Russia to get SU-35 by 2011

[Crusader2000]

That follows Viktor, besides how fast can Russia put out the PAK-FA?
Clearly Russia would bennefit from the Su-35 until they have the PAK-FA in numbers.. one can just speculate when that will be..

No, I have to disagree with that statement. As no Flanker Model (Su-27SKM, Su-30MKI, or Su-35) can hope to compete with the F-22A or even the F-35A. So, it makes little sense for Russia to purchase the Su-35! As upgraded Su-27's can handle anything except the two American 5th Generation Fighters. Further, upgraded Flankers would cost much less and in turn the saved funds could be put forth in the development and production of the PAK-FA. Which, Russia will likely need as the world economy is in dire straights and oil revenues are down........:unknown


Think about it.............

 

[Haavarla]

No, I have to disagree with that statement. As no Flanker Model (Su-27SKM, Su-30MKI, or Su-35) can hope to compete with the F-22A or even the F-35A. So, it makes little sense for Russia to purchase the Su-35! As upgraded Su-27's can handle anything except the two American 5th Generation Fighters. Further, upgraded Flankers would cost much less and in turn the saved funds could be put forth in the development and production of the PAK-FA. Which, Russia will likely need as the world economy is in dire straights and oil revenues are down........:unknown


Think about it.............

The Su-35 are not meant to counter the F-22 in the first place so why compairing them at all?

As mention earlier the the F-22 and F-35 will not see any large numbers for quite some time..
When will Norway have a operative wing of F-35?
With the Crises, who knows maybe some delays will present themself?
LM nor US are not imune the the Crises, so why bring it up in the first place?

Trust me the Su-35 will make its place in the RuAF, i will not change my opinion on this matter

 

[Crusader2000]

The Su-35 are not meant to counter the F-22 in the first place so why compairing them at all?

As mention earlier the the F-22 and F-35 will not see any large numbers for quite some time..
When will Norway have a operative wing of F-35?
With the Crises, who knows maybe some delays will present themself?
LM nor US are not imune the the Crises, so why bring it up in the first place?

Trust me the Su-35 will make its place in the RuAF, i will not change my opinion on this matter

So, are you saying Russia doesn't need anything to counter the Raptor or Lightning??? Also, F-22 Production is nearing the already approved 183 with another 60 as very likely. Which, would bring the total to 243 F-22's! Then while the F-35 is just starting production. The numbers will ramp up fairly quickly with hundreds coming off the line is just a few years time! So, considering the PAK-FA is yet to fly and could suffer delays. Which, is very common among Russian Weapons Programs. It doesn't at all look so good.....

As for your opinion about the Su-35 entering the RuAF. It hardly will if they don't sign a contract and soon...........As was my original point BTW


With all do respect

 

[Feanor]

I very much doubt the RuAF Leadership would agree with your assessment. Really, with the advent of the F-22 and F-35. The Su-35 is near obsolete and a waste of Russian Resources. Which, explains why they have yet to place an order..............The PAK-FA is Russia's future.............anything is a waste. IMO

Garbage. Russia does not seriously plan convetional wars against NATO or the USA. And I don't see Georgia, or China, getting the F-35 soon. Given that China still flies legacy 3rd gen in bulk, and other Russian security concerns revolve primarily around the CIS space, I don't see 5th generation threats emerging in the next 5-10 years.

So, are you saying Russia doesn't need anything to counter the Raptor or Lightning???

Not for the next 10 years.

Also, F-22 Production is nearing the already approved 183 with another 60 as very likely. Which, would bring the total to 243 F-22's! Then while the F-35 is just starting production. The numbers will ramp up fairly quickly with hundreds coming off the line is just a few years time! So, considering the PAK-FA is yet to fly and could suffer delays. Which, is very common among Russian Weapons Programs. It doesn't at all look so good.....

Absolutely. Hence why the Su-35 will enter service.

As for your opinion about the Su-35 entering the RuAF. It hardly will if they don't sign a contract and soon...........As was my original point BTW


With all do respect

Our original point was that a contract may not be public. Not to mention the fighter has yet to complete the design stage. Once it does... we may see a contract. Or we may simply one day see that delivery to the armed forces has begun.

 

[Crusader2000]

Garbage. Russia does not seriously plan convetional wars against NATO or the USA. And I don't see Georgia, or China, getting the F-35 soon. Given that China still flies legacy 3rd gen in bulk, and other Russian security concerns revolve primarily around the CIS space, I don't see 5th generation threats emerging in the next 5-10 years.



Not for the next 10 years.


Sorry, if they started building Su-35's yesterday. You would be lucky to see them in any meaningful numbers for another 10 years. Which, wouldn't be 5th Generation Type nonetheless. Even your own estimates state the RuAF has a need in 5-10..........(Never going to Happen)

Absolutely. Hence why the Su-35 will enter service.


You have no proof that the Su-35 will enter service with any Air Force let along the RuAF............nfloorl:


Our original point was that a contract may not be public. Not to mention the fighter has yet to complete the design stage. Once it does... we may see a contract. Or we may simply one day see that delivery to the armed forces has begun.

