Russia infuriated with Chinese export copies of Su-27 jet fighters

[SABRE]

Given China's past history of making knock-offs of Russian MiGs (which for decades were the backbone of China's air force) ...

In the past China has technically never made a knockoff of any Russian/Soviet fighter. The F-6 (MiG-19) was produced under license from USSR & the F-7 was/is just a MiG-21 lookalike (not MiG-21 itself).

The only proper copy is perhaps the J-11 = Su-27.

Is China prepared to export the J-11 without Russian approval and involvement? If so, I'd expect Russia to suspend a wide range of contracts with China, both military and non-military alike.

The new Chinese J-11, termed J-11B is not accountable to Russian license, in fact the Chinese have suspended the Russian license in order to produce their own version. In late 1960s PRC sold Pakistan F-6 fighters without the Soviet approval (& they did not require it since Soviet-PRC relations had gone cold. license was canceled & PRC was producing fighters on its own).

In recent times PRC was going to sell RD-93 engines to Pakistan without the approval of Russians. The Russians did confront the Chinese only to end up approving the sell.

If you ask me I don't think Russia is going to cancel or suspend its exports to PRC since China is the largest purchaser of Russian arms.

Finally, have the Chinese really mastered the most complex subsystem of a modern jet fighter - it's engine? ... Only time will tell if China's purported success with its WS-10A is real, or only a propaganda vehicle being used as a bargaining chip to secure better access to Russian technology.

I can't say whether WS-10A is really a master piece but it certainly could be the path to it. China is serious about engine making. WS-10A is not the only engine they are pursuing, WS-13 for JF-17/FC-1 is another project in its final phases.

Can't say that Chinese engines are bargaining chips against Russia but they can certainly act as one.

More likely, however, is that there is a lot of maneuvering and posturing going on. China is not going to want to give up its access to Russian experience with the Su-27 until they know that they really have a viable home-grown option (that doesn't enter a mid-life crisis due to quality defects). The Russians in turn, will want continued access to China's defense market. I would expect to see a lot of bargaining going on during the coming months.

I'll have to agree here. I don't see either of them going for a divorce any time soon. There will be quite more years in this marriage.

 

[Schumacher]

... only one among hundreds of similar thifes acts ... so why are Russians mad ...LOL
If China has such great military industrial complex ...LOL they would produce somthing on they own ... but no

'Hundreds' of acts of thefts huh ? Are U sure it's not 'thousands' of such acts ? Maybe 'millions' ?
The bottom line is the Russia had no problem hiding its 'anger' when the orders were flowing.
In the business world, it's common practice to send in the lawyers to settle all the 'bills' once it's clear the relationship is almost gone. Russia's action here looks very similar to this.
Maybe this 'anger' can motivate Russian arms industries to rise again so that Chinese orders will return.

...Can't say that Chinese engines are bargaining chips against Russia but they can certainly act as one. ....

I think that the approval of RD-93 despite initial threats already showed WS-13 was at least effective as a bargaining chip in that it made Russia fear losing to WS-13 eventually & leaving empty handed had they continue to withhold approval.

 

[Viktor]

Russians defence industry is on the sharp rise if you have not notice!

 

[SABRE]

Thread moved to military aviation forum where it should have been in the 1st place.

Posters please take care in where you are posting your Threads & Posts.

Thank You!

- SABRE

 

[Feanor]

In any event this is another copy of a fighterplane that will be outdated by the time the bulk of the PLA has it. It's also far behind available internationally MKI variants. This does not at all seem like a major incident in terms of the actual technology (at least not from a Russian perspective). I think you guys might be right that this is close to the end of Sino-Russian defense relationship and hence this is an attempt to at least close the door with a bang.

 

[tphuang]

Well Pakistan is opting for Italian radar as well for they FC-1 and that tells something too.

China army has gained boom in arms industry due to Russian willingless to permit weapos desigers knowledge flow to China ... witch had as a result lots of systems and subsystems China has being strugeling fr compleation for decades to be compleated and enter operational service. Most obivious thing is the number and scale of China weapons system operational introduced since it had good relations with Russians and ultill then.

