Royal Canadian Navy Discussions and updates

[CorvetteCrunch]

Preserver is starting to take shape. Wish Canada would build a couple more.

I think the RCN should procure atleast 1 more JSS sometime in the future, along a similar line as the Germans did with the Berlin class. Berlin and Frankfurt am Main were laid down in 1999 and 2000 respectively, while Bonn was laid down a decade later in 2010 to a modified design. Seaspan is unable to immediately build another JSS due to other ongoing vital programs like the Arpatuuq class Polar Icebreaker and Multi-Purpose Vessels for the Canadian Coast Guard. Building a third JSS in the future (Provider?) to a further improved design would work to rectify any issues that will inevitably be found with the JSS design while working up and in service.

 

[shadow99]

Canadian Defence Review has a tour of HMCS Protecteur. Great to see progress, especially having the switchboards coming online in a few days.

 

[Sender]

Contract finally signed for the first Polar Icebreaker:

Seaspan awarded $3.15-billion contract for CCG's Polar Icebreaker

Seaspan awarded $3.15-billion contract by Canada for the construction of 1 of CCG’s polar icebreakers under the NSS.

canadiandefencereview.com

Presumably, like the RCN ships, includes a period of in-service support.

 

[John Fedup]

Contract finally signed for the first Polar Icebreaker:

Seaspan awarded $3.15-billion contract for CCG's Polar Icebreaker

Seaspan awarded $3.15-billion contract by Canada for the construction of 1 of CCG’s polar icebreakers under the NSS.

canadiandefencereview.com

Presumably, like the RCN ships, includes a period of in-service support.

For 3 billion plus, I would like to think there is some support included.

 

[Sender]

For 3 billion plus, I would like to think there is some support included.

Further to this, another government contract has been signed with Davie this time, for a second Polar Class ship, to be partially built in Finland:

Davie Awarded Major Contract by Canada to Build Polar Icebreaker

Lévis — Davie, the Québec-based international shipbuilder, today announced it has been awarded a contract by the Government of Canada for the construction of a needed polar icebreaker. This initiative will leverage Davie’s international presence, with work beginning in 2025, under a robust...

www.davie.ca

This seems to be a modified design, that Davie calls Polar Max E. Not a ton of detail, and just as eye-wateringly expensive, BUT it will be delivered 2 years earlier than the Seaspan ship (2030 vs 2032), presumably due to the availability of the capacity of the Helsinki yard. It was a good strategic move by Davie to purchase Helsinki Shipyard.

 

[Sender]

And in other news, the construction contract for the River Class has been signed. This is big news.

Government of Canada announces contract award for the construction of the River-class destroyers for the Royal Canadian Navy - Canada.ca

Today, the Honourable Bill Blair, Minister of National Defence, the Honourable Jean-Yves Duclos, Minister of Public Services and Procurement and Quebec Lieutenant, and the Honourable Darren Fisher, Minister of Veterans Affairs and Associate Minister of National Defence, announced the...

www.canada.ca

 

[John Fedup]

Further to this, another government contract has been signed with Davie this time, for a second Polar Class ship, to be partially built in Finland:

Davie Awarded Major Contract by Canada to Build Polar Icebreaker

Lévis — Davie, the Québec-based international shipbuilder, today announced it has been awarded a contract by the Government of Canada for the construction of a needed polar icebreaker. This initiative will leverage Davie’s international presence, with work beginning in 2025, under a robust...

www.davie.ca

This seems to be a modified design, that Davie calls Polar Max E. Not a ton of detail, and just as eye-wateringly expensive, BUT it will be delivered 2 years earlier than the Seaspan ship (2030 vs 2032), presumably due to the availability of the capacity of the Helsinki yard. It was a good strategic move by Davie to purchase Helsinki Shipyard.

Are there any significant design differences between the Seaspan and Davie heavies or is it too early to know?

 

[Sender]

Are there any significant design differences between the Seaspan and Davie heavies or is it too early to know?

The Davie design appears to be about 140m and 23000 tons, versus 158m and 26000 tons for the Seaspan design. They are both Polar Class 2, but the Seaspan appears to be a bit more strongly built as it has the + designation (PC 2+). It looks like the main difference is the Seaspan design has more scientific space, whereas the Davie is mostly pure icebreaker.

 

[MARKMILES77]

Is there any appetite for nuclear submarines in Canada?
Canada has a large nuclear power sector so I wouldn't have thought it would be as big a leap as it is for Australia.
France is demonstrating a Suffren Class submarine to the Canadians.

 

[John Fedup]

Is there any appetite for nuclear submarines in Canada?
Canada has a large nuclear power sector so I wouldn't have thought it would be as big a leap as it is for Australia.
France is demonstrating a Suffren Class submarine to the Canadians.

Not likely but 3 Suffrens for the Arctic and 6-9 SSKs for the Atlantic and Pacific coasts would be useful. Realistically, the RCN hopefully will get 6 plus SSKs.

 

[CorvetteCrunch]

Is there any appetite for nuclear submarines in Canada?
Canada has a large nuclear power sector so I wouldn't have thought it would be as big a leap as it is for Australia.
France is demonstrating a Suffren Class submarine to the Canadians.

