I'm still waiting to see an average platform leaving the production line of Chinese aerospace industry.
Russia to get SU-35 by 2011
- Thread starter F-15 Eagle
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It will be interesting to see what type of production Russia can start up on the Su-35.
It's slightly off topic but I wonder what are the aircraft production rates for China's J-10, J-11B, and FC-1. Does China really have active production lines turning out these fighters?
Could more Russian fighter be bought down the road by China? My gut says no I think the J-10 and J-11B can serve their needs. I don't know if there as good such little is really known all I'm saying is they can serve China's current needs.
It's slightly off topic but I wonder what are the aircraft production rates for China's J-10, J-11B, and FC-1. Does China really have active production lines turning out these fighters?
Could more Russian fighter be bought down the road by China? My gut says no I think the J-10 and J-11B can serve their needs. I don't know if there as good such little is really known all I'm saying is they can serve China's current needs.
China declined an offer to join the PAK-FA project. so i believe they have pretty high foughts about themselves.
and that is a good thing..
I can't say I blame them I'm not a believer in the PAK-FA project.
How many of those 60 fighters do you think Russia's President said his air force are buying will be Su-35's?
It's KnAAPO. So provided that we're not being misled (intentionally or otherwise) and they are indeed new fighters, all would be Su-35BM. I doubt Su-30MK variants would be pruchased for the VVS, esp. given that the Su-35BM is only a couple of years away. And that's the only thing it really plans to produce domestically, before the PAK-FA.
Pakistan even if they install European or American weapons suites and avionics doesn't equate to Chinese technology being obsolete. Its user preference, China could have bought more Su-30MKK but they chose not to, instead produce more JH-7A, it isn't that the Su-30MKK is technologically inferior its that China prefers the JH-7A over cost reasons, compatible with Chinese weapons, no embargo restrictions, no legal contracts, etc... Example I chose to install a Porsche engine into a Ferrari chasis, does that make the Ferrari engine inferior or technologically inferior no. Its users choice.
You can say all you like about China whole military being copy and paste as much as you like but in the day, not the whole military is. If China was so in need of Russian fighters and weapons. Why did China reject Tu-22 offers, haven't approached Russia about the Mig-35 or Su-35 then? It feels that its current fighters are up to scratch, testing phase or drawing board. You can argue as much as you like about the shopping frenzy of Russian fighter, but the fact its military purchase are going down, and nearly reaching stationary nill point. I believe when I see it no use debating.
So J-10, JH-7A, FC-1 are less then average then?
Off topic.....final post about this from me
There was no offer of Tu-22M3 for China - never. About joining PAK-FA have you any links - first time hearing this.
China now is talking about reviving contract on SU-27SK (now SK2). They have no enough technology to make something like SU-30MKK. They have something like 30-50 J-11
Skolzkiy do you have a source on the reviving the Flanker deal with China?
Just forum talks =) some military guys who are in service say this - several, not one. There was said that now have place only unformal talks and consulting. Becuase Chinese have problems with J-11
I call BS. China has at least 95 J-11A and a regiment of 25 J-11B, and yes Russia re-offered the Tu-22M3 but China lost interest in it when it was re-offered. I'll find you the articles later. I didn't mention PAK-FA at ALL. Dont put words into my mouth. Right China doesn't have enough technological experience to produce a decade old Flanker that they had in service for over a decade to examine, use, and analyze. Common 30-50 J-11, I find your so called information guy about 8 years behind on Chinese technology update. Anyway "IF" China did need to purchase more Flankers then why Su-27SK series then? Why not Su-35? Since they have the largest national account balance, and second largest military budget.
Haavarla
Active Member
I wouldn't call it BS..
And i'm too very interesting in sources on that Tu-22M3 deal?
A word of advice HKSDU.
Don't call other post BS, if you can't back up your own claims with sources/links yourself.
If you want to be taken seriously in this forum, plz follow up..
How is it that China can't find time and resources to produce their own version of the Su-33?
And that Russia deny China this deal?
Russian-Chinese Su-33 fighter deal collapses | Air Force News at DefenceTalk
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A quick point on why the Su-35 might not be an option. We planned a purchase of 48-72 earlier ourselves. An additional 60 will allegedly be ordered. That puts us at 108-132. In other words the KnAAPO production line might be full for the next few years. I heard that this is why Venezuela got the K-8 Karakorum, instead of the Yak-130 (the production line for that is also full). This situation exists in several places in our MIC, including SAMs, and some aviation plants.
But yes, waiting on sources for the Tu-22M3 offer. I think Skolzkiy meant 50 J-11B. The J-11A is a carbon copy of the Su-27SK.
As for why the Su-27SK series... Skolzkiy mentioned a Su-27SK2. Sounds an awful lot like the Su-27SM2 which is a Flanker with the Su-35BM upgrades on it. I'll let him clarify, but he might have meant essentially a Su-35BM on the old airframe.
But yes, waiting on sources for the Tu-22M3 offer. I think Skolzkiy meant 50 J-11B. The J-11A is a carbon copy of the Su-27SK.