Now when they are left on they own .. we will see what new systems will they introduce ...

No FC-1 is using Grifo S7. The first batch of FC-1s are completely using Chinese avionics.

So far, the WS-13 has only proven my point. Given the choice between buying a Chinese-developed JF-17 with a Russian-supplied engine, or buying the same airplane with a Chinese-developed engine, Pakistan has chosen to sign-up for the Russian engine. Whatever claims China's propaganda machine might want to make, when it comes time to put money on the table, no one (so far) has been willing to take their chances with the Chinese duplicate.

WS-13 still has 2 years to go before it's available for mass production if we go by the timeline of WS-10A, so it totally makes sense that Pakistan has to go for RD-93 right now.

No, they were retrofitted for stability.

try this http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/4283/j1001cg9.jpg
I've attached J-10 prototype 01 in there for evidence that it has always been there, why don't you show your proof.
If you look at the locations they were added, those are not the most optimal in terms of support. They were added for aerodynamic reasons.

Why are Russians angry ... well for instance .. China is bigest operator of P-18 Spoon Rest radar that guides about 65 HQ-2 (Russian copy-paste) batteries ... when Serbs shot down F-117 that was done with P-18 Spoon Rest radar who recived digital solid state upgrade by NNIIRT ... well China stole the tehnology that makes "stealth" fighters visible without paying to the Russians ... only one among hundreds of similar thifes acts ... so why are Russians mad ...LOL

If China has such great military industrial complex ...LOL they would produce somthing on they own ... but no

Other than Kolchuga, what other air defense radar did China import from Russians/Ukrainians, name one?
why do you name which new systems you think China copied and I will respond to that?

In any event this is another copy of a fighterplane that will be outdated by the time the bulk of the PLA has it. It's also far behind available internationally MKI variants. This does not at all seem like a major incident in terms of the actual technology (at least not from a Russian perspective). I think you guys might be right that this is close to the end of Sino-Russian defense relationship and hence this is an attempt to at least close the door with a bang.

to respond to this and your last post
1) J-11B is not inferior to MKI, if you think so, state why.
2) Russians are suing China because they are pissed off China did not let them on the J-11B project and are not going to buy su-35
3) This plane is not going on export market, the Russians are saying this to sound like the victim.

 

[Feanor]

why do you name which new systems you think China copied and I will respond to that?

T-55's? PT-76's? whether they were licensed or not doesn't matter. The point is that they were reliant on imported tech.

to respond to this and your last post
1) J-11B is not inferior to MKI, if you think so, state why.

We can start with lack of thrust vectoring, continue with smaller airframe (at least that's what the chinese claim), and finish up with lesser manufacturing experience of the family of aircraft.

2) Russians are suing China because they are pissed off China did not let them on the J-11B project and are not going to buy su-35

So it's over possible lost revenues of further sales to China. Dumb. It was definetly easy to forsee, and certainly doesn't help secure further defense orders.

3) This plane is not going on export market, the Russians are saying this to sound like the victim.

Well if the components are copied to a large enough extent to consider it patent violation then Russia is the victim, albeit a rather stupid one (given chinese history for borrowing foreign tech).

 

[Falstaff]

try this http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/4283/j1001cg9.jpg
I've attached J-10 prototype 01 in there for evidence that it has always been there, why don't you show your proof.
If you look at the locations they were added, those are not the most optimal in terms of support. They were added for aerodynamic reasons.

I know the pictures of prototype 01. I've been watching the development mostly on sinodefence for years and again, these bars were fitted later on (a fellow aircraft engineer speculated that the very large plate suffers from vibrations). While I'm searching my old hard drive backups for pictures, perhaps some of the senior members remember this too and can confirm it?

 

[tphuang]

I know the pictures of prototype 01. I've been watching the development mostly on sinodefence for years and again, these bars were fitted later on (a fellow aircraft engineer speculated that the very large plate suffers from vibrations). While I'm searching my old hard drive backups for pictures, perhaps some of the senior members remember this too and can confirm it?

