Russian Navy Discussions and Updates

[Ranger25]

And the Belograd has launched. Supposedly built to launch the secretive Poseidon long range torpedo


Russia Floats Out First Nuclear Sub That Will Carry Poseidon Strategic Underwater Drones

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

So, this Project 09852 boat is a modified and lengthened 949A, right?
The specifications and characteristics are classified, but some sources talk about a length of 184 meters.

 

[seaspear]

Russia Launches Belgorod, the World’s Longest Submarine
The popular mechanics article provides some details ,launching such a torpedo from this submarine to detonate and cause a large tidal wave against coastal cities maybe speculated to be more successful than conventional icbm missiles in being countered

 

[ngatimozart]

Russia Launches Belgorod, the World’s Longest Submarine
The popular mechanics article provides some details ,launching such a torpedo from this submarine to detonate and cause a large tidal wave against coastal cities maybe speculated to be more successful than conventional icbm missiles in being countered

Sorry to be pedantic, but a tidal wave is the tide itself. The correct term is tsunami. Back during WW2 NZ scientists actively investigated the use of tsunami as a weapon of war, but found that they needed a huge large quantity of explosive to cause an event large enough to cause significant damage to any enemy coastal structure. This was a secret program that only saw the light of day long after the war. Also to achieve the desired effect the explosive energy has to be focused, so you need a shaped charge. Having studied tsunami, their causes and effects, there are other variables that have to be taken into account. The morphology (shape) of the sea floor has a significant effect upon a tsunami because it can focus or diffuse the energy of a tsunami. Also the natural "slop" or wobble of the water along a coast or in a bay add to the ambient water level. So you need to undertake your attack on a king tide when the water level is at it's highest, preferably when a low pressure weather system is in the area. Low atmospheric pressure means that the water level is just that little bit higher - the lower the better. That's why storm surges are so dangerous. The explosion has to be in deep water because you need to displace as much of the water column as possible, and it has to be a huge large explosion - thermonuclear at a minimum, probably 5 megatonnes minimum at a guess for a good sized damaging wave. Your enemy definitely would have a lot of trouble countering it but no guarantee that you will destroy your desired target. Me, I'd just drop some MIRVs on the target and be done with it.

 

[Feanor]

Sorry to be pedantic, but a tidal wave is the tide itself. The correct term is tsunami. Back during WW2 NZ scientists actively investigated the use of tsunami as a weapon of war, but found that they needed a huge large quantity of explosive to cause an event large enough to cause significant damage to any enemy coastal structure. This was a secret program that only saw the light of day long after the war. Also to achieve the desired effect the explosive energy has to be focused, so you need a shaped charge. Having studied tsunami, their causes and effects, there are other variables that have to be taken into account. The morphology (shape) of the sea floor has a significant effect upon a tsunami because it can focus or diffuse the energy of a tsunami. Also the natural "slop" or wobble of the water along a coast or in a bay add to the ambient water level. So you need to undertake your attack on a king tide when the water level is at it's highest, preferably when a low pressure weather system is in the area. Low atmospheric pressure means that the water level is just that little bit higher - the lower the better. That's why storm surges are so dangerous. The explosion has to be in deep water because you need to displace as much of the water column as possible, and it has to be a huge large explosion - thermonuclear at a minimum, probably 5 megatonnes minimum at a guess for a good sized damaging wave. Your enemy definitely would have a lot of trouble countering it but no guarantee that you will destroy your desired target. Me, I'd just drop some MIRVs on the target and be done with it.

It depends on what exactly you're trying to do. The exact nature of this weapon is still murky, and I've seen claims online that it's more meant for contaminating the coastlines then for physical destruction. There is also a big question about just how difficult it is to counter. At the end of the day it's just a relatively small submarine. There's nothing inherently undetectable about it. And the US is arguably the world leader in submarine warfare. There's also the question of speed. If it's fast, it would be loud and relatively easy to find. If it's slow, it will take a long time to get there and give the US plenty of time to prepare for it. There's also the fact that either the Poseidon itself or its carrier would still have to "escape" into the Atlantic, past Norway, unlike say an SLBM sub which could in principle launch it's missiles from inside the White Sea. I've seen a well argued claim that this entire program is a waste of time and money, money that the VMF doesn't have.

