Grand Danois
Entertainer
A "fighter gap" occurs when not enough new airframes are inducted into service. SLEPing Su-27 would still lead to a gap when the relatively old airframes (averaging 15 years?) would have to retire over the next two decades.
Russia to get SU-35 by 2011
- Thread starter F-15 Eagle
- Start date
Crusader2000
Banned Member
The SLEP/Su-27's would last long enough until the PAK-FA comes on line. While, offering 90% of the capability and in far greater numbers. Which, is what a vast country like Russia needs..........
Really, as it stands now the RuAF is going to suffer "massive" fighter shortfalls...........
Grand Danois
Entertainer
Keeping a steady rate of production makes far more sense. I suggest this Su-35 order is similar in production rate to what we'll see from the PAK-FA line.
Otherwise much of the RuAF tactical aviation would face scrapping before PAK-FA would arrive in significant numbers.
Crusader2000
Banned Member
Well, in my opinion Russia needs to accelerate PAK-FA Development and Production. Like the US is doing with the F-35......
As for steady production rates. Why not continue to build new Su-30's then? Especially, if you want to keep production numbers up. Which, would have added benefit of being far cheaper and easier to export to boot! Instead Russia spent vast sums on development and production of a small number of Su-35's (48). Which, are not likely to win any sizable export order at all........
Honestly, Russia has to be much smarter with is very limited resources......
Again in my opinion..........:duel
Grand Danois
Entertainer
IMV, Su-35 can be considered the most modern iteration of the Su-27/Su-30.
Crusader2000
Banned Member
Clearly........
I think, Russia needs to find a balance between keeping R&D going (technology base), making sure that a credible number of their fighters are somewhat up to date and satisfying potential export demand in order to secure more money flowing back into new development. Now the Su-30 in all its iterations is not top-notch anymore and competition is hard. So customers either want an affordable or a high-end aircraft. There are basically no customers left that require large numbers of something in between. The large indian and chinese contracts for heavy multi-role fighters are a thing of the past. Russia is now looking at small contracts in countries like Venezuela (the never-ending story) and financially less capable nations, so they are either offering the Su-35 (the high option) or the Mig-35 (the lower option).
Still to be considered is also a serious backlash in PAKFA-development. Assume for example that the whole development falls apart or is postponed significantly, which would not be unusual for Russia. In that case they still need to field a somewhat capable fighter in order to remain credible capabilities compared to the US, Western Europe (an area that, despite the bad rep of capabilities, will put something like 600 4,5 gen-fighters into the air) and of course China.
So I think that the Su-35 is generally a good idea. It serves as a support to keep numbers up, if the PAKFA is only arriving in low numbers (what I still think is most likely), it would serve as a somewhat useful emergency option, if the PAKFA fails or is further postponed, and it offers a very attractive offer for certain export customers, who are interested in high performance at comparably low cost and in limited numbers.
Crusader2000
Banned Member
Sorry, the Su-35 is generally a bad idea. As it consume what little resources that Russia has for procurement of new and/or upgraded aircraft. Plus, the fact that its performance is only marginal better than the latest Su-30 Models. (MKI for example)
With all do respect 3 Squadrons (48 aircraft) of Su-35's. Is going to offer little protection for a country as vast as Russia.
I think you greatly overestimate cost-savings produced by the fielding of slightly older models. The Su-35 in itself is just an upgrade really, produced by R&D-efforts that run in parallel to operational use. So when you are suggesting that money saved by buying the Su-35 should be poured in the procurement of "new/upgraded" aircraft, that sounds a bit like a contradiction to me. If you have a look at the contract that has been finalised now at MAKS 2009, then it is obvious that they order whats available and useful - including but not limited to the Su-35.
If you assume that by cancelling 48 Su-35 they would be able to order a significantly higher amount of other Su-2x/3x-fighters, then that is really in question for me. As far as those squadrons are concerned...well you really have to start somewhere. They just cannot field 100 aircraft just like that. Even this order now is orders of magnitude higher than anything recently seen in Russian defence procurements - and it remains to be seen if they can be fulfilled.
