Royal New Zealand Air Force

[ngatimozart]

Frankly, I don't think the pollies deserve this kind of luxury, if at all possible have them fly economy class, if their really serious about saving the govt money. Although Gerry Brownlee and a few others might need special seating.

That's why I made this comment here.

 

[40 deg south]

C-2 as a strategic airlifter because it isn't really designed to be a tactical airlifter and acquiring it would be a good geopolitical move. The C-130J as the tactical airlifter because of it's ability to lift a good sized load over a long range which is very important in the NZ context and is the reason why airlifters such as the C295 & C-27J don't cut the mustard in the NZ context.

Malaysian pilot details A400M missions, midair refueling experience

Airbus are still pushing the A400m hard, as this piece from Avalon shows. From a logistics point of view, it has a much larger confirmed production run (circa 170?) than the C-2 (30-40?) and is operated by one close partner of RNZAF (UK) and several allied nations (France, Malaysia etc). On the operational side, it is designed to have better rough-field capability than the C-2.

It should be a shoo-in for NZ except for two factors - price and reliability concerns.

Defence people believe the govt is closer to placing order for Hercules replacements

The Point of Order blog run by some semi-retired Wellington journos reckons a C-130J order is looming. It's worth noting that they don't claim any inside knowledge or expertise - rather this is the gossip thay are hearing around town. Interesting they note that funding pressures are emerging in Cabinet - until now there has been a sense that surpluses just keep rolling in and can be spent on any flavour-of-the-month bright idea.

Given the much-delayed Defence Capability Plan is due (again!) this month, hopefully we won't be kept in suspense for too much longer.

 

[Whiplash34]

As posted by 40 deg south next door in the RAAF thread...(sorry mate, rather than talk RNZAF in the RAAF thread, I posted your link here....)

Airbus targets special ops helicopter project - Australian Aviation

Interesting....I think there was talk of the NZDF being interested in an SF version of the NH90. As 40 deg south stated, I’d like to know what the specific differences are between the TTH version and the SF version.

On a side note, is there a particular reason why our (NZ) NH90s aren’t painted in camo? I mean, I understand why fixed wing / high altitude aircraft wear boring grey (tongue in cheek boys, tongue in cheek...!) as it is actually reputed to be the best ‘camo’ for anything flying with decent altitude.

I like the Finnish camo pattern myself....

 

[Whiplash34]

Malaysian pilot details A400M missions, midair refueling experience

Airbus are still pushing the A400m hard, as this piece from Avalon shows. From a logistics point of view, it has a much larger confirmed production run (circa 170?) than the C-2 (30-40?) and is operated by one close partner of RNZAF (UK) and several allied nations (France, Malaysia etc). On the operational side, it is designed to have better rough-field capability than the C-2.

It should be a shoo-in for NZ except for two factors - price and reliability concerns.

Defence people believe the govt is closer to placing order for Hercules replacements

The Point of Order blog run by some semi-retired Wellington journos reckons a C-130J order is looming. It's worth noting that they don't claim any inside knowledge or expertise - rather this is the gossip thay are hearing around town. Interesting they note that funding pressures are emerging in Cabinet - until now there has been a sense that surpluses just keep rolling in and can be spent on any flavour-of-the-month bright idea.

Given the much-delayed Defence Capability Plan is due (again!) this month, hopefully we won't be kept in suspense for too much longer.

I saw the well thought out comment at the bottom of the Point of Order blog post linked above....good one ngati...!!!

 

[Whiplash34]

Malaysian pilot details A400M missions, midair refueling experience

Airbus are still pushing the A400m hard, as this piece from Avalon shows. From a logistics point of view, it has a much larger confirmed production run (circa 170?) than the C-2 (30-40?) and is operated by one close partner of RNZAF (UK) and several allied nations (France, Malaysia etc). On the operational side, it is designed to have better rough-field capability than the C-2.

It should be a shoo-in for NZ except for two factors - price and reliability concerns.

IMHO, the most suscinct summing up of the A400M vs C130J discussion has been by ngatimozart, as follows:

“When you compare the A400M to the C-130J on costs alone the C-130J wins hands down, but on all other metrics, even on its ground pressure footprint, it runs a poor second.”

I love the C-130J and if we get it I’ll be OK with it, I’ve also previously described it as the “Gold Standard” in tactical lift but......I’d love to see us folk out a bit extra and go with the A400M for our tactical lift solution. I think in the long term, it’s actually way more bang (capability) for our buck.

