Russia infuriated with Chinese export copies of Su-27 jet fighters

qwerty223

New Member
Responding to one persons post of China not having this and that:

Attack Helo: Z-9W, Z-10 [pure attack heli not like the Z-9W)
AWACS: KJ-2000, KJ-200, Y-8 Roto
Transport: Y-8, Z-9
AAM:pL-12, PL-8
Aerial Refuelling: Converted H-6 bomber
Bomber: JH-7A

Yes so what does Russia have that cannot already China's domestic industry cannot provide then???

I spy some Sinodefence members here :)
Well,
Z-10/9 whos engine are they using?
PL-12 whos sensors and tech are the base of it?
H6 does it looks quite familiar?
KJ-2000 or whatsoever, whos platform are they using?
JH-7 it is still at the stage before it reaches the standard production model . After "in service" for a decade.
 

crobato

New Member
Modern versions of all of the above :rolleyes:
Modern what? The Russians don't have modern ships, with the exception of a single overpriced frigate versus the Luyangs, Houbeis and Jiangkais being put in place. China certainly don't need subs from them either, considering its only the Lada that's up to the Yuan's level, and the Lada hasn't passed its trials, while the Yuan is in a full series production now. Nuclear subs might be interesting but they're never for sale anyway and China already got their own programs going. They already got their modern helicopter, the WZ-10, and modern tanks, the ZTZ-96G and ZTZ-99G and G1. The only thing I can think of buying Russian are transport helicopters and planes, neither of which are really very modern too, just that the Chinese may already be too spread out developing everything so they left gaps. The Chinese artillery is outdated but the answer to that is build more PLZ-05 and PLZ-45 not buy Russian, which is going to be a contradiction to the PLA logistical system. Su-34? The old H-6 has three times the fuel capacity and has way more space to put equipment. By making the H-6 even more efficient, you will get far better payload, range and loiter.
 

crobato

New Member
Well,
Z-10/9 whos engine are they using?
PL-12 whos sensors and tech are the base of it?
H6 does it looks quite familiar?
KJ-2000 or whatsoever, whos platform are they using?
JH-7 it is still at the stage before it reaches the standard production model . After "in service" for a decade.
The WZ-10 is using an engine that's copied off from Pratt and Whitney, not from the Russians.

The PL-12 is not depending on Russian sensors and techs. The Chinese have developed an AAM ARH seeker since the 90s in the form of the AMR-1, and that was before they ever saw a single R-77.

The H-6 was something they got from the Russians back in the early fifties. Please note that the design actually works well, and China has actually refused any other Russian marketing attempts to sell Tu-22s.

The KJ-2000 uses used IL-76s as platforms, but really, its the radar that counts not the platform. You don't need to buy that from the Russians either. The most important thing is that China isn't buying A-50s, whose phase array version has yet to be deployed, while there are already two flights of KJ-2000s.

The JH-7A is already in service and mass production since 2003, and there are already five regiments of the plane.
 

crobato

New Member
The PLAAF is getting their IL-76s from the CAU airline, which has served as a civilian front for the PLAAF anyway, e.g. using civil Tupolevs as spy planes. There is plenty of used IL-76s from small airlines serving the central Asian routes. If you remember, one IL-76 crashed in the runaway overloaded with cheap Chinese goods a few years ago.

As for the JH-7s and JH-7As, you are correct. The two regiments of JH-7 with the 6th are avionically the same as the JH-7A however, the second regiment being built with the JH-7A's electronics right at the start and the first regiment having upgraded.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Modern what? The Russians don't have modern ships, with the exception of a single overpriced frigate versus the Luyangs, Houbeis and Jiangkais being put in place. China certainly don't need subs from them either, considering its only the Lada that's up to the Yuan's level, and the Lada hasn't passed its trials, while the Yuan is in a full series production now. Nuclear subs might be interesting but they're never for sale anyway and China already got their own programs going. They already got their modern helicopter, the WZ-10, and modern tanks, the ZTZ-96G and ZTZ-99G and G1. The only thing I can think of buying Russian are transport helicopters and planes, neither of which are really very modern too, just that the Chinese may already be too spread out developing everything so they left gaps. The Chinese artillery is outdated but the answer to that is build more PLZ-05 and PLZ-45 not buy Russian, which is going to be a contradiction to the PLA logistical system. Su-34? The old H-6 has three times the fuel capacity and has way more space to put equipment. By making the H-6 even more efficient, you will get far better payload, range and loiter.
But unlike the H-6 itself a Tu-16 derivative, the Su-34 is a tactical bomber. Horribly outdated, the H-6 not a tactical bomber in the first place. It's modern Russian analogue would be the Tu-160 or Tu-22M5. The Su-34 carries far superior avionics, including TERCOM capabilities. It also has A2A capacity, meaning effectively self-escort. The H-6 also doesn't have inflight refuel, which the Fullback does. Internal fuel storage is higher, but payload is identical at 8000 kg for both. Given availability of external fuel tanks and in-flight refuel, and essentially a different mission profile, that seems to not be a major disadvantage (if a disadvantage at all). Finally a comprehensive ECM suite and tail-mounted radar all offer it distinct advantages over the H-6. Interestingly enough the Su-34 even offers significant progress in crew comfort (a traditional weak spot for Russian equipment). Your comparison there is laughable.