If you assume that by cancelling 48 Su-35 they would be able to order a significantly higher amount of other Su-2x/3x-fighters, then that is really in question for me. As far as those squadrons are concerned...well you really have to start somewhere. They just cannot field 100 aircraft just like that. Even this order now is orders of magnitude higher than anything recently seen in Russian defence procurements - and it remains to be seen if they can be fulfilled.
First Criticism, Then the State Bonanza Package for Sukhoi
Source: defence.professionals | defpro.com
Russian state signs record deal with aircraft manufacturer on fighter aircraft
08:06 GMT, August 19, 2009 defpro.com | If it were not for the sad news on Sunday of the crash of two Russian Sukhoi Su-27 jets during an exercise for the MAKS 2009, this year’s air show in Moscow would have been near to perfect for the Russian aircraft manufacturer Sukhoi. Although business for Sukhoi at MAKS started with some slight criticism by Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin, a possible major deal for fighter aircraft was announced the day before the show on 17 August, saying that contract drafts had been set up, and was signed yesterday at the show.
Deputy Minister of Defence, Vladimir Popovkin, and Mikhail Pogosyan, CEO of Sukhoi, signed three agreements for different Sukhoi fighter aircraft versions worth a total of 80 billion roubles, respectively US$2.5 billion. Within this deal the Russian Air Force will be provided with 48 Su-35S strike fighters from 2010 to 2015, 12 Su-27SM from 2009 to 2011, and four Su-30M2 by 2011. The news of the deal – being a “record in modern Russian history,” according to Putin – had been announced in a joint statement by Sukhoi and the Ministry of Defence.
As long as the money flows...
A little earlier, when Putin attended the opening ceremony of the MAKS air show, the Prime Minister had hit the headlines with two statements of quite differing nature. First, he announced that the Russian government pledged to financially support the domestic aerospace manufacturers with significant state investment, calling the development of the aircraft industry and space exploration one of state’s priorities.
"We are planning to continue investing heavily in these branches of the economy, to set up competitive enterprises capable of capturing their niches in the market, and to generate resources for the modernisation of existing assets," the prime minister said, certainly most aware of the fact that financing of the Russian aircraft industry has increased 20 times in the past five years. It was obvious that a large chunk of the planned investment would benefit the well-being of Sukhoi.
However, despite the Prime Minister’s criticism of Russia’s United Aircraft Building Corporation (UABC) for selling aircraft to domestic and foreign companies at a loss, Sukhoi was granted the above described fighter deal. As the Moscow Times reported today, Sukhoi will in addition receive a capital injection of 3.2 billion rubles ($100 million) from the state budget, Putin said. The government is also considering giving 15 billion rubles ($469 million) to RAC MiG, another fighter manufacturer that, along with Sukhoi, is part of the UABC.
In parallel, Sukhoi reached an agreement with Russia’s bailout bank, Vneshekonombank (VEB). The latter will finance Sukhoi’s investment programmes as well as the construction and production of the Su-35. Although, according to the VEB chief Vladimir Dmitriyev, no contract with VEB has been signed so far and is not expected to be signed during MAKS, VEB is considering expanding its support for Sukhoi, including financing the leasing of Sukhoi Superjet 100s to Aeot. VEB Leasing reportedly is looking at soon purchasing 10 aircraft for some $250 million.
All in the same boat
In the light of the company’s debts and the still unknown scope of the financial crisis for Russian aircraft manufacturers, the record success as well as the additional support through the Russian government and the VEB comes just in time. In his recent statement, Putin said the UABC and its subsidiaries owed some $3.7 billion to creditors, and that previous plans to pay the debt through selling unprofitable assets, refinancing, or floating shares had failed due to the recent credit crisis.
“A number of the UABC's contracts for aircraft supplies both to domestic and foreign consumers have resulted in direct losses, instead of profits,” Putin said. Consequently, he called for steps to prevent the situation from continuing and instructed government departments to draft a financial rehabilitation programme for the national aircraft making sector by 1 October 2009.
