no i think you misinterpret my post. Its not profitable for just a dozen Naval Flankers. If Russia also wanted it for its own purposes then yes, what you said is true. But I'm just talking about opening the production line for just the dozen Flankers China order and thats it. Its not difficult for Russians its just not profitable for them to only produce dozen Flankers, during the negotitions time and not now.
Russia to get SU-35 by 2011
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Thanks Feanor. A PAK-FA carrier variant should fit, however, AFAIK the PAK-FA is still in the concept stage. So depending on how the Russian carrier construction schedule pans out, we could be looking at 5+ years, probably more. In will be interesting to see which comes first.
If you are correct about the Mig-29K, that may spell doom for the Indian Navy carrier program, unless they too buy into a future PAK-FA carrier variant.
Thanks for clarification. However, I still disagree.
1) I do not see how it would not be profitable. Why would any aircraft manufacturer turn down any order? Especially if the production line is already engaged with Su-27/30/33/35 airframes. A sale is a sale.
2) Why would the Chinese only stop at 12 aircraft? Their intention is three carriers. They would need more. Also an infrastructure for just 12 carrier fighters will be expensive.
Perhaps I am being over simplistic about this.
Well the PAK-FA prototype is to fly this august. I suspect it will be at MAKS-2009. Soo.... we'll see. I wouldn't be surprised if they also make some announcement about the carrier program by then.
Why does it spell doom for the Indians? They iirc plan to purchase 49 MiG-29K. These are compatible (in terms of upgrades) with the MiG-35, and the MiG-29SMT. In terms of upgrades and spares, this means they can continue to operate. In terms of a 5th gen. carrier-based fighter, I guess it will be between the F-35 and the potential navalized PAK-FA.
The Su-33 is singificantly different. So significantly different that the Chinese, which have no problem manufacturing Flankers, can't get their own navalized Flanker program off the ground. And they have the T-10K prototype from Ukraine. So it's obviously not a simple issue. Second off the original Su-33 is outdated. Modernizing it would take some work, even if it's just retrofitting the Su-30MK2 avionics and radar package. Graned that KnAAPO is more or less booked on orders, and that no other Su-33 orders are likely to follow, I see the reluctance of settling for an order of 14 fighters. There is also, allegedly, suspicion that China will use these fighters to learn what they need to complete their own navalized Flanker, and not make any follow-on orders.
Thank you for the feedback mate. I was not aware the Su-33 was significantly different from the rest of the Flanker family. That sort of leaves China in a bind to truly go at it on their own for both the carrier and fighter. Perhaps assistance from the Ukraine will save them time and money.
I am still a bit skeptical about the PAK-FA. Allegedly, Brazil is suppose to be taking part in the program as an "observer". During the Latin America Aerospace and Defense (LAAD) trade show in Brazil, (this April) there was no info available from the Russian stands on the PAK-FA. Nor was it in the news. Whilst it may be under wraps still, there wasn't even any street talk amongst the aero crowd.
Cheers
Well China already got help from Ukraine. They got the T-10K prototype for the Su-33 from Ukraine. However to date, I have not seen any practical results on their part.
I guess we'll see.
IPA, the Tu-22M3 is not a strategic bomber in the normal sense. It's not something in the B-52/Tu-95 range. It's what called a long-range bomber. It's something halfway between an F-111 and a B-52. Hopefully that clarifies it a bit pricewise. Also it's out of production, so any units sold would be used refurbs.
I guess we'll see.
IPA, the Tu-22M3 is not a strategic bomber in the normal sense. It's not something in the B-52/Tu-95 range. It's what called a long-range bomber. It's something halfway between an F-111 and a B-52. Hopefully that clarifies it a bit pricewise. Also it's out of production, so any units sold would be used refurbs.
well not point in reposting the response, since Feanor beat me to it. So now you can see its so much the reverse engineering fear, as it restarting the Su-33 line again. Su-27, Su-33, Su-35 and Su-34 are all different Flankers completly different except the general appearance. So its not as simply and easy as you might think. If it Carrier fighters were easy don't you think China would've had some form of naval fighter by now, since it did recieve T-10K from Ukraine, the original Su-33. Opening the line for only dozen fighters and possibly no follow on orders after, China has possibly incorporated it into their own naval fighter program, is a loss in profit.
Once more =) If it was written in PRAVDA that Tu-22M3 could be sold to China - it doesn't mean that it was so. Repeating agian. Nobody in Russia could sell Tu-22M3 to China. May be Ukrain but not Russia.