My counterpoint was Russia has absolutely no reason not to make such a contract public. As it needs all the export sales it can get! Clearly, if Russia's own Air Force won't buy your aircarft. There is little reason for anybody else to do so.....

 

[dragonfire]

News Update

http://www.defencetalk.com/news/pub...ies_to_Russian_Air_Force_in_2011100017197.php

Sukhoi confirms Su-35 deliveries to Russian Air Force in 2011
RIA Novosti | Feb 23, 2009

MOSCOW: Russia's Sukhoi aircraft maker confirmed on Thursday that the advanced Su-35 Flanker multi-role fighter would enter service with the Russian Air Force in 2011.

"The current progress of the Su-35 testing program confirms the earlier announced timeframe for the deliveries of the aircraft to Russian and foreign customers in 2011," the company said in a statement.

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Dont know if this particular news item has been updated/ discussed in this thread. However the Sukhoi's announcement is reaffirming existing orders perhaps from the RuAF and also it states clearly the begining of the delivery time frame as well as the fact tht there are two TD/prototypes which have been flight tested since Jul08 and by end of 2009 they plan to add a third fighter to the prototype/ test bed sqdn and complete about 150-160 test flights. They are also projecting a export/ sale of about 160 Su-35 fighters for which they are expecting countries like India, Malaysia and Algeria to place orders, although I dont know about India placing any orders, but definetely anybody who cant access 5th Gen fighters immediately would consider this platform for purchase

 

[the road runner]

The F-35 is already in production and the PAK-FA is yet to even fly. So, I really doubt it will be available anytime soon. Also, with the F-22 already in service and the F-35 on the verge. I would think Russia would be in a hurry! Also, its just one more reason to not waste time on the Su-35..........As its not an effective counter to either of the American 5th Generation Fighters.

I totally agree with your above post Crusader 2000
I find it childish that some members think that a(4th generation) MIG 35 or SU 30MK++ is in the same class as a 5th generation JSF and F-22.

I would hope that all members, come to this forum with an open mind and a willingness to share there knowledge.

 

[Haavarla]

I totally agree with your above post Crusader 2000
I find it childish that some members think that a(4th generation) MIG 35 or SU 30MK++ is in the same class as a 5th generation JSF and F-22.

I would hope that all members, come to this forum with an open mind and a willingness to share there knowledge.

As i stated earlier, the Su-35 are not meant to counter any 5-generation fighter, but the PAK-FA do.

Never the less the Su-35 is a very advance 4-generation fighter, and prize wise many country who dont have any means or funding to purphase any 5-generation will find this Su-35 very attractive.

Also i must point out that the NATO AirForces will still have a bulk of 4-generation fighter in 2020 and possible past 2030...

In this perspective the Su-35 are a very good bet for the RuAF.

I don't understand the claims that Russia urgent need of deployment a 5-generations fighter in this tread...

The PAK-FA will hit production when it's ready, end of story.

President Medvediev has stated that Russia wont be tricked into a new arms-race again, consider they learned from history and the fact that Russia are no Superpower like the US.

Also in a Defence perspective Russia don't need to match any F-22 or F-35 in numbers or deployment-timeline cause their Strategic(nuclear weapons) capability are pretty nasty.
Hense any would be attacker will think twice before they do anything stupid here..

 

[SkolZkiy]

Guys again misunderstanding of USstyle and RUstyle in military sphere.
Remember YF-22 and YF-23 were shown widely, may be not in "realtime" but they were shown even when they were not flying. Have you seen even FOTO of PAK-FA?? NO.
As I understood US or EU military have to show what they are doing to parlament and PEOPLE to prove that they NEED those money and they are doing something serious and also to fear potential enemies with newest weapons. (If I am wrong please correct me)
RU military has never such need, almost everything is done in secret mode.

Not so far Zellin CiC of VVS said that MiG-35 would be bought. There are no cotracts only a statement. But nobody doubt that it would be besause there is a need in this. Also it is cheaper sometime to buy new thing then to modernize and repair old. Nobody will see the contract before deliveries in RUArmy.
AS example the episode with Algerian MiGs. As I know several jets were delivered before MD stated that these jets would be bought

 

[Feanor]

Crusader you continuously refuse to engage the counterpoints provided to your statements, simply reiterating them. Further debate has no point.

Skolzkiy I recall that almost immediately after the Algerian deal went sour, there were speculations about the Russian MoD purchasing the planes instead. While the official statement only came recently, it was certainly out there in the media.

 

[dragonfire]

On a releated note - Could someone tell me what are the major advantages/differences a Su-35 has over a Su-30MKI, i read somewhere tht both are quite similiar but am not too sure

- Tnkx in advance

 

[SkolZkiy]

Feanor May be but what I've read was so and guys from MD say so. May be they are lying but I don't understand what for.

Changed Airframe, changed avionics, new radar IRBIS-E, new engines 117S possibility to carry new missiles included Kh-172.

 

[Haavarla]

On a releated note - Could someone tell me what are the major advantages/differences a Su-35 has over a Su-30MKI, i read somewhere tht both are quite similiar but am not too sure

- Tnkx in advance

The Su-35 Airframe itself complements bigger internal fuel tanks(11.500kg)

An upgraded enginge with considreble more thrust.