 

[Spacearrow99]

The new Ivan Gren design is still an LST; it has no welldeck like a LPD. The Lavina wil have overhead cranes to lift amph landing craft into the sea. The Lavina has bow doors and a ramp. The Priboy will be atleast 14,000 tons.

The 09582 was getting built with or without the Poseidon program. The 09581 and later 09583 will be primary Poseidon carriers.

The few countries that are in a better financial situation than Russia. Putin is sticking to set budget for procurement since I hear about many defence projects being pushed back because lack of money. He's building the foreign exchange reserves. The Votkinsk missle plant's production 13 years ago, was tiny when compared to to today. USC is uprading multi shipyards after that they should be able to build larger military ships.

 

[ngatimozart]

Drive article analysing the first images of the Belgorod. Makes for interesting reading and she is one huge sub.

Analyzing The First Images Of Russia's Huge Doomsday Torpedo Carrying Special Missions Sub

 

[Feanor]

The new Ivan Gren design is still an LST; it has no welldeck like a LPD. The Lavina wil have overhead cranes to lift amph landing craft into the sea. The Lavina has bow doors and a ramp. The Priboy will be atleast 14,000 tons.

If the Priboy even gets built. Or the Lavina for that matter. I think effectively 4 types of landing ships is a bad idea (original 11711s, modified 11711s, Priboy and Lavina). The next GPV is supposed to have a ground forces emphasis.

 

[Traveller]

The Belgorod is certainly impressive in size but will it carry the Granit? After reading ngatimozarts post I was interested in reading up on the Granit. While a formidable weapon and the 'smart swarm' tactic is great, it is old.

I found this piece which shows a Granit launch and seems to mention newer weapons:



Watch Russia's Only Operational Battlecruiser Launch A Massive "Shipwreck" Anti-Ship Missile

What's the verdict gentlemen, Granit for the Belgorod or something else?

 

[Feanor]

The Belgorod is certainly impressive in size but will it carry the Granit? After reading ngatimozarts post I was interested in reading up on the Granit. While a formidable weapon and the 'smart swarm' tactic is great, it is old.

I found this piece which shows a Granit launch and seems to mention newer weapons:



Watch Russia's Only Operational Battlecruiser Launch A Massive "Shipwreck" Anti-Ship Missile

What's the verdict gentlemen, Granit for the Belgorod or something else?

Unlikely. The Granit's days are numbered. On the Nakhimov, one of the two Kirov's slated to remain in service, they're replacing them with the UKSK cells. There are plans to replace the Granit launchers on the 949A subs with Kalibr/Oniks launchers for the 949AM upgrade. The 885/885M doesn't carry the Granit either. So it has no future.

 

[vonnoobie]

In regards to the Nuclear torpedo its one of two things, Its either disinformation to make the West waste resources countering a made up weapon (pretty smart when you think about it, If it is the case I would be having a good laugh if I was on that team) or it is meant as a weapon to take out particular coastal ports. As ngatimozart points out there are way too many requirements involved to even think about using this as a weapon to create a targeted tsunami.

Hypothetically the US is the target you can try and and more then 99% of the time not create a tsunami or you send the bomb into a port and detonate it there. Will do just as much damage. Shuts down US trade, Damages the facilities used to maintain the USN and if the right targets and location of bomb going over shock wave from said blast could seriously damage any ships present. Another hypothesis is that it is a Nuclear bomb salted with Cobalt 60. Again if it is the Russians would be detonating it in the enemy port not in the open ocean as such a detonation would spread the radioactive material globally so rather then getting your enemy you are attacking the entire worlds fishing industry which wont make them any friends.

So yeah quick summary, All a big hoax by Russia or its a big a** nuke intended to go off in the center of a port. Nothing more.

 

[Spacearrow99]

My hunch was Russia was rebuilding submarine, support, and minor surface combatant fleets before building capital ships. The Russians are also rearming their nuclear forces at the same time. During the next decade, several nuclear rearmament programs will be completed, the funds who than be used to build capital ships.


Details of China’s nuclear-powered icebreaker revealed

Putin steps up talks with Beijing over Arctic shipping

Russian LNG Projects Are Competitive — Shell Executive

 

[Spacearrow99]

Russian defense spending is much larger, and more sustainable than it seems

Andrew S. Weiss on Twitter

The Russian would grow above 2% if not for the western sanctions. As a result, the Russian central bank conservative policies are holding back growth. Russia still has many ways to get cash in the short and medium to long term.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

An interesting recent uploaded video, tge first 3 minutes show us the new/ongoing projects, including the new Project 09852 submarine.