I think you probably had some old PS or CG photos.

T-55's? PT-76's? whether they were licensed or not doesn't matter. The point is that they were reliant on imported tech.

more recent developments, please.

We can start with lack of thrust vectoring, continue with smaller airframe (at least that's what the chinese claim), and finish up with lesser manufacturing experience of the family of aircraft.

lighter vs smaller, different things. J-11B is lighter + has a higher thrusted engine -> better T/W ratio. I would say that's more important than having TVC. TVC's advantage really depends on who you are. As for less manufacturing experience, J-11B's airframe certainly has higher requirements in terms of service life than sk.

So it's over possible lost revenues of further sales to China. Dumb. It was definetly easy to forsee, and certainly doesn't help secure further defense orders.

That's what it appears to me.

Well if the components are copied to a large enough extent to consider it patent violation then Russia is the victim, albeit a rather stupid one (given chinese history for borrowing foreign tech).

Russians didn't think China could master the su-27 tech before the next generation of plane came along. They were right to a degree, because we are probably only 7 years from when 5th gen plane comes along. And by the time China is ready to export flankers, there probably won't be any takers. So, developing indigenous flanker variants is more about acquiring the ability to design and manufacturer large, multi-role fighters.

 

[Feanor]

more recent developments, please.

The Type-79 is still a T-54 development..... even the Type-85 still has distinctive features of Soviet tank design.

lighter vs smaller, different things. J-11B is lighter + has a higher thrusted engine -> better T/W ratio. I would say that's more important than having TVC. TVC's advantage really depends on who you are. As for less manufacturing experience, J-11B's airframe certainly has higher requirements in terms of service life than sk.

It has a smaller airframe. That means harder to modernize.

Also, my knowledge here is limited, does the J-11B carry anything GPS compatible in terms of navigations and targetting? And what's the range on it's radar in terms of air to air?

 

[flyboyEB]

China copying the Su-27? If they can rip-off some Eurofighters or F-22s they'd really be in business

 

[hellfire]

well i doubt a J11 is equal to a MKI,let alone be superior.i didnt read anywhere that J11 is superior ,from what i read from many articles and news ch the SU-35 is the only one superior to the MKI and i saw the show even on national geographic channel.

in these forums all i see ,is people supporting the aircraft there nations have including many moderators.
i like planes irrespective has to who has it.i may be a newbie in this forum but i have been reading about sukhoi from the past 12 years.hell i even have a radio controled sukhoi with turbine engine(well still havent bought the engine has yet) .

well russia will be pissed why shouldnt they i mean GM was pissed when some chinese manufacturer copied there vechicle SPARK,also another chinese maker copied honda SRV the chinese named it FRV.so those companies started sueing the chinese .:nutkick

 

[whodunit]

What does it matter when the chinese have already received their su-30mk's.

 

[crobato]

Russians defence industry is on the sharp rise if you have not notice!

You mean sharp decline. Algeria are not accepting their MiG-29s, Venenzuela is complaining, and India is gradually shifting to Western sources. China's defense budget is growing by double digits every year, while purchases to Russia is on a sharp decline in contrast. So where is all the money in the Chinese budget is going?

 

[crobato]

I know the pictures of prototype 01. I've been watching the development mostly on sinodefence for years and again, these bars were fitted later on (a fellow aircraft engineer speculated that the very large plate suffers from vibrations). While I'm searching my old hard drive backups for pictures, perhaps some of the senior members remember this too and can confirm it?

Why don't you go ahead and prove it? I dare you. Post pictures of J-10 01 without the bars and without attempting any PS on them. I got pictures of J-10 01 myself, probably more than you will ever have, some of them taken early in the project and none of them were without the bars. And it was no aircraft engineer that speculated the plate would have vibrations; it was KANWA's Pinkov which knows nothing on these matters at all, but claimed it was due to the weight of the engine tunnel that would force these vibrations.

 

[crobato]

The Type-79 is still a T-54 development..... even the Type-85 still has distinctive features of Soviet tank design.