New BAR Radar, with more power.

New weapons.

Better in the Supercruise envelope.

Some RAM coating possible used.

The Su-30MKI feature 2 crew station, Su-35 one crew station.


There are many changes from the IRKUT-plant made Su-30MKI vs KNAAPO Su-35.

You can compare them here:

http://www.knaapo.com/eng/products/military/su-35.wbp

http://www.irkut.com/en/services/production/SU30MK/

 

[S400]

A little misleading...

Garbage. Russia does not seriously plan convetional wars against NATO or the USA...
...I don't see 5th generation threats emerging in the next 5-10 years.

Not for the next 10 years.

I find this viewpoint a little small minded considering the current state of affairs around the globe, and Russia's apparent ambitions in the arctic (...of which they are not alone...).

Simply stating that Russia won't need this capability sure smells of a defensive way to 'really' say there is no possible way they can afford the development, much less manufacture, of such a national treasure.

Respectfully, of course.

 

[Crusader2000]

Crusader you continuously refuse to engage the counterpoints provided to your statements, simply reiterating them. Further debate has no point.

Skolzkiy I recall that almost immediately after the Algerian deal went sour, there were speculations about the Russian MoD purchasing the planes instead. While the official statement only came recently, it was certainly out there in the media.

Which, points are you referring to???

 

[Crusader2000]

News Update

http://www.defencetalk.com/news/pub...ies_to_Russian_Air_Force_in_2011100017197.php

-

Dont know if this particular news item has been updated/ discussed in this thread. However the Sukhoi's announcement is reaffirming existing orders perhaps from the RuAF and also it states clearly the begining of the delivery time frame as well as the fact tht there are two TD/prototypes which have been flight tested since Jul08 and by end of 2009 they plan to add a third fighter to the prototype/ test bed sqdn and complete about 150-160 test flights. They are also projecting a export/ sale of about 160 Su-35 fighters for which they are expecting countries like India, Malaysia and Algeria to place orders, although I dont know about India placing any orders, but definetely anybody who cant access 5th Gen fighters immediately would consider this platform for purchase

Sorry, similar statements have been made as far back as 2004...........Yet, again the fact again is Russia has not offically ordered the Su-35 and its not in production. "Period"

 

[Feanor]

What's your point? First off the Su-35 IS in production. Prototypes are being built. Second off it's not in serial production because..... it hasn't completed development. Thirdly it has been stated by multiple people that we can't confindently state that no orders have been placed. There are other programs which also seemed to have been dead, but then turned out to be active after all despite the fact that no news or mentions of deliveries or production.

These are the points that you don't engage on any level, simply reiterating your original argument.

I find this viewpoint a little small minded considering the current state of affairs around the globe, and Russia's apparent ambitions in the arctic (...of which they are not alone...).

Do you seriously postulate that Russia will fight a war against NATO members?

Simply stating that Russia won't need this capability sure smells of a defensive way to 'really' say there is no possible way they can afford the development, much less manufacture, of such a national treasure.

Respectfully, of course.

The two are directly related. Russian ambition stems out of capability. The fact that Russia is no longer a super power with global ambitions is related to the fact that Russia does not need 5th gen. capabilities within the immediate timeframe. I suspect that development and manufacture of the PAK-FA will go ahead within the timeframe, (provided that the crisis doesn't sink our economy completely) but it will be in the airforce on par with MiG-35 and Su-35 for some time until those types are replaced completely.

 

[Crusader2000]

What's your point? First off the Su-35 IS in production. Prototypes are being built. Second off it's not in serial production because..... it hasn't completed development. Thirdly it has been stated by multiple people that we can't confindently state that no orders have been placed. There are other programs which also seemed to have been dead, but then turned out to be active after all despite the fact that no news or mentions of deliveries or production.

These are the points that you don't engage on any level, simply reiterating your original argument.



Do you seriously postulate that Russia will fight a war against NATO members?



The two are directly related. Russian ambition stems out of capability. The fact that Russia is no longer a super power with global ambitions is related to the fact that Russia does not need 5th gen. capabilities within the immediate timeframe. I suspect that development and manufacture of the PAK-FA will go ahead within the timeframe, (provided that the crisis doesn't sink our economy completely) but it will be in the airforce on par with MiG-35 and Su-35 for some time until those types are replaced completely.

What you want to debate is purely hypothetical? So, until a contract is signed and the Su-35 enteres production. There is little to discuss.........as it may never see the light of day.

 

[Feanor]

What I want to say is that the Russian military has become notably more secretive over the last couple of years. Deliveries of new weapons are now kept mostly under wraps, with the occasional general article cropping up. As a result you can not confidently state that the Su-35 has no contract.

 

[Crusader2000]

What I want to say is that the Russian military has become notably more secretive over the last couple of years. Deliveries of new weapons are now kept mostly under wraps, with the occasional general article cropping up. As a result you can not confidently state that the Su-35 has no contract.

Well, they are much less secretive than back in the Cold War Days. Regardless, my point is Russian has no reason to keep contracts/production of the Su-35 Secret. As it desperately needs to export it............