Chinese production of the new ZTZ-99 has been progressing very slowly (certainly slower then Indian purchase of the T-90S). As far as I know only around 200 are in service right now. Artillery production has also been very slow. Is it lack of funds? Or lack of facilities? If it's lack of facilities purchases of Russian equipment could at least temporarily serve as a substitute. Finally you've completely ignored SAM's which are a major part of modern warfare. Russia is so far ahead of Chinese SAM design that purchasing Russian theater level SAMs (unlikely anyone else is willing to sell) is practically the only way of acquiring modern AD-network for China. Remember China still has SA-2 in service.

I'm not experienced enough with ships to comment there.
 

qwerty223

New Member
The WZ-10 is using an engine that's copied off from Pratt and Whitney, not from the Russians.

The PL-12 is not depending on Russian sensors and techs. The Chinese have developed an AAM ARH seeker since the 90s in the form of the AMR-1, and that was before they ever saw a single R-77.

The H-6 was something they got from the Russians back in the early fifties. Please note that the design actually works well, and China has actually refused any other Russian marketing attempts to sell Tu-22s.

The KJ-2000 uses used IL-76s as platforms, but really, its the radar that counts not the platform. You don't need to buy that from the Russians either. The most important thing is that China isn't buying A-50s, whose phase array version has yet to be deployed, while there are already two flights of KJ-2000s.

The JH-7A is already in service and mass production since 2003, and there are already five regiments of the plane.
JH-7A the platform itself had a mass production, not its FCS suite.

Why no Tu-22m? because gameplay changed.

We all know where is the source for PL-12 seeker.

As of the KJ2000 & WZ10, my point is that they need an engine source. The Russian can offer all the tech it needs since they can provide a full scale of Heli engines. The matter lies on whether the Chinese want assistance from the Russian. All the critical components of these complex need to be out sourced, certainly the Russian will have a chance. Although the Russian might no been able to offer the best of the world, but at least it is better than none for the Chinese. After all, the Russian talks about money and less humanity.
 

PrOeLiTeZ

New Member
JH-7A the platform itself had a mass production, not its FCS suite.

Why no Tu-22m? because gameplay changed.

We all know where is the source for PL-12 seeker.

As of the KJ2000 & WZ10, my point is that they need an engine source. The Russian can offer all the tech it needs since they can provide a full scale of Heli engines. The matter lies on whether the Chinese want assistance from the Russian. All the critical components of these complex need to be out sourced, certainly the Russian will have a chance. Although the Russian might no been able to offer the best of the world, but at least it is better than none for the Chinese. After all, the Russian talks about money and less humanity.
Z-10/Z-9 are not equipped with Russian engines, their are equipped Canadian Pratt and Whitney derivatives. More than adequately required.

PL-12 not based of Russian technology either, its more in the lines of AMRAAM.

No new bomber needed, H-6 is fuel efficient, pretty good range and payload for its consideration of weight and cheap unit cost.

JH-7A has been in serice for a very long time. So dunno what you are even talking about 70+ units are in operational status in serving both in PLANAF and PLAAF. The JH-7A is currently the standard and prefered marintime attack fighter bomber. As well as A2G.

KJ-2000 its the electronics that really matter, even if Russia didn't supply anymore IL-76 China can just place them on Y-8 as seen with the KJ-200.

Transport heli China has got good ties with their European partners who are quite capable and experience in producing top notch heli for all purposes.

Russia had its chances to reap lots of beneficial money from China during the 90's but they didn't. Even India is starting to walk away from Russian military equipment right now. While China exporting military hardware is on the rise. In Naval, and Aviation also.

WS-10A power their J-10/11 fleet
WS-13 power their JF-17 fleet
 

crobato

New Member
The JH-7A is in mass production. Its FCS is not Russian but from Leihua Institute.

