The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
NATO AirPower is all that is needed. Destroy their air defense capability in short order, then interdict any resupply from foreign nations. Then start on their ground troops. 6 weeks and they’d be defenseless. Iraq is a guide what will happen If they start against a NATO

Art
You can only do so much with airpower. Iraq is absolutely not a guide and Russia is orders of magnitude stronger than Iraq. Sooner or later Putin will run out of ass-kissing incompetent generals and will be forced to accept people that are capable despite not liking him. Hopefully the war ends before this happens, a better outcome for both sides.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
:D

sorry to tell you this, but if you look into the passports of most of eastern 'ukrainers', you will see that their national identity is russian.

like it or not;

Lenin has not taken something away from the ukrainers, but gave them something (the eastern part).

so, why are you talking so negtively about him now?
Just something to keep in mind is that their current President was born as a Russian speaker of Jewish ancestry and leaned Ukrainian later in life
When you say "their national identity is Russian." I think you may be quoting their "Ethnic identity", which is different to their citizenship and the rights loyalties and obligations that this carries. though of course their was cross boarder mixing prior to this war starting.
 
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Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Just something to keep in mind is that their current President was born as a Russian speaker of Jewish ancestry and leaned Ukrainian later in life
When you say "their national identity is Russian." I think you may be quoting their "Ethnic identity", which is different to their citizenship and the rights loyalties and obligations that this carries. though of course their was cross boarder mixing prior to this war starting.
Thank you for the correct interpretation and explanation. On a side note, in Russian the words nationality and ethnicity are a bit more muddled. In common speech in Russia nationality is used to mean ethnic identity. I suspect this may have been a language issue on his part. But it is very important to understand the distinction as it is vital to this conflict. And Russia often conflates the categories intentionally.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Russia and Ukraine disagree about where those borders are.
But they did agree until 2014, when RussiaPutin changed itshis mind. Putin keeps changing his mind about them, in fact: for some months he's been saying that the border includes territories which he'd not previously claimed, which have large majorities of self-declared Ukrainians, & which haven't been under Russian control since the fall of the USSR. They didn't even have borders with Russia.

So, all we need is for Putin to change his mind again so it's the same as Ukraine & everyone else thinks, & there's no problem.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Thank you for the correct interpretation and explanation. On a side note, in Russian the words nationality and ethnicity are a bit more muddled. In common speech in Russia nationality is used to mean ethnic identity. I suspect this may have been a language issue on his part. But it is very important to understand the distinction as it is vital to this conflict. And Russia often conflates the categories intentionally.
And sometimes intentionally conflates language & identity. I don't think that'd work for us. We don't really want to annex most of the USA - or even Ireland. ;)
 

swerve

Super Moderator
I guess it is depends on how the progress on this war later on, toward Russian build up. ...
Look at material losses in Ukraine, where Russia has had huge material superiority & has faced an enemy which mostly has Soviet-era weapons older than & inferior to those Russia has, but has not only failed to win, but has lost over half of its initial gains, & far more hardware than its adversary. That very strongly suggests that NATO forces would have crushed Russian forces in conventional open warfare.
 

seaspear

Well-Known Member
There's an expression 'It's not the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog" that comes to mind ,certainly lessons from Afghanistan and reliance on material advantage.

'
 

Scott Elaurant

Well-Known Member
1) This is not an 'extern' war, as it was > Soviet Union - Afghanistan (or USA -Vietnam; USA - Iraq) -
from which you could argue:
The population is going to be fed up with the war; the 'sympathy' ranking will decrease after a while.

Like it or Not -- if you look at all maps from the last 3-5 centuries, you will see that the eastern part of ukraine has always been under russian (zar) government / influence.

You won't see a decrease in popularity of the war among the civ. population.
Ruski’s comments, like Putin’s rambles, are historically selective to the point of being nonsense. They are designed to appeal to the contemporary Russian political mood rather than to convince anyone independent or objective. Why bother? Does Ruski think Muscovites read this blog?