I know it hinges on a robust on-going maintenance schedule but that strikes me as something we (RNZAF) have historically been great at (i.e. I understand that globally our NH90s have the best availablilty rates, our C-130H’s have been exceptionally well looked after that they’ve been around 50 year).[/QUOTE]

 

[ngatimozart]

On a side note, is there a particular why our (NZ) NH90s aren’t painted in camo? I mean, I understand why fixed wing / high altitude aircraft wear boring grey (tongue in cheek boys, tongue in cheek...!) as it is actually reputed to be the best ‘camo’ for anything flying with decent altitude.

I read once that when the RNZAF Skyhawks were painted green they were very hard to see, especially when they were low down in the weeds hiding amongst the rabbit holes waiting for F-18s and other game to pass overhead, before rising up and smoking them.

 

[Novascotiaboy]

Defence assets are always a difficult commodity for politicians to allocate funds for in the face of political points but this typically applies to offensive assets. For as much as I try to read on defence matters in New Zealand I didn’t see any reports of mass gatherings opposing the purchase decision of the P8s last Summer.

The replacement of the Hercules should not encounter any opposition from any political entity left, right, centre or whack job.

What this will come down to IMHO is what can do the job at the least overall cost. As a purely tactical aircraft there is no need to carry a LAV or an NH90. Those requirements are strategic in nature and the only two contenders are the A400 and the C2.

The delivery timeline of 2022 virtually guarantees a C130J purchase. The question is model, features and numbers. We have discussed KC tanker variant, SOF variant, and J30 variant. All have their benefits to RNZAF. Finding the mix that supports as many operations as possible is the challenge.

Once this is decided the strategic component is C2 vs A400. By 2025 the C2 production line will be perfectly placed for delivery to the RNZAF. By then the aircraft will be very mature and as we all know the Japanese will be positioned to provide the supply chain needed to support these aircraft. With its super size cargo bay it has the capability to lift anything NZ may have now or into the future.

The A400 I fear will become a maintenance challenge as time passes. It’s not a bad aircraft but it’s unique features make it an engineering nightmare for a country so far from its centre of operations in Europe.

C130J is the lowest risk and likely the lowest cost option. A one for one replacement with J30 models along with the SOF improvements would enhance current operations significantly I think we can all agree.

In six years time a purchase of three C2 would allow the NZG to service Antarctica, support NZDF operations worldwide and deliver HADR supplies where and when needed.

Two half billion dollar purchases. No big deal. It’s just money. But the purchase of these aircraft bring capability that the current fleet could never even contemplate. It’s March now so the time is ticking for the release of the DCP and the direction that it provides.

Only good things can come. The numbers now are too few. They can’t get any lower.

 

[beegee]

Defence people believe the govt is closer to placing order for Hercules replacements

This is my favourite quote from the article:

Most commentaries overlook the essential requirements of a small air force, which is to minimise the risk of new equipment, or that with a limited production run, and secondly, to limit the number of types in service.

Amen, brother.

 

[Gibbo]

Defence assets are always a difficult commodity for politicians to allocate funds for in the face of political points but this typically applies to offensive assets. For as much as I try to read on defence matters in New Zealand I didn’t see any reports of mass gatherings opposing the purchase decision of the P8s last Summer.

The replacement of the Hercules should not encounter any opposition from any political entity left, right, centre or whack job.

What this will come down to IMHO is what can do the job at the least overall cost. As a purely tactical aircraft there is no need to carry a LAV or an NH90. Those requirements are strategic in nature and the only two contenders are the A400 and the C2.

The delivery timeline of 2022 virtually guarantees a C130J purchase. The question is model, features and numbers. We have discussed KC tanker variant, SOF variant, and J30 variant. All have their benefits to RNZAF. Finding the mix that supports as many operations as possible is the challenge.

Once this is decided the strategic component is C2 vs A400. By 2025 the C2 production line will be perfectly placed for delivery to the RNZAF. By then the aircraft will be very mature and as we all know the Japanese will be positioned to provide the supply chain needed to support these aircraft. With its super size cargo bay it has the capability to lift anything NZ may have now or into the future.

The A400 I fear will become a maintenance challenge as time passes. It’s not a bad aircraft but it’s unique features make it an engineering nightmare for a country so far from its centre of operations in Europe.

C130J is the lowest risk and likely the lowest cost option. A one for one replacement with J30 models along with the SOF improvements would enhance current operations significantly I think we can all agree.

In six years time a purchase of three C2 would allow the NZG to service Antarctica, support NZDF operations worldwide and deliver HADR supplies where and when needed.

Two half billion dollar purchases. No big deal. It’s just money. But the purchase of these aircraft bring capability that the current fleet could never even contemplate. It’s March now so the time is ticking for the release of the DCP and the direction that it provides.

Only good things can come. The numbers now are too few. They can’t get any lower.

