Russia infuriated with Chinese export copies of Su-27 jet fighters

[ROCK45]

Russia infuriated with Chinese export copies of Su-27 jet fighters

If China did produce there J-11 in numbers and made sales just for example to African clients or others could they survive without Russian help? I’m not up to date on China jet engine production and if they could really go away from Russian made types completely. What other contracts or current projects might be affected if China did decide to make sales and went against Russia’s wishes on this matter? Could Russia afford to lose China as a customer down the road according to this article at least arm sales to China are down anyway? Does China produce a lot of there different weapons systems on there ships & subs or is that still an area where they depend on Russian gear? I would be interested in learning or seeing a current list of major orders/projects between Russia and China.

Air Force orders or projects
Naval orders or projects
Army orders or projects
Missile orders or projects


An article I found
Russia infuriated with Chinese export copies of Su-27 jet fighters
22.04.2008 Source: Pravda.Ru
URL: http://english.pravda.ru/russia/economics/104975-russia_china-0

Russia has officially notified China of the fact that the production of J11 jet fighters, which copy Russia’s Su-27SK aircraft, violates international agreements. Moscow promised to launch legal proceedings to protect its intellectual property.
Russia’s attempts to settle down on China’s arms market have been made to no avail, the Nezavisimaya Gazeta reports. Chinese pirates have entered a new level of activity. They mastered the production technology and developed the Chinese production of Su-27 analogues with a view to subsequently export the planes to third world countries.
The military cooperation between Russia and China has not been very successful during the recent couple of years. Russia’s arms exports to China dropped by 62 percent. In addition, Russia does not sign any new defense cooperation contracts with China. For the time being, the two countries simply execute the previously signed contracts, the sum of which total about $1.8 billion.
It is worthy of note that China used to be a major buyer of Russian-made military hardware. At present moment, China gradually becomes a large exporter of arms.
The Shenyang J-11 is an advanced fighter in the People's Liberation Army Air Force. It is a Chinese-redesigned, Chinese upgrade of the Russian Sukhoi Su-27SK.
The new J-11 is a Chinese redesigned version of the Sukhoi Su-27SK air superiority fighter. Sukhoi originally provided kits to Shenyang Aircraft Corporation upon an agreement in 1995, but over time there were to be increasing Chinese content in the aircraft, with up to 70% of all Su-27 ordered by the PLAAF to be Chinese-made. It has been reported that Sukhoi agreed to an upgrade program, allegedly in 2001, with improved radar and attack avionics.
However, in 2004, Russian media reported that Shenyang co-production of the basic J-11 was stopped after around 100 examples were built, citing a source within the PLAAF suggesting that the basic Su-27/J-11 was no longer meeting PLAAF requirements. The PLAAF later revealed a mock-up of an upgrade J-11C in late 2002. It was equipped with Chinese anti-ship and PL-12 air-to-air missiles presumably for the role for a maritime strike aircraft.
The Sukhoi Su-27 (NATO reporting name 'Flanker') is a jet fighter plane originally manufactured by the Soviet Union, and designed by the Sukhoi Design Bureau. It was intended as a direct competitor for the new generation of American fighters (which emerged as the F-14 Tomcat, F-15 Eagle, F-16 Fighting Falcon, and F/A-18 Hornet), with long range, heavy armament, and very high agility. The Su-27 most often flies air superiority missions, but is able to perform almost all combat operations. Its closest American counterpart is the F-15 Eagle.
Prepared by Dmitry Sudakov
Pravda.ru

Link
http://english.pravda.ru/russia/economics/22-04-2008/104975-russia_china-0

 

[Feanor]

Compared to the MKI and it's derivatives, the Su-27SK is pretty outdated. With the Su-35BM just around the corner (arms-tass mentioned it as one of the airplanes Libya may have purchased in the recent 2.5 billion arms deal) it shouldn't be a major export competitor.

 

[fltworthy]

Given China's past history of making knock-offs of Russian MiGs (which for decades were the backbone of China's air force), even the Russians shouldn't be surprised by this development. The real questions are how much of this presumed Russian angst is real, and how much is just posturing.

The following are the developments that we should watch for:

• Are the Russians truly prepared to cut-off arms shipments to China? There are a number of outstanding contracts - most notably for the delivery of the AL-31F engines that power both China's Su-27s and J-10 fleet - that could be affected.
  