As for the PL-12, the seeker is also from Leihua---who designed the AMR-1 seeker and the seekers for the YJ series----and not from AGAT as many claim.

As for the WZ-10, the question is already moot since China already picked the PW engines for the prototypes, and the next stage will be copying those engines.

As for the KJ-2000, China does indeed have an outstanding order for D-30A engines, which brings a lot of money for the Russians.

After all, that's what the Russians really wanted, right? More orders. More money. The new Russian President just said he wants closer ties to China, and a visit is planned soon. I suggest leave the politicians be. They will work something out eventually.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2008-05/08/content_6668795.htm
 

crobato

New Member
But unlike the H-6 itself a Tu-16 derivative, the Su-34 is a tactical bomber. Horribly outdated, the H-6 not a tactical bomber in the first place. It's modern Russian analogue would be the Tu-160 or Tu-22M5. The Su-34 carries far superior avionics, including TERCOM capabilities. It also has A2A capacity, meaning effectively self-escort. The H-6 also doesn't have inflight refuel, which the Fullback does. Internal fuel storage is higher, but payload is identical at 8000 kg for both. Given availability of external fuel tanks and in-flight refuel, and essentially a different mission profile, that seems to not be a major disadvantage (if a disadvantage at all). Finally a comprehensive ECM suite and tail-mounted radar all offer it distinct advantages over the H-6. Interestingly enough the Su-34 even offers significant progress in crew comfort (a traditional weak spot for Russian equipment). Your comparison there is laughable.
You have no idea that the updated H-6s share nothing with the Tu-16 but the airframes. Everything in the electronic sense are generations ahead, including digital cockpits. The upgraded H-6K does not necessarily have inferior avionics than the Su-34. Updated avionics are an issue separate from the platform. For instance, the H-6K, which has a solid nose, can put a radar far larger than you can have over the Su-34. Furthermore, the aircraft being larger, can hold much more in terms of electrical generation and electronic equipment. How can the Su-34 be better in terms of ECM when practically much of the Soviet/Russian research on this issue became underfunded after the Cold War, where as Chinese counterintelligence efforts began to rise afterwards. Since the 90s, the Chinese have been much more diligent with espionage and data collection efforts, since the crux of any ECM is to know the signals you need to spoof at.

Crew comfort please? The H-6 can hold a small crew rather than just two persons, and there is more room to move about. As for TERCOM, the JH-7A already has that.

The Su-34 is based on an outdated concept, mainly low level penetrating interdictors, a concept that died in the nineties. We're now back to flying high, away from low level interdictors, to high level cruise missile and stand off munition launchers. You want to be as high as possible to get the maximum range for your cruise missiles like the DH-10, KD-63 or YJ-62, or winged munitions like the LS-6.

The Tu-16 itself ia sound design, like the B-52 or even the Tu-95---the latter plane is something the PLAAF indeed should have, which I would honestly much prefer over the Su-34. These big planes have much greater loitering capabilities. They could stay up longer, cruise longer. With their big wings, they can cruise at higher altitudes more economically, and has less aerodynamic consequences carrying large cruise missiles than a fighter based platform.

As a matter of fact, a modified H-6 is the platform used to launch China's air launched recoverable space vehicular project.

Chinese production of the new ZTZ-99 has been progressing very slowly (certainly slower then Indian purchase of the T-90S). As far as I know only around 200 are in service right now.
We got news from the CDF that 220 more tanks were built in the last year or so. The reason is that the PLA wasn't completely satisfied with the ZTZ-99 but seems much more encouraging so with the ZTZ-99G. Another thing is that China is also mass producing a cheaper more cost effective substitute, the ZTZ-96 and now 96G, of which at least 1500 to 2000 may have been built already. They won't put that many eggs in those models since another tank model (99G1 or 99A) might be introduced soon.

The other reason is funds. The Army itself has become less important, and the crux of the modernization has shifted to the Air Force and the Navy, which is now considered the front line of defense.

The lack of funds only means they would buy Russian even less. Considering of all the branches, the Army itself bought the least Russian material compared to the Air Force and Navy, and that was already in its most obsolete period. In fact, you can say in two words what the Army only bought---Mi-171 helos and Tor-M1s. Today, the Russian material costs a lot more thanks to Russia's double digit inflation.


