The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread

2007yellow430 · Nov 26, 2022

We should supply the Ukraine will armaments capable of hitting Moscow. I think their citizens need to bear the pain. Putin has been able to hide or shelter them for too long.

Art

Big Slick · Nov 26, 2022

2007yellow430 said:
We should supply the Ukraine will armaments capable of hitting Moscow. I think their citizens need to bear the pain. Putin has been able to hide or shelter them for too long.

Art

Who is we? How would this benefit anyone? Can’t see how this would bring the war to an end. Most likely it would only stiffen Russian resolve and rally the people around leadership.

2007yellow430 · Nov 26, 2022

Big Slick said:
Who is we? How would this benefit anyone? Can’t see how this would bring the war to an end. Most likely it would only stiffen Russian resolve and rally the people around leadership.

we is the suppliers of weapons to the Ukraine fighters. I disagree. The Russian citizens haven’t fully felt the effect of the consequences of their government behavior. It’s time they did. pubic opinion will ultimately prevail, and this is the best method to ensure Putin loses whatever support he has.

Art

Big Slick · Nov 26, 2022

2007yellow430 said:
we is the suppliers of weapons to the Ukraine fighters. I disagree. The Russian citizens haven’t fully felt the effect of the consequences of their government behavior. It’s time they did. pubic opinion will ultimately prevail, and this is the best method to ensure Putin loses whatever support he has.

Art

What weapon would the west supply to attack Moscow? Would the bombardment be intense and sustained enough to make an impact? How many western governments would fall as a result of this action? How does a direct attack on Moscow by a U.S. proxy benefit the US? I think such an action would backfire. The American public is largely unconcerned with the war in Ukraine. If the fighting is directed toward Moscow I suspect the war would be front and center and the American people would pressure the government to withdraw their support. I think when we talk about the hypothetical “we” that would supply this type of weaponry we are talking about the US. How would this be in the national interest of the US?

2007yellow430 · Nov 26, 2022

Big Slick said:
What weapon would the west supply to attack Moscow? Would the bombardment be intense and sustained enough to make an impact? How many western governments would fall as a result of this action? How does a direct attack on Moscow by a U.S. proxy benefit the US? I think such an action would backfire. The American public is largely unconcerned with the war in Ukraine. If the fighting is directed toward Moscow I suspect the war would be front and center and the American people would pressure the government to withdraw their support. I think when we talk about the hypothetical “we” that would supply this type of weaponry we are talking about the US. How would this be in the national interest of the US?

The supply could be Europe too. I think the American people would support it also. We have (so do the Europeans) weapons that will deal with whatever defenses the Russians have, so it need not be massive. The people aren’t going to stop the war. Most remember 1938 and the Second World War.
Art

Big Slick · Nov 26, 2022

What makes you think the American people would support arming Ukraine to attack Moscow? That’s preposterous. That type of action would bring the entire war funding into question. That type of action would most likely bring the mental fitness of the President into question. Leadership in the US supports the war with the exception of some small group in congress on the left and right. This is largely because the war is not a top 10 issue for the American people and therefore faces little scrutiny. Attacking Moscow would change all that.

tonnyc · Nov 26, 2022

GermanHerman said:
I dont realy see where your arguments leads given the unfortunate amount of this kind of footage we now have. In general I dont think there is much to be gained by arguing over single instances of war crimes and trying to whitewash them retrospect as this type of crimes are part of every war.

You are reading too much into my post. I wrote that post for a simpler reason. Sturm said something that happened to be something I know more of. I then wrote about what I know. Note that I focused on one specific event rather than the war in general and I didn't use the phrase war crime at all in that post.

vikingatespam · Nov 26, 2022

2007yellow430 said:
We should supply the Ukraine will armaments capable of hitting Moscow. I think their citizens need to bear the pain. Putin has been able to hide or shelter them for too long.

Art

It would be folly to try and match the RU emphasis on civilian target. RU is much larger and UKR is incapable of inflicting serious economic damage. Think back to the Battle of Britain - The British managed to save the RAF by goading Hitler into switching to bombing civilian targets. UKR needs to keep hammering RU military targets.

seaspear · Nov 26, 2022

With regards to any weapons Ukraine needs to prosecute its war ,there are a few identified such as the ATACMS long range missiles which supply of the U.S has declined even with Ukraine offering the U.S targeting control , a certain bridge would that supplies much of Russias logistical needs would come within range.
ATACMS: Why Ukraine Really Wants This Missile - 19FortyFive
There is a need for modern aircraft for Ukraine that are capable of matching it with Russia's the F16 has been mentioned but this aircraft requires landing strips in good condition ,the SAAB Gripen is able to cope with more rugged conditions on airstrips and requires less trained crew
Ukrainian Air Force Named Systems and Aircraft it Needs to Strengthen Air defence | Defense Express (defence-ua.com)
Think tank suggests transferring Gripen fighters to Ukraine as soon as possible (aviacionline.com)

STURM · Nov 27, 2022

seaspear said:
There is a need for modern aircraft for Ukraine that are capable of matching it with Russia's the F16 has been mentioned but this aircraft requires landing strips in good condition ,the SAAB Gripen is able to cope with more rugged conditions on airstrips and requires less trained crew

Gripen is also designed to make do with a less extensive support infrastructure; less support equipment; various panels can be opened without too many different types of tools and certain vital parts of the aircraft can be accessed without ladders.

relic88 · Nov 27, 2022

There doesn't seem to be a notable air war going on as far as I can tell. So not sure how supplying more capable aircraft fits. Interdiction maybe? Make cruise missile launching bombers think twice? Ground attack role?

seaspear · Nov 27, 2022

relic88 said:
There doesn't seem to be a notable air war going on as far as I can tell. So not sure how supplying more capable aircraft fits. Interdiction maybe? Make cruise missile launching bombers think twice? Ground attack role?