There is realistically no appetite for nuclear submarines in Canada, given the immense difficulties in procuring the vessels, training the crews, setting up requisite infrastructure and maintaining them long term. Take a look at Australia to see just what kind of herculean efforts and financial perils this sort of program requires, it is very much something that the CAF as a whole cannot afford now, or into the future. Even if we could afford it, I would find it a dubiously responsible use of funds in the grand scheme of things.

Not likely but 3 Suffrens for the Arctic and 6-9 SSKs for the Atlantic and Pacific coasts would be useful. Realistically, the RCN hopefully will get 6 plus SSKs.

A mixed fleet would be a logistical and training nightmare, I would not recommend it in the slightest. There are very few nations throughout the world who operate a mixed propulsion submarine fleet, and for very good reason. Considering the size, range, ability to resupply and the littoral chokepoints one can utilize, I view SSK's as entirely adequate for our uses in the North as well.

 

[John Fedup]

There is realistically no appetite for nuclear submarines in Canada, given the immense difficulties in procuring the vessels, training the crews, setting up requisite infrastructure and maintaining them long term. Take a look at Australia to see just what kind of herculean efforts and financial perils this sort of program requires, it is very much something that the CAF as a whole cannot afford now, or into the future. Even if we could afford it, I would find it a dubiously responsible use of funds in the grand scheme of things.



A mixed fleet would be a logistical and training nightmare, I would not recommend it in the slightest. There are very few nations throughout the world who operate a mixed propulsion submarine fleet, and for very good reason. Considering the size, range, ability to resupply and the littoral chokepoints one can utilize, I view SSK's as entirely adequate for our uses in the North as well.

There are more SSN navies operating both types. Only the US and UK are exclusively SSN, Russia, China, and India operate both. At some point, so will Brazil. Canada has more nuclear infrastructure than Australia. None of this matters though, SSNs aren't happening and with the possibility of the Liberals winning the next election, SSKs might not be either.

 

[swerve]

There are more SSN navies operating both types. Only the US and UK are exclusively SSN, Russia, China, and India operate both. At some point, so will Brazil. Canada has more nuclear infrastructure than Australia. None of this matters though, SSNs aren't happening and with the possibility of the Liberals winning the next election, SSKs might not be either.

And France. Suffren is replacing Rubis - also an SSN.

 

[Vivendi]

given the current international development Canada should urgently move to increase defense spending to 5% of GDP. Not sure if that is sufficient to get some French Nuclear subs? If they can accept to operate and maintain in close collaboration with the French it should lower the costs significantly.

 

[CorvetteCrunch]

given the current international development Canada should urgently move to increase defense spending to 5% of GDP. Not sure if that is sufficient to get some French Nuclear subs? If they can accept to operate and maintain in close collaboration with the French it should lower the costs significantly.

Canada will likely never reach a figure like 5% of GDP on defence unless we are embroiled in a direct war with another near peer or peer enemy.

 

[John Fedup]

given the current international development Canada should urgently move to increase defense spending to 5% of GDP. Not sure if that is sufficient to get some French Nuclear subs? If they can accept to operate and maintain in close collaboration with the French it should lower the costs significantly.

Given all the other kit that needs replacement along with better housing for members, probably not enough for French SSNs or 12 SSKs.

 

[John Fedup]

Here is a good idea for a future upgrade of the Harry DeWolf class, get some decent weapons.

Increased focus on combat capabilities for new Danish patrol ships - Naval News

 

[Vivendi]

Canada will likely never reach a figure like 5% of GDP on defence unless we are embroiled in a direct war with another near peer or peer enemy.

Historically small and medium sized countries in a major war with a near peer or peer have used much more than 5%... 5% is what you use when you realize that there is a major threat. Look at the Baltics.

 

[CorvetteCrunch]

Here is a good idea for a future upgrade of the Harry DeWolf class, get some decent weapons.

Increased focus on combat capabilities for new Danish patrol ships - Naval News

I wouldn't expect to see huge upgrades to the combat capability of the Harry DeWolf class, such changes are going to be difficult and not especially useful. The vessels were not designed to take such armaments, as it is fundamentally wasteful for the vast majority of their roles, alongside the fact an icebreaker is simply not a good combatant platform. You might see some changes to implement some minimally invasive anti-drone systems but otherwise, I wouldn't expect this to change.

As far as any future replacements, I can't really see this sort of requirement changing either.

 

[John Fedup]

I wouldn't expect to see huge upgrades to the combat capability of the Harry DeWolf class, such changes are going to be difficult and not especially useful. The vessels were not designed to take such armaments, as it is fundamentally wasteful for the vast majority of their roles, alongside the fact an icebreaker is simply not a good combatant platform. You might see some changes to implement some minimally invasive anti-drone systems but otherwise, I wouldn't expect this to change.

As far as any future replacements, I can't really see this sort of requirement changing either.

Probably not but something better than a 25 mm gun for a vessel worth several hundred million seems prudent.