  
• Is China prepared to export the J-11 without Russian approval and involvement? If so, I'd expect Russia to suspend a wide range of contracts with China, both military and non-military alike.
  
  
• Will the Chinese-developed airplane develop quality issues as it ages? It will take a number of years to determine if this happens. When you reverse-engineer a product, you often don't know which features are critical and which dimensions can be allowed to float. That lack of underlying knowledge can show up in some nasty ways. China's entire Q-5 fleet was grounded for a time back in 1975, due to issues with the hydraulic system that cost a number of pilots their lives. Copying and modifying aircraft components is not the same as producing an automobile or tank. You can't park an airplane on a cloud when it breaks down.
  
  
• Finally, have the Chinese really mastered the most complex subsystem of a modern jet fighter - it's engine? Chinese electronics can be substituted for Russian electronics. Aircraft components are mostly aluminum and titanium alloy - something that China should have experience with manufacturing from their days producing MiG knock-offs. But the engine adds a whole new level of complexity, with specialized alloys and manufacturing processes. China's experience producing MiG's won't help them here. Aircraft engine technology has changed significantly since the 1960s. Only time will tell if China's purported success with its WS-10A is real, or only a propaganda vehicle being used as a bargaining chip to secure better access to Russian technology.

If China has really matched the Russian manufacturing base - then I would expect to see China prepared to forge ahead as a one-on-one competitor for jet aircraft sales. There would be no reason to continue importing Russian engines, for example, if China really has mastered all that they claim they have. There would be no reason to re-sell Russian RD-33 engines to power Pakistan's JF-17, for example, if China thought they could produce an equivalent on their own.

More likely, however, is that there is a lot of maneuvering and posturing going on. China is not going to want to give up its access to Russian experience with the Su-27 until they know that they really have a viable home-grown option (that doesn't enter a mid-life crisis due to quality defects). The Russians in turn, will want continued access to China's defense market. I would expect to see a lot of bargaining going on during the coming months.

 

[XaNDeR]

Thats really nothing new China has been copy paste Russian tehnology since the start of the cold war.

 

[crobato]

The WS-10A is real for sure. The J-11B coming into service uses these engines, albeit in limited numbers. You seem to forget that when you manufacture the MiG knockoffs, you also manufacture the engines that power the knockoffs. And step by step, you go upwards like making Spey inspired engines like the WS-9 and mini turbines for the cruise and antiship missiles. The WS-10A is the final step towards putting the J-11B into serial production.

They do stress test these planes. We know they sacrifice a few airframes by shaking them into pieces. The first J-10 prototype had something like 4000 to 5000 flight hours before it was retired. The J-11B is made with an airframe life of 10,000 flight hours (stated by AVIC). Trainers like the L-15 go up to 12,000 flight hours. And yes they should know which features are critical; this is something called experience, and they have already at least four to five decades worth of that from building the first ever MiG in China, not to mention Tupolevs, Ilyushins and Antonovs. So the hydraulic system had a bug on the Q-5s in 1975, are you weighing some double standard here? Look at the record of both civilian and military aircraft, and you have many issues that cause grounding of entire fleets, even if the makers have half a century of making planes behind them. The Russians with much greater experience still had a major quality issue on the AL-31F engines in this decade from both its Chinese and Indian customers.

The J-11B is not for export, and there has never been an indication of such.

The Russians knew that China had been trying to produce their own Su-27 version since 2001. The Chinese didn't keep it a secret either, and in fact, announced that on June 2003, had the first successful flight test of a WS-10A on a J-11 testbed, and on December 2003, announced the first flight of the J-11B prototype on the PLAAF journal. And what did they do about it?

And there is no fervent discussion going on either about this matter.

 

[Viktor]

Well China military is most comprised of other nations weapon knock off. Most of its equipment is not designed on its own from start to end. From copy-pasting to stealing defence secrets China has being able to keep up (to the point) with the rest of the world.
No helicopter no plane has bein ever designed in China without anyones help or without copy-pasting. China still uses hundreds of copy-pasted Mig-21 and that says it all. Well thats not helthy way to go. Now that Russian defence budget is on the sharp rise and there is no lifting of EU arms embargo (cant realy relly on US too anymore) China will have to go on its own and I dont see them capable of keeping up with the rest.

They will sooner or later need to comply with the Russians in order to advance their military but than new sharper terms will have to be established as well as price.