Yep IMHO you've pretty much hit the nail on the head.... this will almost certainly be the way it pans out for the tactical FAMC component... C130J-30 and for all the reasoning you explain above. As for numbers, it'll most likely be 5 although I'd be chuffed if they could even add a 6th. Whether it's the SOF version I'm not certain... can't guarantee a tanker capability will be included.

The strategic component and numbers thereof are less clear but that is, as you say, for another time. Good post!

 

[beegee]

I'm not sure if this has been posted before, but it's a great history of the Skyhawk in RNZAF service by Don Simms, including the infamous F-16 deal.

 

[Whiplash34]

I'm not sure if this has been posted before, but it's a great history of the Skyhawk in RNZAF service by Don Simms, including the infamous F-16 deal.

Watched this just a couple of days ago from the WONZ forum. What a great insight listening to Don discuss the history of the A4K’s....and hearing it from someone who has first hand knowledge. Didn’t realise what a great deal we got from the Aussies when we picked up their A4’s following disbandment of their RAN squadron.

Which lead me to watching this classic 60 Minutes ‘news’ story on the YouTube....funny watching the interviewer give it to the then Minister of Defense Beazley near the end (who came off looking like a bit of a tosser really)....you’ll have to try and get over the delayed / mismatch of the sound vs the images though...

Here’s the link:

 

[old faithful]

Great video of the A4 History.
For the life of me, I will never understand why Clark turned down the F16 offer. It was clearly a gift to NZ, maybe there was a behind the scenes obligation to support US operations in the future?

 

[ngatimozart]

Great video of the A4 History.
For the life of me, I will never understand why Clark turned down the F16 offer. It was clearly a gift to NZ, maybe there was a behind the scenes obligation to support US operations in the future?

Uncle Helun Clark was / is a left winger who is anti US anti Vietnam war protester and had protested against the Skyhawks right from the beginning. When the F-16 deal was announced, Clark railed against it and as soon as elected as PM scrapped the deal regardless of the cost to NZ, then abolished the ACF which was the plan all along, and at same time ran an anti US and anti Australian foreign policy.

 

[MrConservative]

It was clearly a gift to NZ, maybe there was a behind the scenes obligation to support US operations in the future?

There was no obligation other than a reaching out by the then Clinton administration to repair a strain post ANZUS defence relationship.

 

[kiwipatriot69]

I was wondering if the grounding world wide of 737 max will affect the P8 Poseidon, wasnt it based off the 737 max, or am i wrong?

 

[Oberon]

B

I was wondering if the grounding world wide of 737 max will affect the P8 Poseidon, wasnt it based off the 737 max, or am i wrong?

Based on the Boeing 737-800.

 

[Whiplash34]

I was wondering if the grounding world wide of 737 max will affect the P8 Poseidon, wasnt it based off the 737 max, or am i wrong?

I don’t think it does mate - from what I’ve read elsewhere. The P8 Poseidon is based off the 737-800 ERX which is different to the MAX as I understand it.

In saying that, there has been discussions around the crashes maybe being related to a software issue...whether the 737-800ERX and MAX use the same software....I am not knowledgeable in this area so I don’t want to say much else.

 

[Todjaeger]

I was wondering if the grounding world wide of 737 max will affect the P8 Poseidon, wasnt it based off the 737 max, or am i wrong?

As others have mentioned the P-8 Poseidon was not based off the B737 MAX series, but rather elements of the B737-800 with a few elements from the B737-900 as well. The B737 MAX-series is (or was...) intended as the follow-on generation to the B737 Next Gen which were the B737-700/800/900 series jets.

The issues with the civilian B737 MAX aircraft have likely stalled any military developments intended for the B737 MAX, at least for now. However, that should not impact current military aircraft based upon older B737 aircraft generations like the C-40 Clipper, E-737/E-7 Wedgetail, or the P-8 Poseidon.

 

[ngatimozart]

Video of a RNZAF NH90 being loaded into a RAAF C-17. The NH90 is one of two off to the Solomon Islands to support the upcoming elections there. From the video it appears that the main and tail rotors along with the rear horizontal stabiliser are removed and the tail folded. The previous govt should've taken a concrete pill, hardened up and bought two of the C-17 white tails when they had the chance. Numb nuts.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=266801174242096

 

[kiwipatriot69]

Video of a RNZAF NH90 being loaded into a RAAF C-17. The NH90 is one of two off to the Solomon Islands to support the upcoming elections there. From the video it appears that the main and tail rotors along with the rear horizontal stabiliser are removed and the tail folded. The previous govt should've taken a concrete pill, hardened up and bought two of the C-17 white tails when they had the chance. Numb nuts.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=266801174242096