History is a two edged sword. If we go back over the past two centuries, never mind 3 to 5, a lot of current Russian territory would belong to other countries that still demand it back. Vladivostok was only founded in 1860. Most Russian eastern territory, including Pacific naval bases, historically belonged to China or Japan.

None of this overrules Ukraine’s right to self determination. In legal and political terms, Ruski’s claims are nonsense.

Ruski’s comments highlight a basic problem with contemporary Russia in the modern world. Russia went through a revolution and a civil war. But Russia never really went through a renaissance or an Age of Enlightenment. Concepts of the rule of law and individual rights have yet to take hold. These are foundational to capitalism and democracy and explain why the latter failed. So 17th century notions of imperial borders still have currency.

Likewise Ukraine was not duped or bought off by western money. In fact, prior to this war Ukraine had received very little western aid (our mistake) as Germany in particular clung to the delusion that post cold war Russia could be bargained with.

Whereas post cold war Russia received tens of billions of dollars from Germany and USA to help stabilise the breakup of the Soviet Union. The money disappeared into a State that more resembles an organised crime syndicate than a national government.

I think this last point explains why Russia’s leaders have focused once more on foreign military adventurism. It is a distraction from domestic policy failure, especially on the economic front. Russia is a large but weak country, with an economy the size of Canada. For historical reasons it has a large stockpile of nuclear weapons and an expansionist political ruling clique. It needs to be dealt with in that light.

The west is in a second cold war, whether we like it or not.
 
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swerve

Super Moderator
One of the results of this war will be the destruction of large amounts of Soviet era military equipment that dated back fifty years held by several former Warsaw Pact countries , some of these now in N.A.T.O will likely be more selective to their future sources of replacement and certainly what may be considered battle proven
Ukraine weapon switcheroos are flushing Soviet arms out of Europe (defensenews.com)
That article's 9 months old. The Czechs have since signed up for German tanks, & more French SP artillery (on Czech vehicles), to replace Warsaw Pact era weapons donated to Ukraine.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Ruski’s comments, like Putin’s rambles, are historically selective to the point of being nonsense. They are designed to appeal to the contemporary Russian political mood than to convince anyone independent or objective. Why bother? Does Ruski think Muscovites read this blog?

History is a two edged sword. If we go back over the past two centuries, never mind 3 to 5, a lot of current Russian territory would belong to other countries that still demand it back. Vladivostok was only founded in 1860. Most Russian eastern territory, including Pacific naval bases, historically belonged to China or Japan.

None of this overrules Ukraine’s right to self determination. In legal and political terms, Ruski’s claims are nonsense.

Ruski’s comments highlight a basic problem with contemporary Russia in the modern world. Russia went through a revolution and a civil war. But Russia never really went through a renaissance or an Age of Enlightenment. Concepts of the rule of law and individual rights have yet to take hold. These are foundational to capitalism and democracy and explain why the latter failed. So 17th century notions of imperial borders still have currency.

Likewise Ukraine was not duped or bought off by western money. In fact, prior to this war Ukraine had received very little western aid (our mistake) as Germany in particular clung to the delusion that post cold war Russia could be bargained with.

Whereas post cold war Russia received tens of billions of dollars from Germany and USA to help stabilise the breakup of the Soviet Union. The money disappeared into a State that more resembles an organised crime syndicate than a national government.

I think this last point explains why Russia’s leaders have focused once more on foreign military adventurism. It is a distraction from domestic policy failure, especially on the economic front. Russia is a large but weak country, with an economy the size of Canada. For historical reasons it has a large stockpile of nuclear weapons and an expansionist political ruling clique. It needs to be dealt with in that light.

The west is in a second cold war, whether we like it or not.
Spot on about the criminal aspect. The gang running Russia has nothing left to steal in Russia….so let’s steal Ukraine’s stuff. If successful take your pick on who would be next.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Honestly, I think some western media / politicians are making a medium mistake (or just misinterpreting the situation a little):

1) This is not an 'extern' war, as it was > Soviet Union - Afghanistan (or USA -Vietnam; USA - Iraq) -
from which you could argue:
The population is going to be fed up with the war; the 'sympathy' ranking will decrease after a while.