Artillery production has also been very slow. Is it lack of funds? Or lack of facilities? If it's lack of facilities purchases of Russian equipment could at least temporarily serve as a substitute. Finally you've completely ignored SAM's which are a major part of modern warfare. Russia is so far ahead of Chinese SAM design that purchasing Russian theater level SAMs (unlikely anyone else is willing to sell) is practically the only way of acquiring modern AD-network for China. Remember China still has SA-2 in service.
The Chinese did not purchase a lot of Russian theatre SAMs. As a matter of fact, the Chinese have begun to deploy the HQ-9 in land bases. Remember, the naval version of such is already with two of the PLAN's destroyers, and that system has a full four faced 360 degree coverage which the RIF-M does not have. The PLAN is no procuring any more RIF-M. Given that the last of the S-300PMU2s are going to be delivered soon, there has not been talks of renewed and follow up orders.

China has stopped procuring the Tor-M1 some time ago, and has not even order the Buks. The PLA still relies on updated versions of the HQ-7 and recently the KS-1A which is supported by a phase array. As for the SA-2s, those electronics have been changed as well.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
You have no idea that the updated H-6s share nothing with the Tu-16 but the airframes. Everything in the electronic sense are generations ahead, including digital cockpits. The upgraded H-6K does not necessarily have inferior avionics than the Su-34. Updated avionics are an issue separate from the platform. For instance, the H-6K, which has a solid nose, can put a radar far larger than you can have over the Su-34. Furthermore, the aircraft being larger, can hold much more in terms of electrical generation and electronic equipment. How can the Su-34 be better in terms of ECM when practically much of the Soviet/Russian research on this issue became underfunded after the Cold War, where as Chinese counterintelligence efforts began to rise afterwards. Since the 90s, the Chinese have been much more diligent with espionage and data collection efforts, since the crux of any ECM is to know the signals you need to spoof at.
Alright, point taken. None the less you're still ignoring that they're two different platforms, meant for two different types of missions.

Crew comfort please? The H-6 can hold a small crew rather than just two persons, and there is more room to move about. As for TERCOM, the JH-7A already has that.
Your claim of superiority was in regard to the H-6 not the JH-7.

The Su-34 is based on an outdated concept, mainly low level penetrating interdictors, a concept that died in the nineties. We're now back to flying high, away from low level interdictors, to high level cruise missile and stand off munition launchers. You want to be as high as possible to get the maximum range for your cruise missiles like the DH-10, KD-63 or YJ-62, or winged munitions like the LS-6.
I would imagine, it's a valuable asset in SEAD or even tactical strike (though some redundancy with the Su-25).

The Tu-16 itself ia sound design, like the B-52 or even the Tu-95---the latter plane is something the PLAAF indeed should have, which I would honestly much prefer over the Su-34. These big planes have much greater loitering capabilities. They could stay up longer, cruise longer. With their big wings, they can cruise at higher altitudes more economically, and has less aerodynamic consequences carrying large cruise missiles than a fighter based platform.
Again different mission profiles.

The Chinese did not purchase a lot of Russian theatre SAMs. As a matter of fact, the Chinese have begun to deploy the HQ-9 in land bases. Remember, the naval version of such is already with two of the PLAN's destroyers, and that system has a full four faced 360 degree coverage which the RIF-M does not have. The PLAN is no procuring any more RIF-M. Given that the last of the S-300PMU2s are going to be delivered soon, there has not been talks of renewed and follow up orders.
The HQ-9 has been procured in limited numbres, and is also somewhat deficient in range. Only 100km. While superior to baseline S-300 systems, the newer variants are all superior in range. Not to mention that the s-300 is a yesteryear system. The S-400 has already entered serial production.

We got news from the CDF that 220 more tanks were built in the last year or so. The reason is that the PLA wasn't completely satisfied with the ZTZ-99 but seems much more encouraging so with the ZTZ-99G. Another thing is that China is also mass producing a cheaper more cost effective substitute, the ZTZ-96 and now 96G, of which at least 1500 to 2000 may have been built already. They won't put that many eggs in those models since another tank model (99G1 or 99A) might be introduced soon.
Source please. I'm not doubting your words, just interested in where you got the info.

China has stopped procuring the Tor-M1 some time ago, and has not even order the Buks. The PLA still relies on updated versions of the HQ-7 and recently the KS-1A which is supported by a phase array. As for the SA-2s, those electronics have been changed as well.
You can modernize something to no end, but it will still be inferior to newer systems.

In any event my point seems to stand (despite certain valid arguments on your part) China does have things to gain from trade with Russia.
 

tphuang

Super Moderator
I think people are forgetting that IL-76 is by far the biggest deal that the Russians are holding against China. If China is willing to hold out on something that critical (it goes far more than just transport), do you really think it won't hold out on maintenance?