Possibly all of that the ability to carry Meteor would enable it to counter Russia's best fighters ,even protect new A.S.W rotary assets in their patrols
Think tank suggests transferring Gripen fighters to Ukraine as soon as possible (aviacionline.com)
This article suggests that America is against the Gripen or other fighters being provided to Ukraine time will tell on its accuracy
JAS 39 Gripen: Headed to Ukraine to Fight Russia? - 19FortyFive

tonnyc · Nov 27, 2022

relic88 said:
There doesn't seem to be a notable air war going on as far as I can tell. So not sure how supplying more capable aircraft fits. Interdiction maybe? Make cruise missile launching bombers think twice? Ground attack role?

There are documented cases of Ukrainian fighter jets shooting down cruise missiles, so that's one use case. There are also documented cases of Ukrainian fighter jets shooting down helicopters.

And it's not just a matter of Gripen being more capable. There is also the issue of spare part availability. While it seems that East European countries have been sending stockpiled spare parts to Ukraine, eventually they will run out. When they do, Ukraine loses their fighter jets. I am sure they will try to get a replacement fighter jets before then.

Big_Zucchini · Nov 27, 2022

tonnyc said:
Ukraine has released a headcam footage showing their perspective.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1593515224790974465
Ignore the first and last scene, as far as I can tell they aren't related to the actual events.

BBC has compared the videos and concluded that the drone video and the headcam video are of the same event.

The sequence of events from the headcam
- Ukrainian forces cornered a group of Russian soldiers to a shed.
- One Ukrainian soldier approached the shed. We can see several presumably surrendering Russian soldiers prone on the ground.
- One by one, three more Russian soldiers came out from the shed, hands up, and laid down.
- One Russian soldier stepped out from behind the shed's wall and immediately opened fire with his assault rifle on full auto.
- The camera immediately drops to the ground. Impossible to tell why.

Neither the drone footage nor the headcam footage show the full firefight. We don't know how many casualties the Ukrainians took. We do not know whether the rest of the Russians kept prone or if they tried to use the moment to regain their weapons or run away. But it was very clear that this is not a straightforward surrender and the Russian soldier opened fire first during a surrender, therefore violating the usual surrender protocol.

This is not Ukrainian soldiers taking revenge for a relative lost in an air strike. This is a Russian soldier opening fire at Ukrainian troops. It can be argued that the lone Russian soldier was a rogue while the rest of his platoon really meant to surrender, but right now we do not know that.

Italian artillery fella shares his perspective on why it's unlikely this was some execution, and likely the result of a battle that ensued in the area, in which the POWs were hit.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1594727807422185473

Big_Zucchini · Nov 27, 2022

relic88 said:
There doesn't seem to be a notable air war going on as far as I can tell. So not sure how supplying more capable aircraft fits. Interdiction maybe? Make cruise missile launching bombers think twice? Ground attack role?

The existence of an aerial combat capability is a deterrent, and a force multiplier for the currently strained air defenses.
Psychologically - it contributes to the sensation that Russia will continue losing, there is no changing that, and time is not in its favor.
Practically - it allows using ammunition certified on western aircraft, opening the way for new capabilities.
For example, SDBs would allow Ukraine to produce high volume accurate fire, while retaining survivability. No pre-launch locking mechanism means quick ascent, release, and descent, are sufficient. Data is inserted before flight.
Higher demand for SDBs means the US can justify ramping up production which would lower the costs across the board. The caveat is the USAF and USN are still facing ammunition shortages since even before the war.

STURM · Nov 27, 2022

relic88 said:
There doesn't seem to be a notable air war going on as far as I can tell.

I have no idea what your personal definition of 'notable' is but there is an ongoing air war and there has been since February; albeit one in which air power may not have been used as effectively or even extensively as in other wars. Both sides still deploy airpower [the level of effectiveness would depend on the sector and other circumstances] ] and both sides still face immense limitations due to both sides having achieved mutual air denial.

Feanor · Nov 27, 2022

Update. Nov 10th-13th

Kherson-Nikolaev-Odessa.

There is unconfirmed information of Ukrainian forces landing on the Kinburn peninsula. Pro-Russian sources claim the landing was repulsed. Given that no substantiation of Ukrainian positions there has emerged, this is possibly true. Reportedly Ukraine's 73rd Naval Special Warfare Center was involved.

Moscow calling

Сообщают, что Кинбурнская коса (относится к Левобережью) занята ВСУ до населенного пункта Геройское. 12 ноября ВСУ высадили десант на Кинбурнской косе. Вечером 13 ноября украинские подразделения дошли до Геройского, откуда собираются развивать наступление дальше. Взятие под контроль...

t.me

Таврическая Республика

По подтвержденной информации❗️ Сегодня утром при попытке высадки в районе села Покровское на Кинбурнской косе, уничтожена диверсионная группа 73-го морского центра специальных операций ВСУ. Подтверждено поражение четырёх легкомоторных плавательных средств. Оценочно уничтожено до 20 украинских...

t.me

A Gaia Amir MRAP and a BMP-1 near Novaya Kahovka getting hit by Russian loitering munitions.

Colonelcassad

Уничтожение израильского бронеавтомобиля GAIA Amir нашим БПЛА-камикадзе "Ланцет" в районе Новой Каховки. Ну и БМП на закуску. Видео: "Известия"

t.me

The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread

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