China quaility control is another issue and story for itself.

 

[Schumacher]

.....
They will sooner or later need to comply with the Russians in order to advance their military but than new sharper terms will have to be established as well as price.
.........

Just as the article at at the top says exports have dropped & no more news contracts. Russia really needs to actually come up with products that work rather than relying on wishful thinking & salesman talk like yours here to get more contract let alone ones with better terms.

 

[tphuang]

oh dear, where do I start.

Given China's past history of making knock-offs of Russian MiGs (which for decades were the backbone of China's air force), even the Russians shouldn't be surprised by this development. The real questions are how much of this presumed Russian angst is real, and how much is just posturing.

The following are the developments that we should watch for:

• Are the Russians truly prepared to cut-off arms shipments to China? There are a number of outstanding contracts - most notably for the delivery of the AL-31F engines that power both China's Su-27s and J-10 fleet - that could be affected.

• 
  the AL-31Fs ordered were for the old su-27s, not J-11B. The AL-31FN ordered are probably for a combination of new and replacements for J-10s. Most of the J-10s produced this year are expected to use wS-10A.
  

  [*]Is China prepared to export the J-11 without Russian approval and involvement? If so, I'd expect Russia to suspend a wide range of contracts with China, both military and non-military alike.

  The entire part about China wanting to export J-11 has zero basis. There is no military contract left for the Russians to suspend other than possibly Mi-171. Not giving China the mass production deal for Mi-171 is the only one I can think of. Of the non-military ones, I suppose stopping energy export will be a huge threat, but then you are escalating this issue to a whole new level. China is certainly not afraid of playing hardball.
  

  [*]Will the Chinese-developed airplane develop quality issues as it ages? It will take a number of years to determine if this happens. When you reverse-engineer a product, you often don't know which features are critical and which dimensions can be allowed to float. That lack of underlying knowledge can show up in some nasty ways. China's entire Q-5 fleet was grounded for a time back in 1975, due to issues with the hydraulic system that cost a number of pilots their lives. Copying and modifying aircraft components is not the same as producing an automobile or tank. You can't park an airplane on a cloud when it breaks down.

  read what Crobato has to say. No need for me to repeat
  

  [*]Finally, have the Chinese really mastered the most complex subsystem of a modern jet fighter - it's engine? Chinese electronics can be substituted for Russian electronics. Aircraft components are mostly aluminum and titanium alloy - something that China should have experience with manufacturing from their days producing MiG knock-offs. But the engine adds a whole new level of complexity, with specialized alloys and manufacturing processes. China's experience producing MiG's won't help them here. Aircraft engine technology has changed significantly since the 1960s. Only time will tell if China's purported success with its WS-10A is real, or only a propaganda vehicle being used as a bargaining chip to secure better access to Russian technology.

yes, it has reached mass production. The production level is expected to reach around 100 for this year.

If China has really matched the Russian manufacturing base - then I would expect to see China prepared to forge ahead as a one-on-one competitor for jet aircraft sales. There would be no reason to continue importing Russian engines, for example, if China really has mastered all that they claim they have. There would be no reason to re-sell Russian RD-33 engines to power Pakistan's JF-17, for example, if China thought they could produce an equivalent on their own.

RD-93 is only a temporary issue. WS-13 is only about a year away from certification. And unlike the Russians, China does not export its best stuff.

More likely, however, is that there is a lot of maneuvering and posturing going on. China is not going to want to give up its access to Russian experience with the Su-27 until they know that they really have a viable home-grown option (that doesn't enter a mid-life crisis due to quality defects). The Russians in turn, will want continued access to China's defense market. I would expect to see a lot of bargaining going on during the coming months.

lol, it's wholly indigenized. Any part that is not can easily be done so. The Russians are the ones that kept on delivering products that are below the expected performance to China.

No helicopter no plane has bein ever designed in China without anyones help or without copy-pasting. China still uses hundreds of copy-pasted Mig-21 and that says it all. Well thats not helthy way to go. Now that Russian defence budget is on the sharp rise and there is no lifting of EU arms embargo (cant realy relly on US too anymore) China will have to go on its own and I dont see them capable of keeping up with the rest.

which country did JH-7A get help or copy pasted from? Russians still have old Migs in their storage, what's your point? You are refusing to see facts, but relying on perceptions.