Continuing to be a major player in the fighter market
Sukhoi may have some chances in snatching a part of the national and international fighter market to support its efforts in pushing its figures back in the black, as it offers some of the most state-of-the-art air-superiority and attack fighter aircraft in the world. Besides the MiG aircraft, Sukhoi jets are some of the most successful Russian military export goods in the aerospace sector. After the Eastern European market has stalled at the end of the Cold War, Russia has exported a great number of aircraft to South American, African and Asian countries which by then had no domestic fighter aircraft manufacturing capabilities or did not procure US fighter aircraft for various reasons.
One of Sukhoi’s most modern fighter aircraft currently available on the market is the Su-35, designated “Flanker-E” by NATO. It is based on the Su-27 design and is powered by two 117S engines with thrust vectoring. The Su-35 combines high manoeuvrability with the capability to effectively engage several targets simultaneously. Its armament comprises a 30-mm cannon with 150 rounds and a payload capability of up to eight metric tons on 12 external mounts.
Having so far ordered 48 Su-35S, the aircraft will be one of the most significant modern assets in the Russian Air Force. Russia's Air Force commander, General Alexander Zelin, had recently announced that up to three air regiments would be equipped with Su-35 fighters in the future. Furthermore, Sukhoi reportedly expects to export at least 160 Su-35s to several counties. Since 2008, Russia has offered the Su-35 to India, Malaysia and Algeria. In addition, Brazil and Venezuela have expressed interest in purchasing the aircraft.
Source: defence.professionals | defpro.com
Source: defence.professionals | defpro.com
Russian state signs record deal with aircraft manufacturer on fighter aircraft
08:06 GMT, August 19, 2009 defpro.com | If it were not for the sad news on Sunday of the crash of two Russian Sukhoi Su-27 jets during an exercise for the MAKS 2009, this year’s air show in Moscow would have been near to perfect for the Russian aircraft manufacturer Sukhoi. Although business for Sukhoi at MAKS started with some slight criticism by Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin, a possible major deal for fighter aircraft was announced the day before the show on 17 August, saying that contract drafts had been set up, and was signed yesterday at the show.
Deputy Minister of Defence, Vladimir Popovkin, and Mikhail Pogosyan, CEO of Sukhoi, signed three agreements for different Sukhoi fighter aircraft versions worth a total of 80 billion roubles, respectively US$2.5 billion. Within this deal the Russian Air Force will be provided with 48 Su-35S strike fighters from 2010 to 2015, 12 Su-27SM from 2009 to 2011, and four Su-30M2 by 2011. The news of the deal – being a “record in modern Russian history,” according to Putin – had been announced in a joint statement by Sukhoi and the Ministry of Defence.
As long as the money flows...
A little earlier, when Putin attended the opening ceremony of the MAKS air show, the Prime Minister had hit the headlines with two statements of quite differing nature. First, he announced that the Russian government pledged to financially support the domestic aerospace manufacturers with significant state investment, calling the development of the aircraft industry and space exploration one of state’s priorities.
"We are planning to continue investing heavily in these branches of the economy, to set up competitive enterprises capable of capturing their niches in the market, and to generate resources for the modernisation of existing assets," the prime minister said, certainly most aware of the fact that financing of the Russian aircraft industry has increased 20 times in the past five years. It was obvious that a large chunk of the planned investment would benefit the well-being of Sukhoi.
However, despite the Prime Minister’s criticism of Russia’s United Aircraft Building Corporation (UABC) for selling aircraft to domestic and foreign companies at a loss, Sukhoi was granted the above described fighter deal. As the Moscow Times reported today, Sukhoi will in addition receive a capital injection of 3.2 billion rubles ($100 million) from the state budget, Putin said. The government is also considering giving 15 billion rubles ($469 million) to RAC MiG, another fighter manufacturer that, along with Sukhoi, is part of the UABC.
In parallel, Sukhoi reached an agreement with Russia’s bailout bank, Vneshekonombank (VEB). The latter will finance Sukhoi’s investment programmes as well as the construction and production of the Su-35. Although, according to the VEB chief Vladimir Dmitriyev, no contract with VEB has been signed so far and is not expected to be signed during MAKS, VEB is considering expanding its support for Sukhoi, including financing the leasing of Sukhoi Superjet 100s to Aeot. VEB Leasing reportedly is looking at soon purchasing 10 aircraft for some $250 million.
