Royal New Zealand Air Force

[kiwipatriot69]

Not just for foreign medivac roles, given the number of casualties here in Christchurch with the terror attacks I think a few extra here in Nz would be fully utilised. We were lucky this happened so close to a major hospital, and numbers were manageable by A+E operating theatres. What if that wasn't the case, in a scenario where every minute counts, damaged hospital from an earthquake too could be a likely scenario, with blocked or damaged roads?

 

[t68]

Not just for foreign medivac roles, given the number of casualties here in Christchurch with the terror attacks I think a few extra here in Nz would be fully utilised. We were lucky this happened so close to a major hospital, and numbers were manageable by A+E operating theatres. What if that wasn't the case, in a scenario where every minute counts, damaged hospital from an earthquake too could be a likely scenario, with blocked or damaged roads?

Access I can understand, but if the infrastructure was damaged like in the above scenario, it would require field hospitals to be set up otherwise where are the AME helicopters going to go.

Does NZ have the equivalent to Care Flight or the RFDS?

Medical Emergency & Rescue Services - CareFlight

What does the RFDS do? | Royal Flying Doctor Service

 

[MrConservative]

Access I can understand, but if the infrastructure was damaged like in the above scenario, it would require field hospitals to be set up otherwise where are the AME helicopters going to go.

Does NZ have the equivalent to Care Flight or the RFDS?

Medical Emergency & Rescue Services - CareFlight

What does the RFDS do? | Royal Flying Doctor Service

In terms of fixed wing the New Zealand Air Ambulance Service fly a couple of KA200's, a Citation Mustang and a 400XT jet. Lifeflight uses Jet Stream 32's.

 

[RegR]

Access I can understand, but if the infrastructure was damaged like in the above scenario, it would require field hospitals to be set up otherwise where are the AME helicopters going to go.

Does NZ have the equivalent to Care Flight or the RFDS?

Medical Emergency & Rescue Services - CareFlight

What does the RFDS do? | Royal Flying Doctor Service

Yip, checkout 111 emergency page, has pics, locales of all our emergency services. We actually have quite a few rescue helicopter services along with lifeflights and apparently per capita one of the largest helo "fleets" in the world. Guess it helps with much of our rugged geography.

 

[KiwiRob]

Yip, checkout 111 emergency page, has pics, locales of all our emergency services. We actually have quite a few rescue helicopter services along with lifeflights and apparently per capita one of the largest helo "fleets" in the world. Guess it helps with much of our rugged geography.

And for the life of me I can't understand why all those emergency helicopter services aren't rolled into one national service operated by the govt with a standardised fleet of aircraft. At the moment all the various services have differing capabilities depending upon what they operate and how good they are at scrounging for funds from the public and corporate sponsors.

 

[t68]

And for the life of me I can't understand why all those emergency helicopter services aren't rolled into one national service operated by the govt with a standardised fleet of aircraft. At the moment all the various services have differing capabilities depending upon what they operate and how good they are at scrounging for funds from the public and corporate sponsors.

Part in bold is your answer, doesn't cost the government anything except maybe at tax time, here in Australia they are classified as a charity and can be claimed back on tax

 

[MrConservative]

One of the risks in nationalising into government control is that the local buy in from members of the public and corporates will likely disappear. Each regions people, major funding charities and businesses have a kind of ownership of their local charitable air rescue services. For Westpac it is also probably their best brand association in a PR sense.

There is also the very real risk that some local smaller sized services could be rationalised if they were nationalised such as was attempted last year by Minister David Clark and have services based in the major cities with a centralised funding model. Places like Taupo, the East Coast, Southland and the Coromandel were on the chopping block. Also what came out of the final review was that a one size fits all helicopter was not the best solution. The Taupo and East Coast services argued that the smaller AS-350's that some of operators use could get into tighter remote LZ's often in mountainous areas that larger AW-169's and Bell 222's could not do.

I am of the opinion that having a bunch of Wellington pencil pushers running the show wont make it better.

 

[KiwiRob]

A govt run service works pretty well in Norway, Norwegian Air Ambulance operates 12 King Air B200’s and a fleet 13 helicopters, a mix of A139’s and EC-135/145’s. There’s also the 12 Seakings operated by the airforce in a SAR capacity, these also operate as air ambulances. The Seakings are being replaced by 16 AW101’s.

 

[John Fedup]

The oil derived sovereign wealth investments would help make all this possible. Norway is a good example of how a nation should maximize its natural resources to fund national projects.

 

[MrConservative]

A govt run service works pretty well in Norway, Norwegian Air Ambulance operates 12 King Air B200’s and a fleet 13 helicopters, a mix of A139’s and EC-135/145’s. There’s also the 12 Seakings operated by the airforce in a SAR capacity, these also operate as air ambulances. The Seakings are being replaced by 16 AW101’s.