Compared to the MKI and it's derivatives, the Su-27SK is pretty outdated. With the Su-35BM just around the corner (arms-tass mentioned it as one of the airplanes Libya may have purchased in the recent 2.5 billion arms deal) it shouldn't be a major export competitor.

J-11B is not sk. Take a look at its subsystems first. Again, it's not available for export.

 

[Feanor]

If it's not available for export, and it's already less advanced then the MKI's sold to India, then I don't understand why Russian government is angry (except perhaps lost revenues of the additional SK sales).

 

[Falstaff]

[*]Will the Chinese-developed airplane develop quality issues as it ages? It will take a number of years to determine if this happens. When you reverse-engineer a product, you often don't know which features are critical and which dimensions can be allowed to float. That lack of underlying knowledge can show up in some nasty ways. China's entire Q-5 fleet was grounded for a time back in 1975, due to issues with the hydraulic system that cost a number of pilots their lives. Copying and modifying aircraft components is not the same as producing an automobile or tank. You can't park an airplane on a cloud when it breaks down.


...

If China has really matched the Russian manufacturing base - then I would expect to see China prepared to forge ahead as a one-on-one competitor for jet aircraft sales.

This is a very important thing- manufacturing and material technologies and quality management are absolutely crucial aspects when producing (not only) fighter jets. If you reengineer something and you know how all the parts look like it still doesn't mean you know how to produce them properly.
In this respect our chinese friends still have a very long way to go, which is good for us, because e.g. all the chinese copies of german stuff miss german quality levels by a very wide margin. And then, if you leave the copy/paste-path you often still lack certain technologies you gain when you develop stuff over decades or even centuries instead of just copying, a very good example being chinese cars (e.g. the Brilliance, look at this [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F06LjugtIUo&feature=related"]crash test[/ame]).
And then, the more complex something becomes, the more trouble-prone it is. Remember the bars that suddenly appeared on the J-10's air intake?

Nevertheless, they achieved a lot during the last decades, but I think in the foreseeable future those who can can afford them will buy western and russian fighters. Those who can't (or won't get them for political reasons, like Zimbabwe or Sudan) will buy chinese. No need to worry for the russians.

 

[crobato]

As for the Brilliance, the makers went back for another test in three months and managed to get a four star crash rating after the two stars they got from this one.

There is nothing "quality" about Russian jets to begin with, starting with the obnoxious hinge design on the IL-76, which if the door is sucked out would tear half the fuselage with it, to the rusting rivets in the Su-27s. One of the rationale in fact for the Chinese to produce their own jets was because of the quality issues they have on the Russian material. The Chinese nickname for the Su-27 in the PLAAF is the "Most" they say, requires most technicians to maintain, most defects.

What bars suddenly appeared in the J-10's intake? From the very beginning, the bars are there with prototype 01. In planes with side variable intakes using ramp design, you can see bars if you peep between the space between the main diverter and the fuselage. I don't really see anything wrong with that. Similar bars also appear on the MiG 1.44 project if you look closely.

Look at the J-7s. The original MiG-21F was a agile but limited design. While the Russians redesigned the Fishbed, which made the plane seriously gained weight and lost maneuverbility, the Chinese did expanded on the MiG-21F design by strengthening the wing to add two tanks; the original MiG-21F could not tank on the wings which seriously limited its operational range. From two pylons only the strengthened wing could now hold four pylons, with one point able to hold both a tank and an AAM at the same time. In the J-7E's wing, they wetted the wing so it could store fuel inside. The double delta with automated wing slats also featured an increase in wing surface area, and this helped improve the low speed abilities of the jet compared to the classic delta winged Fishbed. The adjustable intake is converted from a manual 3 position system to an automatic variable position system that adjusts based on wind speed and altitude.

 

[fltworthy]

You seem to forget that when you manufacture the MiG knockoffs, you also manufacture the engines that power the knockoffs.

The manufacturing technologies required for producing modern engines, like the AL-31F or RD-33/-93 are worlds beyond anything that goes into the older-generation MiG engines developed during the 1950s.

oh dear, where do I start.
RD-93 is only a temporary issue. WS-13 is only about a year away from certification.

So far, the WS-13 has only proven my point. Given the choice between buying a Chinese-developed JF-17 with a Russian-supplied engine, or buying the same airplane with a Chinese-developed engine, Pakistan has chosen to sign-up for the Russian engine. Whatever claims China's propaganda machine might want to make, when it comes time to put money on the table, no one (so far) has been willing to take their chances with the Chinese duplicate.