All in the same boat
In the light of the company’s debts and the still unknown scope of the financial crisis for Russian aircraft manufacturers, the record success as well as the additional support through the Russian government and the VEB comes just in time. In his recent statement, Putin said the UABC and its subsidiaries owed some $3.7 billion to creditors, and that previous plans to pay the debt through selling unprofitable assets, refinancing, or floating shares had failed due to the recent credit crisis.
“A number of the UABC's contracts for aircraft supplies both to domestic and foreign consumers have resulted in direct losses, instead of profits,” Putin said. Consequently, he called for steps to prevent the situation from continuing and instructed government departments to draft a financial rehabilitation programme for the national aircraft making sector by 1 October 2009.
Continuing to be a major player in the fighter market
Sukhoi may have some chances in snatching a part of the national and international fighter market to support its efforts in pushing its figures back in the black, as it offers some of the most state-of-the-art air-superiority and attack fighter aircraft in the world. Besides the MiG aircraft, Sukhoi jets are some of the most successful Russian military export goods in the aerospace sector. After the Eastern European market has stalled at the end of the Cold War, Russia has exported a great number of aircraft to South American, African and Asian countries which by then had no domestic fighter aircraft manufacturing capabilities or did not procure US fighter aircraft for various reasons.
One of Sukhoi’s most modern fighter aircraft currently available on the market is the Su-35, designated “Flanker-E” by NATO. It is based on the Su-27 design and is powered by two 117S engines with thrust vectoring. The Su-35 combines high manoeuvrability with the capability to effectively engage several targets simultaneously. Its armament comprises a 30-mm cannon with 150 rounds and a payload capability of up to eight metric tons on 12 external mounts.
Having so far ordered 48 Su-35S, the aircraft will be one of the most significant modern assets in the Russian Air Force. Russia's Air Force commander, General Alexander Zelin, had recently announced that up to three air regiments would be equipped with Su-35 fighters in the future. Furthermore, Sukhoi reportedly expects to export at least 160 Su-35s to several counties. Since 2008, Russia has offered the Su-35 to India, Malaysia and Algeria. In addition, Brazil and Venezuela have expressed interest in purchasing the aircraft.
Source: defence.professionals | defpro.com
Scorpion82
New Member
The Su-35 is a logical step for the RuAF and russian aerospace industry. The last Su-27s were delivered in 1992, so no aircraft is newer than 17 years! Given the fact that the most soviet designs weren't built to last so long, even with the low FH they had these aircraft are still old. The Su-27SM was a logical step forward and delivers some capability to the RuAF, but the aircraft is already outdated by todays standards.
The Su-35 is considerably more advanced than the Su-30MKI offering a better integrated avionics suite, advances in MMI technology as well as airframe design, engines and FCS. Many technologies of the Su-35 were derived from that under development for the PAK FA. The Su-35 has been repeatedly claimed to be a transitional fighter which fills the gap between the generation 4+ fighters such as the Su-27SM/Su-30MK2 and the PAK FA 5th generation fighter.
RuAF aircraft numbers are decending and the PAK FA is still in a very early stage of its development cycle. The schedules for introducing this aircraft have been consistently revised and further delays can't be excluded. It is no just a question of filling the growing gap in numbers for the RuAF, but in keeping the production lines busy. Knaapo has basically no other orders anymore for Su-27SM and Su-30MK2 and these aircraft aren't competitive anymore. All the Su-30MKI derivates, including the MKM and MKA for Malaysia and Algeria are built by IAPO in Irkut and not by Knaapo. PAK FA production is unlikely to be launched before 2015 and it might take even more years before full rate production is launched and the aircraft is being fielded in numbers. The Su-35 is a stop gap solution for both the domestic and the foreign market. I don't believe Sukhoi will have much success in the countries that already operate advanced Flanker derivates however. Just 1-2 years ago Russian officials were keen to sell up to 300 Su-35 to foreign customers and have already halfed their expectations by now. The Su-35 isthe only half way mature and competitive solution Sukhoi can offer nowadays, particularly Knaapo which competes with IAPO.