As for why the Su-27SK series... Skolzkiy mentioned a Su-27SK2. Sounds an awful lot like the Su-27SM2 which is a Flanker with the Su-35BM upgrades on it. I'll let him clarify, but he might have meant essentially a Su-35BM on the old airframe.
Tu-22M3 NEVER WAS OFFERED TO ANYWHERE - US compares it with strategic bomber and they would be very unpleased if Russia had sold it to China. Also even in 90-s everybody knew that this deal is impossible.
Feanor is right with Su-27SK2 - it may be the same SU-27 but with SU-35BM equipment.
SU-27SM2 - it is modernization program for RuAF.
I know there is a big problem in Russian classification but it is so =) for example SU-30MKK means Модернизированный Коммерческий Китай - modernized commercial china =)
About PAK-FA - I really have no info and never heard about this.
About J-11 of all modifications. Yes China has copied Su-27 but they BIG problems with RESOURCE of the system - for example their engines have resource of 20 hours. So they have these aircraft but most of them are not capable. That's Russia shows worry about J-11 but didn't do anything - there is no need =)
About SU-35 I doubt that only KnAAPO will produce SU-35, I think they will be also produced somewhere else - besuase SU-35BM need export orders.
Ok here is my follow up since about the Tu-22M3.
Russia to sell strategic bomber planes to China - Pravda.Ru
What I called BS was that his informative said that only 30-50 J-11 are were made, which is blantanly false.
And about me providing facts about numbers of J-11 in service saying how I dont provide articles and such. You can't with Chinese military, its all done by pictures, articles, interviews, newspapers etc... For J-11A you look at the Flanker photo released and their serial numbers, finding out the regiment and division with regiment of 25. You got to read the serial numbers on the Flankers, and calculate according so. I can't provide every bit of reference everytime I write something. So I say China has Flankers do you want reference to that also.
*PLAAF 1st Air Division based in Anshan, Liaoning, equipped with the J-11
*PLAAF 2nd Air Division based in Suxi, Guangdong, equipped with the Su-27SK, Su-27UBK, and J-11
6th Air Division based in Yinchuan, Ningxia, J-11
7th Air Division based in Zhangjiakou, Hebei, J-11
14th Air Division based in Zhangshu, Jiangxi, J-11
19th Air Division based in Zhengzhou, Henan, J-11
Reference since you want them.
Upgrades for China's J-11B - Aeronautica
Chinese Military Aviation
Jian-11 (J-11, Flanker) Multirole Fighter Aircraft - SinoDefence.com
Where in any of my post did I mention Su-33??? Naval fighters are different in comparison, I was talking about J-10, J-11 and JH-7A, all ground based fighters. Naval fighters are different discussion which you just shoved into our argument with no linking between them.
Su-33 wasn't cancelled due to a fear of reverse engineering, it was cost reasons and profit renuve. Starting the plant back up to produce a dozen Naval Flankers isn't profitable enough excuse for it to start. Thats why Russia wanted around 50 or more while China was only willing to purchase a dozen. China never need a naval carrier fighter cause it never had a carrier in they first place, so why build it for no reason? Until now of course. Its not that China technology is weak its that if someone is willing to sell them to you and is fitting to their needs why invest in building a simular project? China first approached for attack heli to Russia, Russia denied so China built it themselves, China building WS-10 engines why? Cause they can't export fighter with engines of foreign origin to contract violation and agreements, J-11A to J-11B, J-11A was incompatiable with Chinese munitions and avionics.
The only thing that J-11B isnt Chinese is engines and origin. Also I provided about the Tu-22 on my previous post. Also Russia engine aren't what you call long service life compared to American engines, but its the most advance and capable engine China has currently. Which I say China is still lagging behind in engine department. Should've just said Su-35 instead of Su-27SK2, sort of disappointed about it using PESA only instead of AESA.
Why is this so difficult? There should not be that much difference from the Su-33 to the Su-27/30/35 family already in production..
This also leaves only the Mig-29K option for the Russian Navy if it sticks with plans to increase it's aircraft carrier fleet and fighters. AFAIK there are no new carrier borne fighters in the works.
I would have to agree with Salty Dog if Russian wanted to start up production they could. I think the carrier situation on the Russian side is the problem.
I think the funding was canceled but at one point Russia's President said in a posted article on Russia's news page that an order for Mig-29K would be ordered for Russia's AF.
Feanor can you check to see if this order is still on? Thanks
I think the funding was canceled but at one point Russia's President said in a posted article on Russia's news page that an order for Mig-29K would be ordered for Russia's AF.
Feanor can you check to see if this order is still on? Thanks
As far as I know, no order of MiG-29K has been placed since that announcement. The same goes for the MiG-35, which they also said they would order. I don't think MiG is even capable of serial production of either type in sufficient quantities at this point.
Salty Dog a navalized PAK-FA was talked about, as well as a prospective navalized light PAK-FA variant from MiG. Nothing has materialized, but it seems unlikely that the MiG-29K or Su-33 would be chosen for the new carriers.
Salty Dog a navalized PAK-FA was talked about, as well as a prospective navalized light PAK-FA variant from MiG. Nothing has materialized, but it seems unlikely that the MiG-29K or Su-33 would be chosen for the new carriers.