 

[crobato]

The manufacturing technologies required for producing modern engines, like the AL-31F or RD-33/-93 are worlds beyond anything that goes into the older-generation MiG engines developed during the 1950s.

It does not matter, since the WS-10 which was first flown in the nineties, and the WS-10A, which first flew in 2002, are already here and going in the J-11Bs. The Chinese do have single crystal blade technology since the early 2000s.

So far, the WS-13 has only proven my point. Given the choice between buying a Chinese-developed JF-17 with a Russian-supplied engine, or buying the same airplane with a Chinese-developed engine, Pakistan has chosen to sign-up for the Russian engine. Whatever claims China's propaganda machine might want to make, when it comes time to put money on the table, no one (so far) has been willing to take their chances with the Chinese duplicate.

Actually it was Pakistan that didn't like the Russian engine (still smoky and political liability) but had no choice on the matter until the WS-13 can be made ready.

 

[Falstaff]

What bars suddenly appeared in the J-10's intake? From the very beginning, the bars are there with prototype 01.

No, they were retrofitted for stability.

 

[Viktor]

Well Pakistan is opting for Italian radar as well for they FC-1 and that tells something too.

China army has gained boom in arms industry due to Russian willingless to permit weapos desigers knowledge flow to China ... witch had as a result lots of systems and subsystems China has being strugeling fr compleation for decades to be compleated and enter operational service. Most obivious thing is the number and scale of China weapons system operational introduced since it had good relations with Russians and ultill then.

Now when they are left on they own .. we will see what new systems will they introduce ...

 

[Schumacher]

...........

Now when they are left on they own .. we will see what new systems will they introduce ...

Well, PLA has shown little reluctance in the past to buy Russian IF the Russians can deliver better products than Chinese indigenous ones.
More than anything else, it's Russia's falling behind in its ability to meet PLA's requirements in terms of quality & capabilities that has boosted the Chinese indigenous arms industries.

 

[Schumacher]

If it's not available for export, and it's already less advanced then the MKI's sold to India, then I don't understand why Russian government is angry (except perhaps lost revenues of the additional SK sales).

Why are the Russians angry now ? Who knows ? Posturing to gain some advantage is routine in all kinds of dealings even far simpler than the ones between nations like this Sino-Russian one.
Maybe the Russians have finally realized no more major Chinese contracts will come ie the time has come to burn the bridges.

 

[Viktor]

Well, PLA has shown little reluctance in the past to buy Russian IF the Russians can deliver better products than Chinese indigenous ones.
More than anything else, it's Russia's falling behind in its ability to meet PLA's requirements in terms of quality & capabilities that has boosted the Chinese indigenous arms industries.

Well perhaps but I dont see it that way... China had no transport, airrefuling, AWACS, atack helo, modern bombers etc etc but choose to go on good knows what ways (with Ukraine, something from Belarus) etc ...

Russia in the meatime produced who loot of other system and are developing newer ones that are simply no where to be found in China inventory...

 

[Schumacher]

Well perhaps but I dont see it that way... China had no transport, airrefuling, AWACS, atack helo, modern bombers etc etc but choose to go on good knows what ways (with Ukraine, something from Belarus) etc ...
.........

My friend, it's not abt how one likes/dislikes to see it. The fact is China went from the biggest buyer to now an almost complete stop in new orders.
If it's indeed true PLA is buying from Ukraine, it probably shows Russian arms industries are not only falling behind Chinese ones but also other nations' as well.

 

[Viktor]

Why are the Russians angry now ? Who knows ? Posturing to gain some advantage is routine in all kinds of dealings even far simpler than the ones between nations like this Sino-Russian one.
Maybe the Russians have finally realized no more major Chinese contracts will come ie the time has come to burn the bridges.

Why are Russians angry ... well for instance .. China is bigest operator of P-18 Spoon Rest radar that guides about 65 HQ-2 (Russian copy-paste) batteries ... when Serbs shot down F-117 that was done with P-18 Spoon Rest radar who recived digital solid state upgrade by NNIIRT ... well China stole the tehnology that makes "stealth" fighters visible without paying to the Russians ... only one among hundreds of similar thifes acts ... so why are Russians mad ...LOL

If China has such great military industrial complex ...LOL they would produce somthing on they own ... but no