Existing Su-27s and J-11s run on the AL-31 engines. I don't think Ukraine and Belarus produces the AL-31 engines. As far as I understand, Russia has completely stopped deliveries of engines.
you should read about the deal Shenyang Liming signed with Salyut then.
Duplicating engine spares is not as easy as it sounds. If not, it will mean re-engining close to 400-500 aircraft. Well, that can be done. Whether it is worth doing is another issue.
they have less than 300 flankers from Russia and about 50 of them are ready to put into reserves anyways.
Having the entire cream of the air force crop lying in the hangers for the next few years whilst china cranks out the engines will be a military issue. China is not going to turn out 1,000 engines overnight. They're going to have serious serviceability issues.
cream of crop? J-10 is the cream of PLAAF. They are only looking for 180 engines from the Russians according to that last deal they signed for AL-31s and got a bunch of it. You are really overstating a small problem.
Repairing or servicing ships or subs is one thing. Getting the right spare parts is another.
As Crobato said, complete refitting. They put their own stuff on the kilos. They have the technology to do this.
Whether China is taking this seriously and talking to the Russians right now? It doesn't take a genius to guess...
They are talking to Russians due to political reasons (maintaining friendship) rather than technical reasons.
And I wonder how is Pakistan going to maintain the FC-1/RD-93 engines without Russian support.
Ukraine. China lacks the capability to produce RD-93, but it has the license and capability to certainly maintain it. Besides, WS-13 was designed for FC-1 right from the start.

So indigenization of Russian/Soviet technology with Chinese mods?
The part about Sea Eagle being indigenization of Russian tech is fallacy. Same with HH-16. I would grant the FCRs, but that's only because we don't have more information on it. If you look at the stuff they are testing on 891 recently, you'd know how outlandish the claims are.

It is slightly off topic, my apologies, but I have to disagree with you there. India actually has gotten some pretty good deals, especially in terms of technical documentation. Unless you're referencing the Gorshkov deal, I don't see where you're coming from.
i'm referring to the price hikes on T-90, su-30, the problems with Club and IL-38 upgrade and the delays in Talwar. Interesting enough, the last deal for 100 AL-31FN was actually carried out at losses for Salyut.

Usually at comperable power output, they are in terms of detection and track radii. But thats only a small part of assesing a radars capability, ECCM, scan rates, muti target track and engagement and performance in high clutter environments are significantly better in PESA's over MSA's. AESA's are a whole other kettle of fish....
you do realize Bars is a combination of PESA and MSA, right?
As for multi-target engagements, do you really think J-11B will ever be using that against stealth and stealthy targets that it will undoubtedly face?
PLAAF is actually following USAF path of skipping PESA going straight to AESA.

Z-10/9 whos engine are they using?
PL-12 whos sensors and tech are the base of it?
H6 does it looks quite familiar?
Z-10 is using WZ-9 for mass production run. The original PWC engines were broght in purely for prototype while WZ-9 was being developed.
PL-12 using Russian tech has zero basis.
H-6K right now is completely different from the original Tu-16. According to the reports, 70% of the airframe was modified from an earlier H-6 variant. It also has entirely new avionics, weapons system + ejection seating.
JH-7A the platform itself had a mass production, not its FCS suite.

Why no Tu-22m? because gameplay changed.

We all know where is the source for PL-12 seeker.

As of the KJ2000 & WZ10, my point is that they need an engine source. The Russian can offer all the tech it needs since they can provide a full scale of Heli engines. The matter lies on whether the Chinese want assistance from the Russian. All the critical components of these complex need to be out sourced, certainly the Russian will have a chance. Although the Russian might no been able to offer the best of the world, but at least it is better than none for the Chinese. After all, the Russian talks about money and less humanity.
You gotta be kidding. JH-7A FCS not in mass production?
tu-22M? they are not interested in old units.
We all know about source of PL-12 seeker, but you clearly don't.
You have no point with regard to Z-10, it uses WZ-9 by 608 Institute. It's completely different from KJ-2000.
 

qwerty223

New Member
I think people are forgetting that IL-76 is by far the biggest deal that the Russians are holding against China. If China is willing to hold out on something that critical (it goes far more than just transport), do you really think it won't hold out on maintenance?


you should read about the deal Shenyang Liming signed with Salyut then.

they have less than 300 flankers from Russia and about 50 of them are ready to put into reserves anyways.

cream of crop? J-10 is the cream of PLAAF. They are only looking for 180 engines from the Russians according to that last deal they signed for AL-31s and got a bunch of it. You are really overstating a small problem.