It also works really well here in NZ as it is and if the Govt wants to give more financial support to the trusts that operate here then great.

Since aero-medical services were first set up in NZ back in 1970 by the Auckland Surf Life Savers it has proudly operated as a Trust based community service. Having it as another arm of the state will stuff the exceptional organisational culture that exists. Not broke ... don't fix is my view. It is too important for the public for them to allow the Government to stuff up.

I just do not think a government controlled model is required from now on and following the public pushback last year the Government wont touch it for quite a while.

 

[Novascotiaboy]

Interesting comment on WONZ regarding former USCG MH68 Mako A109Es being in storage in the US and still being run up regularly. These aircraft only flew for six or seven years and would have lots of life in them. What a fantastic way of acquiring more aircraft of a type already in service for a deal that could help both parties.

There were originally eight aircraft and with a hoped for MLU of the existing RNZAF A/LUHs maybe these aircraft could be acquired.

 

[Rotorhead]

More 109s ??? They might be good for twin engine training but that’s about it. There is a reason there is only one commercially operated 109 in NZ.

It’s a shame NZ didn’t go a H135 - H145 combination for the training like the UK. The H145T2 Could be used for SAR & take a decent load unlike the 109.

US Army has 400 of the older model EC145c2 which replaced the Huey’s . This would be a cheaper option then more NH90s obviously less capacity but something NZ could afford.

 

[MrConservative]

More 109s ??? They might be good for twin engine training but that’s about it. There is a reason there is only one commercially operated 109 in NZ.

It’s a shame NZ didn’t go a H135 - H145 combination for the training like the UK. The H145T2 Could be used for SAR & take a decent load unlike the 109.

US Army has 400 of the older model EC145c2 which replaced the Huey’s . This would be a cheaper option then more NH90s obviously less capacity but something NZ could afford.

Good points!

The AW109 had wheels which was a preference in the LUH project because of the potential for deck landings. IIRC the ground effect hover at 13000 ft was another tick in the box (getting nutters who want to climb Mt Cook off safely no doubt) for the AW109. However they have seldom landed on the decks of RNZN vessels nor were they properly marinised.

It would be interesting to see if those ex US Army H-145's could be re-manufactured/refurbished ala our SH-2's (most of our ones started life in 1962 as an UH-2B's). Because their EDA value would be just a few hundy grand. Are they easily transportable by C130J is another question to investigate.

I have said for years that the NZDF need a cheap robust uncomplicated helicopter that can lift a reasonable load either internally or underslung (the AW109 is anaemic in that area compared to the H-145) as a supplement to the NH90/AW109 to do the cheap and dirty MAOT & HADR stuff whether haydrops to livestock snowed in, septic tanks to DOC huts locally or HADR/SASO tasks overseas per South Pacific - a kind of Toyota Hilux ute dogsbody to the LX570 Lexus (NH90) analogy.

 

[ngatimozart]

Good points!

The AW109 had wheels which was a preference in the LUH project because of the potential for deck landings. IIRC the ground effect hover at 13000 ft was another tick in the box (getting nutters who want to climb Mt Cook off safely no doubt) for the AW109. However they have seldom landed on the decks of RNZN vessels nor were they properly marinised.

It would be interesting to see if those ex US Army H-145's could be re-manufactured/refurbished ala our SH-2's (most of our ones started life in 1962 as an UH-2B's). Because their EDA value would be just a few hundy grand. Are they easily transportable by C130J is another question to investigate.

I have said for years that the NZDF need a cheap robust uncomplicated helicopter that can lift a reasonable load either internally or underslung (the AW109 is anaemic in that area compared to the H-145) as a supplement to the NH90/AW109 to do the cheap and dirty MAOT & HADR stuff whether haydrops to livestock snowed in, septic tanks to DOC huts locally or HADR/SASO tasks overseas per South Pacific - a kind of Toyota Hilux ute dogsbody to the LX570 Lexus (NH90) analogy.

Airbus are offering the H145M to the ADF Special Forces light helo, so maybe re-manufactured/refurbished ex US Army H-145's could be looked at for a similar role for 1NZSASR.

However if you want to use it "as a supplement to the NH90/AW109 to do the cheap and dirty MAOT & HADR stuff whether haydrops to livestock snowed in, septic tanks to DOC huts locally or HADR/SASO tasks overseas per South Pacific - a kind of Toyota Hilux ute dogsbody to the LX570 Lexus (NH90) analogy" I would suggest that it is under powered for that. However I would suggest that re-manufactured/refurbished ex US Army UH-60s would be ideal for such a role, especially if they were marinised. They have double the lifting capability (UH-60 4,000 kg under slung; (H145M / UH-72 1800 kg useful load) and have a 19,000 ft ceiling.