The Su-35 is considerably more advanced than the Su-30MKI offering a better integrated avionics suite, advances in MMI technology as well as airframe design, engines and FCS. Many technologies of the Su-35 were derived from that under development for the PAK FA. The Su-35 has been repeatedly claimed to be a transitional fighter which fills the gap between the generation 4+ fighters such as the Su-27SM/Su-30MK2 and the PAK FA 5th generation fighter.
RuAF aircraft numbers are decending and the PAK FA is still in a very early stage of its development cycle. The schedules for introducing this aircraft have been consistently revised and further delays can't be excluded. It is no just a question of filling the growing gap in numbers for the RuAF, but in keeping the production lines busy. Knaapo has basically no other orders anymore for Su-27SM and Su-30MK2 and these aircraft aren't competitive anymore. All the Su-30MKI derivates, including the MKM and MKA for Malaysia and Algeria are built by IAPO in Irkut and not by Knaapo. PAK FA production is unlikely to be launched before 2015 and it might take even more years before full rate production is launched and the aircraft is being fielded in numbers. The Su-35 is a stop gap solution for both the domestic and the foreign market. I don't believe Sukhoi will have much success in the countries that already operate advanced Flanker derivates however. Just 1-2 years ago Russian officials were keen to sell up to 300 Su-35 to foreign customers and have already halfed their expectations by now. The Su-35 isthe only half way mature and competitive solution Sukhoi can offer nowadays, particularly Knaapo which competes with IAPO.
Crusader2000
Banned Member
No, I don't believe the cost saving is great between the Su-30 and Su-37. Yet, even a few million adds up. Plus, the fact you have to consider the amount of resources used to develope the Su-37 in the first place. Which, could have been used to purchase brand new Su-30's or upgraded Su-27's years ago!
Regardless, my point is Russia needs a large number of fighters "now" and in the near future. So, in my opinion fair number of upgraded Su-27's would be with far more value than a small number of new Su-37's. Which, could clearly last until the arrival of the PAK-FA.
In short the upgraded Su-27's could be had in far greater numbers. Plus, are just as capable and handling any threat bar 5th Generation Types.
Scorpion82
New Member
I expect you mean Su-35 no Su-37. The RuAF will have some 60 Su-27SM by ~2011, but the airframes are old and won't last forever! PAK FA isn't mature yet and there is a risk of further delays, so the Su-35 is a safer bet for the near to mid term future and it keeps Knaapo busy with work. You know the production gap issue for manufacturers due the lack of work. You have to consider the economical and industrial aspects as well.
Haavarla
Active Member
Nonsens from start to end.
You have yet to explain how KNAAPO will earn money or even keep their employees with out this new Su-35 contract?
And further more the Russian state own parts of Sukhoi, so a competetive millitary aircraft company like Sukhoi getting a contract in this magnetude is a win win situation for everybody.
You also make it sound like a contract for the PAK-FA are close by!
AFAIK the PAK-FA are a long way from the series prod lines yet..
As Scorpion82 points out, the Su-27SM fleet are not that
great of an upgrade from the Legasy Su-27.
The SMs are infact very much yesterdays news.
The only logical step here is to move up in the Tec tree develpment.
Beside some of the systems, including the radars on the Su-35 will have to be tested and evaluated to great lenght and will no doubt contribute to the PAK-FA development in the years to come.
No better way to do this than through the RuAF and draw upon the experience from the RuAF pilots.
I also think the new Su-35 it will ease the trans-over from the Su-series to the PAK-FA when the time comes.
Yeah right, the SM upgrade is NOT just as capable and handeling as the newer Su-35.
Can you plz explain what you mean here?
And then we have the maintanance cost on the Su-27SM..
The Newer Su-35 will have longer lifetime both on airframe and engine, not to mention that it will feature more and better diagnostic systems witch in turn will greatly save maintnance cost.
I find your statments here ilogical and contradictive.
Besides there will be 12 more SMs to contribute to the overall picture for the RuAF.
"Having so far ordered 48 Su-35S, the aircraft will be one of the most significant modern assets in the Russian Air Force. Russia's Air Force commander, General Alexander Zelin, had recently announced that up to three air regiments would be equipped with Su-35 fighters in the future."