As Crobato said, complete refitting. They put their own stuff on the kilos. They have the technology to do this.

They are talking to Russians due to political reasons (maintaining friendship) rather than technical reasons.

Ukraine. China lacks the capability to produce RD-93, but it has the license and capability to certainly maintain it. Besides, WS-13 was designed for FC-1 right from the start.


The part about Sea Eagle being indigenization of Russian tech is fallacy. Same with HH-16. I would grant the FCRs, but that's only because we don't have more information on it. If you look at the stuff they are testing on 891 recently, you'd know how outlandish the claims are.


i'm referring to the price hikes on T-90, su-30, the problems with Club and IL-38 upgrade and the delays in Talwar. Interesting enough, the last deal for 100 AL-31FN was actually carried out at losses for Salyut.


you do realize Bars is a combination of PESA and MSA, right?
As for multi-target engagements, do you really think J-11B will ever be using that against stealth and stealthy targets that it will undoubtedly face?
PLAAF is actually following USAF path of skipping PESA going straight to AESA.


Z-10 is using WZ-9 for mass production run. The original PWC engines were broght in purely for prototype while WZ-9 was being developed.
PL-12 using Russian tech has zero basis.
H-6K right now is completely different from the original Tu-16. According to the reports, 70% of the airframe was modified from an earlier H-6 variant. It also has entirely new avionics, weapons system + ejection seating.

You gotta be kidding. JH-7A FCS not in mass production?
tu-22M? they are not interested in old units.
We all know about source of PL-12 seeker, but you clearly don't.
You have no point with regard to Z-10, it uses WZ-9 by 608 Institute. It's completely different from KJ-2000.
Lol... U are a joke. Show me fact? But anyways, all you can show are those from sinodefence, the big summarize of internet rumors.
 

crobato

New Member
Alright, point taken. None the less you're still ignoring that they're two different platforms, meant for two different types of missions.

Your claim of superiority was in regard to the H-6 not the JH-7.
The fact remains that the Su-34 as a concept has gone out of the door with the F-111. China isn't looking for a low level interdictor, its looking for a cruise missile delivery truck.

I never spoke about the JH-7 in the first place.

I would imagine, it's a valuable asset in SEAD or even tactical strike (though some redundancy with the Su-25).
Its overkill for SEAD when cheaper and faster planes can do it, like the Su-30MKK, which can go faster than the Su-34 which can only go up to Mach 1.7 or 1.8. Furthermore, cheaper planes can also do SEAD.

Again different mission profiles.
And again, a mission profile that China no longer needs.

The HQ-9 has been procured in limited numbres, and is also somewhat deficient in range. Only 100km. While superior to baseline S-300 systems, the newer variants are all superior in range. Not to mention that the s-300 is a yesteryear system. The S-400 has already entered serial production.
Its the S-300 that China procured S-300 in limited numbers, and the reason for that is the HQ-9. The PLA never did believe that Russian equipment ever work to spec anyway, so quoting missile ranges don't mean anything. The PLA never did quote their real ranges anyway. At one point, they put 160km in an poster for the C-803, and a year later, the US tracked a YJ-83/C-803 missile flight test launched off from a JH-7 that traveled up to 255km.

Source please. I'm not doubting your words, just interested in where you got the info.
I got this from the CDF, where members pour through PLA documentation and reports, as well as CCTV video clips. I got this specifically from kcandrew who knows a lot more about PLA Army orbat better than you and I.

You can modernize something to no end, but it will still be inferior to newer systems.
It does not matter so long its cost effect and provides the needed bang for the buck.

In any event my point seems to stand (despite certain valid arguments on your part) China does have things to gain from trade with Russia.
Which is what? Certainly not in any terms military, other than jet engines. You're talking about ores, oil and gas right?
 

crobato

New Member
Lol... U are a joke. Show me fact? But anyways, all you can show are those from sinodefence, the big summarize of internet rumors.
We got these from pictures of JH-7s and JH-7As in various airfields, identifying their location via the airfield background, comments and notes with the picture, and most of all the unit number painted in the aircraft. Plus some GE imagery. We do this not only in the SDF, but the CDF as well where one of the forums members who love to pour over this stuff is a retired US air force analyst, who thanks to him allowed us to decode PLAAF unit numbers.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
The fact remains that the Su-34 as a concept has gone out of the door with the F-111. China isn't looking for a low level interdictor, its looking for a cruise missile delivery truck.
So once again we simply differ in opinion here. Keep in mind that the USAF has simply started kitting out fighters for A2G roles to make up the lack of tac-strike.