 

[Rotorhead]

Good points!

The AW109 had wheels which was a preference in the LUH project because of the potential for deck landings. IIRC the ground effect hover at 13000 ft was another tick in the box (getting nutters who want to climb Mt Cook off safely no doubt) for the AW109. However they have seldom landed on the decks of RNZN vessels nor were they properly marinised.

It would be interesting to see if those ex US Army H-145's could be re-manufactured/refurbished ala our SH-2's (most of our ones started life in 1962 as an UH-2B's). Because their EDA value would be just a few hundy grand. Are they easily transportable by C130J is another question to investigate.

I have said for years that the NZDF need a cheap robust uncomplicated helicopter that can lift a reasonable load either internally or underslung (the AW109 is anaemic in that area compared to the H-145) as a supplement to the NH90/AW109 to do the cheap and dirty MAOT & HADR stuff whether haydrops to livestock snowed in, septic tanks to DOC huts locally or HADR/SASO tasks overseas per South Pacific - a kind of Toyota Hilux ute dogsbody to the LX570 Lexus (NH90) analogy.

 

[Rotorhead]

Big difference between the Lakota & the H145t2 , now the new T3 has been released with five blades & higher gross weight which will make it even better.

 

[MrConservative]

Airbus are offering the H145M to the ADF Special Forces light helo, so maybe re-manufactured/refurbished ex US Army H-145's could be looked at for a similar role for 1NZSASR.

And it looks to be one of the contenders for the OZ Specials who want a new capability along with the Bell 407 and the AW109 Trekker. Anyone of those would be fine and the OZ selection process will inform us.

However if you want to use it "as a supplement to the NH90/AW109 to do the cheap and dirty MAOT & HADR stuff whether haydrops to livestock snowed in, septic tanks to DOC huts locally or HADR/SASO tasks overseas per South Pacific - a kind of Toyota Hilux ute dogsbody to the LX570 Lexus (NH90) analogy" I would suggest that it is under powered for that. However I would suggest that re-manufactured/refurbished ex US Army UH-60s would be ideal for such a role, especially if they were marinised. They have double the lifting capability (UH-60 4,000 kg under slung; (H145M / UH-72 1800 kg useful load) and have a 19,000 ft ceiling.

I have suggested remanufactured UH-60's in the past but also the Huey II which does have the benefit of being cheaper to own and operate.

 

[ngatimozart]

Big difference between the Lakota & the H145t2 , now the new T3 has been released with five blades & higher gross weight which will make it even better.

Yep, but not doubling the lift capacity.

When posting, try and put your replies on the appropriate post. Yep, I know using phones and tablets can be a pain - my wife, she who must be obeyed, gets to hear some blistering sailor type language if I am using a tablet of phone. I am forbidden to use such for posting on here when the grandkids are around.

 

[Novascotiaboy]

The discussion of adding types to the mix has been discussed and pundents always bring up the fact that the force and the budget is too small for multiple types. Although the 109e is what it is the ability to add to the fleet and place the five A/LUH in a dedicated army recce role while using the Makos as basic rotary and general utility aircraft has merits. Not ideal but it reduces the logistics tail.

Maybe the A/LUHs could be weaponized with 2.75” rocket pods and forward firing HMG to give top cover to NZA operation. Although a fanciful thought they are milspec and that is what a military is supposed to be able to do.

 

[ngatimozart]

The discussion of adding types to the mix has been discussed and pundents always bring up the fact that the force and the budget is too small for multiple types. Although the 109e is what it is the ability to add to the fleet and place the five A/LUH in a dedicated army recce role while using the Makos as basic rotary and general utility aircraft has merits. Not ideal but it reduces the logistics tail.

Maybe the A/LUHs could be weaponized with 2.75” rocket pods and forward firing HMG to give top cover to NZA operation. Although a fanciful thought they are milspec and that is what a military is supposed to be able to do.

Yep, but in this case we're kicking around ideas to try and increase utility helo numbers without breaking the bank that can take the pressure off the NH90s. The problem with the Mako is that it's good for arming as you suggest and other taskings such as looking out for paua (abalone) poachers, but it isn't great at lifting decent loads in the back country and mountains, VERTREPS at sea and nor is the H145. In an ideal world we'd acquire another four marinised NH-90s, one CKD for spares, fully marinise the eight we already have, 5 - 7 more armed, armoured and marinised Makos and replace the Seasprites with 10 -12 NH90 NFH starting around 2025. However we don't live in an ideal world, so we have to play with the cards that the dealer dealt to us.