Second about Su-33 and MiG-29K - just now MiG has Indian order for MiG-29K, so it's possible that several would be bought to fullfil the Kuznetsov. Chinese wanted to buy not a DOZEN but 4!!! ac - they said that they to buy 4 ac for testing and then they will decide to nuy or not more - and what does it mean?? it means that they needed these 4 SU-33 only for copying and they are not willing to buy more. And our guys said to them - "You want? no problems - minimum 40 AC and pay for them before delivery and ok. Because we remember how you rejected the order for 200 SU-27SK after getting 100 of them". that's all folks.
About Russian engines - yes their resource is lower then US BUT Chinese copy of AL-31 have resource 10-20!!! (TEN) hours - what are you talkng about??
Second about Su-33 and MiG-29K - just now MiG has Indian order for MiG-29K, so it's possible that several would be bought to fullfil the Kuznetsov. Chinese wanted to buy not a DOZEN but 4!!! ac - they said that they to buy 4 ac for testing and then they will decide to nuy or not more - and what does it mean?? it means that they needed these 4 SU-33 only for copying and they are not willing to buy more. And our guys said to them - "You want? no problems - minimum 40 AC and pay for them before delivery and ok. Because we remember how you rejected the order for 200 SU-27SK after getting 100 of them". that's all folks.
About Russian engines - yes their resource is lower then US BUT Chinese copy of AL-31 have resource 10-20!!! (TEN) hours - what are you talkng about??
To be honest I'm also skeptical that the Tu-22M3 was offered. The price isn't what looks wrong to me, but rather that it was offered in the first place. I don't see how it could be done. The Chinese are unlikely to settle for refurbished Soviet Tu-22 airframes. And the avionics would need a major update. Looks fishy.
Haavarla
Active Member
Agreed.
There's no way China will get their hands on Tu-22M3 Airframes from Russia.
Somebody plz post something solid on this matter, otherwise i'll discard it as utterly crap.
Now what's puzzle me with the Su-33 deal is this, how on earth can China take the risk of commision an CW and NOT have Naval-fighters ready for it?
Should'n it be the other way around here like what India are doing with the Mig-29K on their delayed carrier?
Thanks
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No Tu-22M3 deal has ever being mentioned in any serious Russia military wrightings as far as I remember.
Second ... China will have no other option but to buy Russian Su-35BM in quantities mark my words. No matter amount of money being poured in and tehnological advanced it can not being denied over the past decade its still not able to produce top class fighter on its own so it will have to buy ....
Perhaps in a 10 years or so we will withness mutch powerfull China ....
Second ... China will have no other option but to buy Russian Su-35BM in quantities mark my words. No matter amount of money being poured in and tehnological advanced it can not being denied over the past decade its still not able to produce top class fighter on its own so it will have to buy ....
Perhaps in a 10 years or so we will withness mutch powerfull China ....
there is almost no chance that China will buy su-35. China will do what it is doing now, which is to continually improving the avionics, weapons and engine for J-11B and it will be fine. Of the 3, the only thing China is really problematic with right now is the engine.
China has advanced PESA radars comparable to Bars and Irbis? Or early AESA? If not, then that's another problematic area when comparing the two. 
EDIT: Though I agree. I see no Su-35BM market in China. Possibly some of the components as upgrades for the currently flying Flankers.
EDIT: Though I agree. I see no Su-35BM market in China. Possibly some of the components as upgrades for the currently flying Flankers.
Well oke ... can you plz provide me with some info (and pic would be great too) of those advanced China PESA/AESA radars that I keep hearing about but somethow always menages to slip throw my fingers ... PS. I would apriciate China radar that is not developt on the basis on some Russia or Western radar .... tnx.
well it wasnt 4 Su-33 it was actually 2, then a dozen. links below to prove my point.
China to Buy Su-33 Carrier-Based Fighters from Russia?
Russia to Deliver Su-33 Fighters to China - Kommersant Moscow
Air-Attack.com News :: Russian-Chinese Su-33 fighter deal collapses - paper
Russia cancels sale of Su-33 fighters to China to prevent their pirate copies - Pravda.Ru
it was not 4.
tu-22m3 little hints that russia wanted to offer.
Russia to sell strategic bomber planes to China - Pravda.Ru
Russia to offer TU-95 & TU-22M bombers to China
got more links but that should be sufficient
The Tu-95 would never be sold to China. The production line is long closed. Re-opening it would be ridiculous. No spare airframes exist to refurbish. The article is rubbish. If anything the Tu-160 could be sold to China, as it's still in production. But currently even the production line for that is not meeting domestic demand.
Vladimir Mikhailov, not without humour, said: "And what if Chinese would like to buy them? So we'll show them their performance".
This is a quote of what Mikhailov said. IT WAS A JOKE!!! =))) And this was the only time when this "deal" was stated officialy. Unofficialy everybody said that this news were ridiculous!!! And Russian panic-journalists and Western of cause quoted this as a sensation!!!