I never spoke about the JH-7 in the first place.
As for TERCOM, the JH-7A already has that.
Come on :rolleyes:

Its overkill for SEAD when cheaper and faster planes can do it, like the Su-30MKK, which can go faster than the Su-34 which can only go up to Mach 1.7 or 1.8. Furthermore, cheaper planes can also do SEAD.
Again it's main mission profile is tactical strike, or CAS. Also keep in mind the Su-30 doesn't have TERCOM and isn't specifically kitted out for the mission. You're using a multi-purpose fighter jet, when more specialized platforms are available. Finally given a sophisticated AD network with strategic RLS networking large numbers of theater and tac-SAMs, as well as SPAAGs and interceptors I would not call the Fullback overkill.

And again, a mission profile that China no longer needs.
That's your opinion; yes?

Its the S-300 that China procured S-300 in limited numbers, and the reason for that is the HQ-9. The PLA never did believe that Russian equipment ever work to spec anyway, so quoting missile ranges don't mean anything. The PLA never did quote their real ranges anyway. At one point, they put 160km in an poster for the C-803, and a year later, the US tracked a YJ-83/C-803 missile flight test launched off from a JH-7 that traveled up to 255km.
So what is the practical range of the HQ-9?

I got this from the CDF, where members pour through PLA documentation and reports, as well as CCTV video clips. I got this specifically from kcandrew who knows a lot more about PLA Army orbat better than you and I.
I don't suppose you'd be able to give me access to the sources directly, rather then quoting someone on another forum. No disrespect meant, but I'm interested in where people find their information (so that I may possibly find some there too :) ).

It does not matter so long its cost effect and provides the needed bang for the buck.
If China ever ends up in a major conflict we'll get to see. Otherwise it's all theory bash.

Which is what? Certainly not in any terms military, other than jet engines. You're talking about ores, oil and gas right?
Resources are a big part of it, but so is technology. Russia is well into a 5th gen. aircraft program, where as the Chinese are still at the 3rd gen. with the bulk of their airforce.
 

tphuang

Super Moderator
Lol... U are a joke. Show me fact? But anyways, all you can show are those from sinodefence, the big summarize of internet rumors.
Alright, from my past conversations with you, it's clear you don't know much. So, just to point out certain things that I was responding to you about.

On JH-7A, we have 6 confirmed regiments through pictures of them in different part of China + their serial numbers in those pictures + GE photos + news about JH-7A operating in different regiments.
Tu-22M, we know they didn't get it and what more do I need to say?
PL-12 seeker, we have active radar seeker developed by Leihua for SD-10. What more do I need to show?
WZ-9 by 608, this has been published in multiple AVIC1 articles.

I don't rely on Sinodefence.
 

crobato

New Member
So once again we simply differ in opinion here. Keep in mind that the USAF has simply started kitting out fighters for A2G roles to make up the lack of tac-strike.
LOL. You want to get Su-34s to do the job of Q-5s? You need to match the resources to the job.

And the JH-7 has that for quite some time now. What's so hard about an autopilot or flight control system responding to Doppler ground mapping? You think TERCOM is some sort of Martian technology just because it has capitalized acronyms?

Again it's main mission profile is tactical strike, or CAS. Also keep in mind the Su-30 doesn't have TERCOM and isn't specifically kitted out for the mission. You're using a multi-purpose fighter jet, when more specialized platforms are available. Finally given a sophisticated AD network with strategic RLS networking large numbers of theater and tac-SAMs, as well as SPAAGs and interceptors I would not call the Fullback overkill.
And keep in mind that is not what the PLAAF wants. For the cost per bang, the JH-7As can do it better. Not the superior platform but more affordable in numbers. Plus the fact the JH-7A has been extensively tested and integrated with various weapons, pods and ECM equipment. Its a maturing system; the Su-34 is still trying to find buyers.

The JH-7A like the modern H-6s are capable of launching long ranged stand off missiles, like the KD-88s and KD-63s respectively. What's better, to risk the plane or the cruise missile against sophisticated AD defenses? Which cruise missile is already integrated on the Su-34 now?

That's your opinion; yes?
And its your opinion that you think the PLAAF has to be tied down to an F-111/Su-24 strike concept when every other country is moving away from them.

So what is the practical range of the HQ-9?
That would be classified then.

I don't suppose you'd be able to give me access to the sources directly, rather then quoting someone on another forum. No disrespect meant, but I'm interested in where people find their information (so that I may possibly find some there too :) ).
I am quoting from someone who actually reads and researches Chinese material. Its not hard to find Chinese military magazines in the streets of any major Chinese city, flip through the CCTV network, or browse through more than a dozen massive military topic forums in the Chinese mainland or official PLA or government sites.

