losses, so presumably as long as it avoided the bigger SAMs it could do something on the front line. But it's unclear.


A Russian decoy that Ukraine apparently struck repeatedly. Both sides are actively using decoys, some more effectively then others.


Some footage of the barriers into the Sevastopol' harbor.


An interesting Russian BREM-1 with ERA sideskirts and a roof cage.


Russian BTR-70s finally made an appearance. There is speculation that elements of Russia's newly formed 25th Army are riding these near Kupyansk. In general this is our first confirmation that Russia running low on wheeled light armor. Prior to this it was almost exclusively BTR-82s, with some BTR-80s.


A rare Russian Buk-M3. Note every time we see these, they're always carrying only a few missiles. There is likely a shortage. A HARM that obviously missed is sticking out of the ground.


A Ukrainian KS-19 on Tatra truck. Presumably the intent is to use it against ground targets. It's not a bad idea in principle.

 

Larry_L

Active Member
Some improvised munitions I think. Allegedly Russian. I thought the word flechete was used, but cannot figure that.


Ukraine recovering a tank.


Qatar is working on bringing Ukrainian children home. This group is supposed to be just the beginning, although Russia denies kidnapping children.


Dons weekly again. There are many links here, ranging from Russian attacks in several areas, to Russian aviation and vehicle losses. There is a lot of coverage of the Avdiivka assault and other areas of the front. There are several videos of a large column of Russian vehicles. There seemed to be over 20 vehicles in the column. Ukraine is taking out Russian backhoes. I guess they are tired of more and more trenches.
Warning. Footage of corpses in some links.


Part 2 of the weekly update. Black sea operations, and grain exports. Economic issues. More air defense systems for the winter, some of them leased. A few more 155mm shells.

 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Some improvised munitions I think. Allegedly Russian. I thought the word flechete was used, but cannot figure that.
Nothing improvised, those are regular 122mm Sh1 (Ш1 ) Flechette rounds with the ogive cover over the payload section taken off. Pretty banged up and rusty though.

The empty case with the "bag" and "disc" shown in the second half is the cased charge for firing them from what's likely a 2S1 standing behind them.
 

KipPotapych

Well-Known Member
Nothing improvised, those are regular 122mm Sh1 (Ш1 ) Flechette rounds with the ogive cover over the payload section taken off. Pretty banged up and rusty though.

The empty case with the "bag" and "disc" shown in the second half is the cased charge for firing them from what's likely a 2S1 standing behind them.
The author of the video claims ZSh2, which is 152mm, but I stand to be corrected.

Edit: if I recall correctly, Ukraine has been accusing Russia of using (rather providing to LNR/DNR forces) these projectiles since before the invasion; I can’t recall the exact year, but the active fighting of 2014-15-ish would make it a good bet.
 
Last edited:

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The author of the video claims ZSh2, which is 152mm, but I stand to be corrected.
Would have to see the nose cap that they took off of all of them, that's the main difference (on the 152mm it's slightly lengthened relative to the rest of the shell).

122mm : CAT-UXO - 122mm sh1 projectile
152mm : CAT-UXO - 152mm sh2 projectile

(small note on these links: the 152mm projectile shown has the fuze screwed in, the 122mm doesn't)

I can’t recall the exact year, but the active fighting of 2014-15-ish would make it a good bet.
The other way around in 2014, DNR accused Ukraine of using flechette munitions: Surgeons in Ukraine's rebel Donetsk confirm cluster bomb usage
 

KipPotapych

Well-Known Member
ATACMS in Ukraine, according to the reports:


They claim to have destroyed 9 helis and other assets using the newly delivered missiles:

 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
It appears Ukraine has launched their first ATACMS strike, against the Russian airfield in Berdyansk where helos are based. So far we don't have accurate BDA but it seems they hit munition storage and damaged some helos.

 
Latest article from Adam Tooze regarding US production and capacity to support both Israel and Ukraine at the same time. As he notes, the limiting factor is industrial production, not money. I think Ukraine is in a precarious position with the failure of their summer offensive and the clear priority that US seems to have for Israel. If things in Israel drag out and expand, can the US actually produce enough ammunition to supply both?

I suspect that over the next year we will see a greater intensity effort by Russia (seemingly already begun) across the whole front to try to bleed Ukrainian stockpiles of equipment and ammunition. With the Israel situation kicking off already, when will Ukraine receive its next strike package? The answer depends not just on the economic but also the political situation in the US.

I'd be curious to know what others think the strategic priorities for Ukraine in the next year+ should be. I'm not sure I can see a way for them to regain the initiative short of some kind of political catastrophe in Russia.

 
Top