If you mean the autoloader yes. If you mean the welded tank turret and the fire control systems, no.

It has a smaller airframe. That means harder to modernize.

Also, my knowledge here is limited, does the J-11B carry anything GPS compatible in terms of navigations and targetting? And what's the range on it's radar in terms of air to air?

No, the airframe is the same size as the Su-27SK and has the exact lines and dimensions. All the Flankers from the earliest to the latest have not changed in their dimensions at all.

The J-11B, like most modern Chinese platforms, should have GPS and Beidou, but will probably rely only on Beidou in wartime. Performance of radar is classified but should be better than the N001VEP series but behind any of the PESA or AESA types. The J-11B features a wide angle holographic HUD in addition to a cockpit with four MFDs plus a UV based EOS MAWS in four positions.

 

[ROCK45]

Flankers

People have mentioned that the Su-35 is superior to MKI model but correct me if I’m wrong the Su-35 isn’t in full production yet? So nobody really knows if Russia improved on the non Russian systems built into the Su-30 Flanker MKI? With the more powerful engines and I think lighter weight one can assume a little better flying performance but still doesn’t mean the sub systems are better. Think about it India went with the non Russian systems for a reason and don’t seem to be jumping on the Su-35. Does anybody know if India upgrading any of there older Flankers with similar Russian sub systems in place of the non Russian made systems bought earlier? That would be a good benchmark I think most users would rather order the entire aircraft including sub systems unless it’s just too costly to replace.

 

[Viktor]

@ Crobado .. few questions

1. When will Beidu become operational?

2. What about China sea surveilence satelites that where suposed to guide China antiship balistic missiles (As I read few of them (1-2)have being lounched but they last only few years.

3. I sow China has stoped producing destroyers (only two 051C and 052C produced) .. whys that?

Tnx

 

[Feanor]

You mean sharp decline. Algeria are not accepting their MiG-29s, Venenzuela is complaining, and India is gradually shifting to Western sources. China's defense budget is growing by double digits every year, while purchases to Russia is on a sharp decline in contrast. So where is all the money in the Chinese budget is going?

Please show me the Venezuelan complaints. Last I heard on the issue were some negotiations on purchases of small attack subs, and possibly Su-35. As for India, there have not been any truly major benchmark contracts that would signal significant move away from Russia. Remember they latched on to the PAK FA and are co-developing the Brahmos. They used their option for additional T-90's for another 347 tanks. Finally they're purchasing additional MKI's. This doesn't look like a Western move in on the Indian market. Moreover the Gorshkov deal, which looked like it might fall through, is being renegotiated after all. Finally they're modernizing their MiG-29 force. Given all that, the chances of the MiG-35 in the MRCA competition also look pretty good (given it's commonality with existing Fulcrums, and the MiG-29K's which are being purchased for the Gorshkov, and most likely for the indigenous carrier).

No, the airframe is the same size as the Su-27SK and has the exact lines and dimensions. All the Flankers from the earliest to the latest have not changed in their dimensions at all.

I believe the Chinese claim for why it wasn't piracy was that the J-11B had a smaller airframe by something like 10%.

The J-11B, like most modern Chinese platforms, should have GPS and Beidou, but will probably rely only on Beidou in wartime. Performance of radar is classified but should be better than the N001VEP series but behind any of the PESA or AESA types. The J-11B features a wide angle holographic HUD in addition to a cockpit with four MFDs plus a UV based EOS MAWS in four positions.

Should have GPS or does have GPS?

The MKI carries PESA. N011-M Bars. There is speculation about upgrade to the Irbis eventually.

 

[Viktor]

You mean sharp decline. Algeria are not accepting their MiG-29s, Venenzuela is complaining, and India is gradually shifting to Western sources. China's defense budget is growing by double digits every year, while purchases to Russia is on a sharp decline in contrast. So where is all the money in the Chinese budget is going?

Russia is No.1 in the world in military sales and those are increasing each year .. so that says all about its quality as Russia is heavily investing in production lines and retooling as well as R&D of many new project.

Its military tides with India has never being batter.