In the first place, any number you are getting like the 200 you heard previously was from the CDF in the first place, estimated by people I mentioned. So you want to accept the figure they estimated in 2006 but not the one they made in 2008, huh?

If China ever ends up in a major conflict we'll get to see. Otherwise it's all theory bash.
Theory? WWII is basically won by weapons that offer the most bang per the buck.

Resources are a big part of it, but so is technology. Russia is well into a 5th gen. aircraft program, where as the Chinese are still at the 3rd gen. with the bulk of their airforce.
Russia is still looking for funding with their 5th gen program, which is exactly what Sukhoi were depending on their China orders. Despite that, KnAAPO filed suit in order to get the money from those orders to upgrade their plants instead. The Chinese have been funding and working on their fifth gen project for years now. When you compare their air force to Russia's, you will find that far more of their aircraft are at least equipped with the more modern slotted array planar---a standard in Western air forces these days---that are capable of launching active guided BVRAAM. Even J-8IIs are getting upgraded to these, while the Su-27SM upgrades in the RuAF are basically adding modern electronics to an even older generation twist cassegrain design.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
LOL. You want to get Su-34s to do the job of Q-5s? You need to match the resources to the job.

And the JH-7 has that for quite some time now. What's so hard about an autopilot or flight control system responding to Doppler ground mapping? You think TERCOM is some sort of Martian technology just because it has capitalized acronyms?
Your claim was that the H-6 in PLAAF service is superior to the Su-34 being accepted into service right now. Then you pulled the JH-7 out. Which is when I said that your claim of superiority was with the H-6. To which you replied accusing me of glorifying the TERCOM capabilities of the Fullback. Sooo..... now do we have that point clear?

And keep in mind that is not what the PLAAF wants. For the cost per bang, the JH-7As can do it better. Not the superior platform but more affordable in numbers. Plus the fact the JH-7A has been extensively tested and integrated with various weapons, pods and ECM equipment. Its a maturing system; the Su-34 is still trying to find buyers.
It has one buyer so far. The VVS. Time will show if any others emerge.

The JH-7A like the modern H-6s are capable of launching long ranged stand off missiles, like the KD-88s and KD-63s respectively. What's better, to risk the plane or the cruise missile against sophisticated AD defenses? Which cruise missile is already integrated on the Su-34 now?
So you suggest being able to overwhelm the AD network with cruise missiles?

And its your opinion that you think the PLAAF has to be tied down to an F-111/Su-24 strike concept when every other country is moving away from them.
I think that having the tac-strike capability is a good idea, yes. I'm not saying that it should prevent other areas from developing.

That would be classified then.
So.... no reliable info? Do you happen to know the range of the Crotale?

I am quoting from someone who actually reads and researches Chinese material. Its not hard to find Chinese military magazines in the streets of any major Chinese city, flip through the CCTV network, or browse through more than a dozen massive military topic forums in the Chinese mainland or official PLA or government sites.

In the first place, any number you are getting like the 200 you heard previously was from the CDF in the first place, estimated by people I mentioned. So you want to accept the figure they estimated in 2006 but not the one they made in 2008, huh?
Again read what I wrote. You're getting offended at something that wasn't there. I was interested in seeing the original material because I almost always am. Not because I didn't believe you.

Theory? WWII is basically won by weapons that offer the most bang per the buck.
Yes. So if you think China needs to prepare to fight another WWII then I guess you're right. I think future conflicts will look very different.

Russia is still looking for funding with their 5th gen program, which is exactly what Sukhoi were depending on their China orders. Despite that, KnAAPO filed suit in order to get the money from those orders to upgrade their plants instead. The Chinese have been funding and working on their fifth gen project for years now. When you compare their air force to Russia's, you will find that far more of their aircraft are at least equipped with the more modern slotted array planar---a standard in Western air forces these days---that are capable of launching active guided BVRAAM. Even J-8IIs are getting upgraded to these, while the Su-27SM upgrades in the RuAF are basically adding modern electronics to an even older generation twist cassegrain design.
I absolutely agree with you that the state of the Russian airforce is atrocious. However funding for the PAK-FA seems to be doing fine for the time being. Two prototypes are in production right now. Flight testing of some of the engines and avionics is being done on the Su-35BM. I'm very hopeful that MDB will release the breakdown of the Russian defense budget for 2008 so we can see for ourselves what exactly happens.
 
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