Project 949 subs has a width/beam of 18 meters, if the 09852 really is 184 meters long, then there is a big chance it has a larger displacement than the Project 955 Borei and Ohio classes, making it the second biggest submarine directly below ptoject 941.

 

[Spacearrow99]

Вице-премьер Борисов подтвердил планы создания нового авианосца в России

Yuri Borisov confirms Russia will build 70,000 CVN. He did not have any specifics, but he is reliable.

The 20386 should be able to carry two ASW heliocopters in its ASW role. As long as, it has 32 SAMs (don't no amount of SAMs carried) the ship makes military since. It can be sent to a place like Yemen, where your enemy has modern ASuW missiles or it could serve has good ASW light Frigate in a battlegroup.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Вице-премьер Борисов подтвердил планы создания нового авианосца в России

Yuri Borisov confirms Russia will build 70,000 CVN. He did not have any specifics, but he is reliable.

The 20386 should be able to carry two ASW heliocopters in its ASW role. As long as, it has 32 SAMs (don't no amount of SAMs carried) the ship makes military since. It can be sent to a place like Yemen, where your enemy has modern ASuW missiles or it could serve has good ASW light Frigate in a battlegroup.

Thanks for sharing.
Well, lets wait and see. A nuclear aircraft carrier program is maybe the most difficult and complicated project a country can ever start. Even for Russia, SSNs and SSBNs are not a problem for them, but designing and constructing a CVN without having a shipyard capable of doing it at the moment is another story...
I think the chance Russia starts with the Project 23560 Lider Class destroyers is bigger than something like a Project 23000 carrier.

About the Project 20386, only one corvette is planned, right?

How about the Gepard 5.1 class frigate ordered by Sri Lanka? In 2017SriLanka began talks for the credit purchase of a Gepard 5.1 frigate, but is the acquisition of it cancelled?

 

[ngatimozart]

Thanks for sharing.
Well, lets wait and see. A nuclear aircraft carrier program is maybe the most difficult and complicated project a country can ever start. Even for Russia, SSNs and SSBNs are not a problem for them, but designing and constructing a CVN without having a shipyard capable of doing it at the moment is another story...

Not really, they've built nuclear powered warships before. However what type of CVN is it going to be - a STOBAR with a ramp like they currently have or CATOBAR? If CATOBAR maybe they could be working with the Chinese providing nuke propulsion technology knowledge in return for CATOBAR developments and knowledge that the PLAN have made. Would be a nice bit of quid pro quo.

 

[Ananda]

Not really, they've built nuclear powered warships before. However what type of CVN is it going to be - a STOBAR with a ramp like they currently have or CATOBAR? If CATOBAR maybe they could be working with the Chinese providing nuke propulsion technology knowledge in return for CATOBAR developments and knowledge that the PLAN have made. Would be a nice bit of quid pro quo.

Is it CVN is what Russia need ? That's one thing I'm bit sceptical on this.
From the time of USSR they already have design for CVN (Ulyanosk if not mistaken).. Thus Russia have better track record than China on Nuclear Propulsion..so very probable they are in the end going to have 'sharing' project with China if they are moving forward with CVN.

Question is..will the money being prioritize for LHD rather than CVN..afterall if the French go ahead with the modified Mistral deal..those two already in Russian hand.. instead Egyptian Navy.
In my book it's still shown LHD still have priority.

 

[Feanor]

Вице-премьер Борисов подтвердил планы создания нового авианосца в России

Yuri Borisov confirms Russia will build 70,000 CVN. He did not have any specifics, but he is reliable.

All he can confirm is that they plan to do so. Plans are one thing, reality is another. Remember when there were plans for 4+ Mistrals in the VMF? ;-)

The 20386 should be able to carry two ASW heliocopters in its ASW role. As long as, it has 32 SAMs (don't no amount of SAMs carried) the ship makes military since. It can be sent to a place like Yemen, where your enemy has modern ASuW missiles or it could serve has good ASW light Frigate in a battlegroup.