This will prob mean that the new Su-35(48) will be blended in with the SMs and possible older Su-27 units and regiments regiments.
This will help keep up the high end capabilities in those respective Regiments.
Thanks
Haavarla
Active Member
Sukhoi Secures Big New Russian Fighter Deal
Aug 19, 2009
By Douglas Barrie and Alexey Komarov
MOSCOW — The Russian Defense Ministry on Aug. 18 placed its largest order for combat aircraft in roughly two decades, with Sukhoi garnering the reportedly $2.5 billion deal.
Signed during the first day of the 2009 Moscow air show, the purchase covers 48 Su-35S, 12 Su-27SM, and four Su-30M2 aircraft.
Deliveries of the Su-35S will run from 2010 through 2015, while both the Su-27SM and Su-30M2 orders are to be met by 2011. There is considerable speculation that the Su-27SM aircraft will be “new-build,” perhaps using airframes originally intended for China. Similarly, the Su-30M2s may have initially been meant for an export customer.
The Su-35S is the latest variant of the Su-27 Flanker family, and is in effect a midlife upgrade of the design.
The air force already has 36 Su-34 strike variants of the Flanker on order, with the aircraft to be delivered over a five-year period.
Sukhoi Secures Big New Russian Fighter Deal | AVIATION WEEK
If this hold true the 12 newly SMs will contribute considerly to extend the ageing Su-27 fleet in the RuAF and are a welcome one.
But i find this not very likely..
Thanks
Aug 19, 2009
By Douglas Barrie and Alexey Komarov
MOSCOW — The Russian Defense Ministry on Aug. 18 placed its largest order for combat aircraft in roughly two decades, with Sukhoi garnering the reportedly $2.5 billion deal.
Signed during the first day of the 2009 Moscow air show, the purchase covers 48 Su-35S, 12 Su-27SM, and four Su-30M2 aircraft.
Deliveries of the Su-35S will run from 2010 through 2015, while both the Su-27SM and Su-30M2 orders are to be met by 2011. There is considerable speculation that the Su-27SM aircraft will be “new-build,” perhaps using airframes originally intended for China. Similarly, the Su-30M2s may have initially been meant for an export customer.
The Su-35S is the latest variant of the Su-27 Flanker family, and is in effect a midlife upgrade of the design.
The air force already has 36 Su-34 strike variants of the Flanker on order, with the aircraft to be delivered over a five-year period.
Sukhoi Secures Big New Russian Fighter Deal | AVIATION WEEK
If this hold true the 12 newly SMs will contribute considerly to extend the ageing Su-27 fleet in the RuAF and are a welcome one.
But i find this not very likely..
Thanks
Haavarla
Active Member
First do we have any idea from where the money in this contract came from?
Perhaps its from an external funding deal and not from this year present procurement fond of the RuAF?
Remember its KNAAPOs biggest contract deal signed in the last two decade!
I don't see that this will come over the regular RuAF annual budged.
With the Yak-130 deal signed too, i don't agree with you that Russia have so little resourses to procure new units.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4KapkdL6xo&feature=related"]YouTube - Yak-130 combat trainer showcased at MAKS[/ame]
Hasn't there been signed a deal for some new Russian chopper too?
But of course, if you compair Russia Airforce procurment program with US.. there is a big difference.
Yeah, almost like you say the RuAF would be better of without this contract
I don't think the minds and hearts of the RuAF high Command think the same way as you do
I do not think the Su-35 are marginal better than the latest Su-30 models.
With the Longer range, better kenetic envelope due to more thrust.
Better radar and longer engine and airframe duration between service.
Less RCS and possible the abillity to perform supercruise.
The Su-35 are quite more than marginal better over the Su-30 series!
Again Contradictive statement from your part, i just don't understand your point on this Su-35 deal..
Clearly it will boost the RuAF capabilities greatly and are a welcome one..
Thanks
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Major-Hasan
New Member
Rise of Russia
Thanks for the Information. I would love to see a Strong Russia again.
Thanks for the Information. I would love to see a Strong Russia again.
Grand Danois
Entertainer
Grand Danois
Entertainer
+ the rest
Thanx for posting the accurate data.
Agree very much with what you wrote.