Like it or Not -- if you look at all maps from the last 3-5 centuries, you will see that the eastern part of ukraine has always been under russian (zar) government / influence.

As wall as Crimea.
...
Three centuries ago Crimea was ruled (& mostly inhabited) by Tatars, aligned with the Ottoman Empire. It didn't have a Russian majority until well into the 20th century. There were more Tatars than Russians until after 1897. 300 to 500 years ago SE Ukraine was a wild country disputed by Cossacks, Poles/Lithuanians, Tatars & Turks.

In the 1897 census, there was no region of what is now Ukraine in which Russians were a majority (there were some cities). They outnumbered Ukrainians ("Little Russians") in Crimea, but there were more Tatars than either. Ukrainians outnumbered Russians in some regions which are now in Russia, e.g. Kuban.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
I've just noticed that Spain has reversed its position on its stored Leopard 2A4s, & will refurbish some of the stored ones (apparently from 53 kept at Zaragoza) & give them to Ukraine. It looks as if Germany will contribute to the cost of refurbishment. Uncertain how many will be fixed up: apparently some have been cannibalised. Two companies (one each in Ceuta & Melilla) have been reported to be in operational condition, & 20 others in good condition.

With the other announced donations, that should give Ukraine at least 80 Leopard 2 rather soon (weeks), possibly with more to follow once they've been restored.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
And sometimes intentionally conflates language & identity. I don't think that'd work for us. We don't really want to annex most of the USA - or even Ireland. ;)
You're thinking like 21st Century Australia. Now think like 19th Century British Empire. You suddenly might want to annex territories where nobody speaks your language.

But they did agree until 2014, when RussiaPutin changed itshis mind. Putin keeps changing his mind about them, in fact: for some months he's been saying that the border includes territories which he'd not previously claimed, which have large majorities of self-declared Ukrainians, & which haven't been under Russian control since the fall of the USSR. They didn't even have borders with Russia.

So, all we need is for Putin to change his mind again so it's the same as Ukraine & everyone else thinks, & there's no problem.
Sure. If we ignore the part where Crimea has been wanting out of Ukraine since the fall of the Soviet Union. Democracy, self-governance, self-determination of peoples and nations, eh who cares. Just have the current Russian oligarch in charge redraw the borders again. I suspect you must also be a big fan of Nikita Sergeevitch.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
No, I think the long-established population of Crimea should be consulted, & their wishes should be a major factor - but recent history has to be borne in mind. Perhaps Crimea could be a demilitarised region of Russia. But pre-2014 inhabitants should all have a vote, lost property should be restored, & the rights of minorities should be protected. I don't see any of that happening under Putin or a government backed by him. It makes Crimea tricky to deal with.

BTW, Crimeans voted for independence from the USSR in 1991, though not with the sort of majorities seen in the rest of Ukraine - & because of relatively low turnouts, a minority of the electorate.

In Donetsk, Luhansk, Odessa & Kharkiv oblasts between 64 & 68% of the electorate (not just those who voted) voted for Ukrainian independence in 1991. Of course, that could have changed, but it's still the only credible vote on the topic there's been.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
That very strongly suggests that NATO forces would have crushed Russian forces in conventional open warfare.
That's back to old arguments that what Ukrainian ground forces has thrown so far, is significantly much weaker then what NATO ground forces capable to throw. Thus Russian ground forces will not have chances if 'real' NATO ground forces come out to face them.

Well there's enough studies even by Western analysts that shown what Ukrainian thrown toward Russian, not something that most NATO members can thrown. Indicating Ukranian ground forces is not weaker then NATO ones. Which again back to arguments is Russian now bog down by much weaker ground forces compare to NATO ones, or actually a comparable ones.

Thus back toward whether this war already depleting Russian ground forces, or the war manage actually rebuild Russian dormant capacities. All raise question if NATO ground forces can 'easily' destroy Russian conventional forces, just because they're now bog down by supposedly 'weak' Ukrainian by NATO standard.
 
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seaspear

Well-Known Member
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