That project is a travesty. It's very expensive, carries considerable technological risks where the electronics and propulsion are concerned, only carries one helo, and loses that helo if it chooses to use any of "modular" weapons options. It's the size of a light frigate but in many ways is inferior to the 20385 corvette. It even has inferior sonar compared to 20380-20385 series. Actually there is a slow realization coming to the VMF right now that it's not a great ship, and it's very likely the project is being altered right now, which will only increase the cost, and add to the construction time. In my opinion the best thing they can do is scrap the 20386, and keep producing either an upgraded 20380 or the 20385.

Thanks for sharing.
Well, lets wait and see. A nuclear aircraft carrier program is maybe the most difficult and complicated project a country can ever start. Even for Russia, SSNs and SSBNs are not a problem for them, but designing and constructing a CVN without having a shipyard capable of doing it at the moment is another story...
I think the chance Russia starts with the Project 23560 Lider Class destroyers is bigger than something like a Project 23000 carrier.

I strongly suspect neither is a realistic option. A 7000-8000 tonn 22350M "super-frigate" or destroyer is the likeliest next project, and it's not only reasonable, but most of the system (most) needed for it already exist in some form. It's also the logical next step after producing corvettes (20380s) and frigates (22350s). If the VMF manages to produce a true LHD, and a ~7000 tonn 22350M in some relevant quantity over the next decade, that would already represent a very considerable success.

About the Project 20386, only one corvette is planned, right?

Initially there were grand plans for a large run of the type, but it's so expensive, and so underwhelmingly equipped that I wouldn't be surprised if only one or two got built. In theory it's supposed to replace production of 20380/20385 series completely, which would suggest a production run of anywhere from 5-6 to over a dozen ships.

Is it CVN is what Russia need ? That's one thing I'm bit sceptical on this.
From the time of USSR they already have design for CVN (Ulyanosk if not mistaken).. Thus Russia have better track record than China on Nuclear Propulsion..so very probable they are in the end going to have 'sharing' project with China if they are moving forward with CVN.

Question is..will the money being prioritize for LHD rather than CVN..afterall if the French go ahead with the modified Mistral deal..those two already in Russian hand.. instead Egyptian Navy.
In my book it's still shown LHD still have priority.

Well... an LHD is far more realistic then a CVN. I think they are currently planning for both.... eventually. But with the VMF "eventually" tends to slide. I think that if they succeed in the LHD and in the 22350M projects, that will give us a good indication of their ability to proceed with projects like 23560 and a brand new CVN. A lot will also depend on how well the Russian economy does over the next decade. The defense budget in Russia has actually been shrinking, though not drastically, over the past few years, bringing GDP% defense spending down to a more reasonable level. Ultimately I don't think Russia will spend 5-6% GDP on defense in the medium term, and the success of the economy will determine the actual amount of money they're willing to spend on defense. I also think that at current spending levels, a CVN is unrealistic, and a few LHDs with some 22350Ms is a best case scenario.

 

[Todjaeger]

Well... an LHD is far more realistic then a CVN. I think they are currently planning for both.... eventually. But with the VMF "eventually" tends to slide. I think that if they succeed in the LHD and in the 22350M projects, that will give us a good indication of their ability to proceed with projects like 23560 and a brand new CVN. A lot will also depend on how well the Russian economy does over the next decade. The defense budget in Russia has actually been shrinking, though not drastically, over the past few years, bringing GDP% defense spending down to a more reasonable level. Ultimately I don't think Russia will spend 5-6% GDP on defense in the medium term, and the success of the economy will determine the actual amount of money they're willing to spend on defense. I also think that at current spending levels, a CVN is unrealistic, and a few LHDs with some 22350Ms is a best case scenario.

My take (for what that is worth...) is also that a CVN is rather unrealistic, for a number of reasons. Apart from the costs and difficulties in actually designing and manufacturing a CVN, there are all the supporting systems would also need to be acquired to make a CVN useful. Unless the Russian Armed Forces planned on altering their force balance to acquire and then enable operations of these supporting systems.

Essentially, the Russian Navy would need to develop both the doctrine and conops necessary to operate a CBG of some sort, but then also acquire the various pieces of kit required in their CBG. I could see this turn leading to a number of new naval and aviation projects for Russia. All of which makes me suspect that this is not something Russia could properly carry out at the present time.