Royal Australian Naval Force Enhancements

EnigmaNZ

New Member
Re: Royal Australian Navy force enhancements

knightrider4 said:
A ship fitted for but not with is simply a liability. I would like to see the ANZACS optioned up to fire SM-2 with the appropriate radar and FC facilities as per the original WIP. Naval warfare is by nature a rather high tech affair having substandard platforms simply keeps the undertakers happy.
Personally I would fit the full 16 cell VLS that the ANZAC was designed for holding ESSM quadpacks, thats 64 SM-1 like missiles, the ESSM vastly outranges the older seasparrow. Harpoon Bk 2 x 2 quad launchers in their original position on the superstructure, RAM on the raised area in front of the bridge with the lastest block Phalynx on the hanger, add the 127 mm plus the torps and the helo, a couple of bushmasters and 50 cals, plus the electronic upgrades including a 2nd director equals a nice multirole frigate. If the extra 8 cells were to hold 8 SM-2's, seems a look of effort for 8 missiles. The hanger too looks wide enough to have held 2 helos if the door was moved a meter to the starboard side and another hanger door fitted to port. Topside weight though, have much can the ANZAC handle additional.
The Adelaide upgrade is impressive, 32 odd SM-2's and 8 odd Harpoons Bk 2's, 32 ESSM's from the new 8 cell VLS, the 76mm, torps, 2 helos, persoanlly I would have a RAM on the hanger, 2 Phalynx with 1 to each side of the superstructure, 2 25mm Bushmasters, 50 cals, electronic upgrade with a second director a must have with the current blindspot, etc, again a good platform, I know the Adelaide will be reaching it's topside weight limit though. I really think western ships are light in the BPDS and CIWS fitouts, particulary with the new supersonic cruise missiles coming into service with various navies. A billion + dollar ship with 1 or 2 phalynx seems almost criminal.
Platforms fitted for but not with are the way the navy gets hull numbers past the electorate, then quitely upgrades several years down the track to what was wanted all along
 

Supe

New Member
Re: Royal Australian Navy force enhancements

EnigmaNZ said:
A billion + dollar ship with 1 or 2 phalynx seems almost criminal.
Amen. I'm also concerned about the lack of protection on RAN amphib ships. 1 x Phalanx and .50 cal mounts on the old Newports is paltry. I hope the gov isn't skimpy on the LHD's CIWS (guns/missile) defence.

Platforms fitted for but not with are the way the navy gets hull numbers past the electorate, then quitely upgrades several years down the track to what was wanted all along
heh. The electorate remains largely ignorant when it comes to Defence. Most folks understand the need for it, but their eyes glaze over any particular acquisition programme, unless of course it is or is perceived to be a lemon.

There's been a change in how the Government views defence, which is largely driving some of the interest in looking at improving current capabilities. The Gov no longer views Defence's sole province as DOA. I think Senator Hill calls it DOA-I (Defence of Australia and Interests). The current Gov really needs to get Labor on board because when the day comes and there is a change of government, there is a possibility Labor will revert to the old doctrine. The Gov really needs to make its case to the public and Opposition if they want their Defence policies to endure.

If/when they get back in power I can see Labor cutting Defence back to the bone if they can't see the validity of the current Gov's argument.
 

Supe

New Member
Re: Royal Australian Navy force enhancements

Ok, found the article I had in mind on doctrine shift. I'm not going to clutter up my previous post with this cut and paste but it's valid in the context of how the Gov see's Australian Defence policy as evolving:

The Australian

Contract worthy of defence

June 04, 2005

WITH the award of the $6 billion contract to build three air warfare destroyers to Adelaide's ASC Pty Ltd, the Howard Government has taken a big step in its methodical, deliberate transformation of the Australian Defence Force and its underpinning strategic doctrine.

This is a huge process, little understood because so many of the commentators are wedded to the old paradigm. They either pretend that nothing much has changed or they scold the Government for departing from orthodox practice.

Prime Minister John Howard, his Defence Minister Robert Hill and Foreign Minister Alexander Downer are the three key cabinet ministers driving strategic policy.

Three very different men, each is a globalist who rejects the "little Australia" outlook and sees the US-Australia partnership as a global alliance, with Australia having global interests.

The AWDs will be big, powerful ships. They will have Aegis missile defence systems and will protect troops or naval battle groups from air or missile attack.

Hill, in an interview with The Weekend Australian, is robust on their strategic rationale: "The AWD is about the safety of deployed personnel. It gives us the capability of deploying a force more safely than we can now. Given the rapidly advancing air power in the region and elsewhere, it's essential.

"We have a small amphibious capability now. We're planning to [increase] that considerably. If you're sending off a ship with 1000 soldiers on board, you want to have all threats covered. Even with air-to-air refuelling it's very difficult to have 24-hour-a-day coverage by your air force. The AWDs can also protect troops on land."

It is easy to imagine scenarios in our region where Australia may need to deploy troops and may want to make sure it has cover for them. But the AWDs are big, tough, leading edge technology. They will be the most complex pieces of machinery constructed in Australia. They will also give us a capability to deploy further afield.

The Government is also planning to acquire two huge amphibious ships, each of them twice the size of many European aircraft carriers.

At the same time, Hill told me that the extension for a further three years of Peter Leahy as Chief of Army is an endorsement of Leahy's "hardening and networking" plans for the army. "General Leahy is very committed to those outcomes and the Government supports him on that," Hill says. "For the past few years we've been trying to strengthen the army. It had been treated as a second fiddle. [Previous governments] had been funding the navy and air force but expecting the army to do the bulk of the work.

"After the Cold War many armies wanted to get lighter and more mobile. People were thinking of Europe's armies. The threats to soldiers were becoming greater, so to protect your army you actually need more. From our point of view we needed a slightly heavier army. We needed to harden the army, that's why we bought the tanks. We weren't thinking of tank battles of the past."

Hill and his department are working on a cabinet submission on the future of the army. It is already planned to expand it by a further 1100 personnel during the next five years and the cabinet submission will likely canvass ongoing growth in its size.

In my view it will still be too small, but it's certainly moving in the right direction. Add 100 Joint Strike Fighters to the equipment and personnel outlined above and the ADF will be a small but highly formidable and deployable force. The ability of our political system to take decisions quickly and the relevant capabilities in the ADF mean that Australia will be able to help, to make a meaningful contribution, in anything from a tsunami-style humanitarian crisis and traditional peacekeeping to aid to the civil power in a collapsing state or plain war fighting.

I asked Hill to clear up definitively where he stands on the great theological debate between Defence of Australia doctrine, which holds that the ADF should be configured narrowly for the continental defence of Australia v a more global view of our responsibilities and interests.

"I don't ever say Defence of Australia these days but Defence of Australia and Australia's interests," he says.

That would be a very useful new name for present doctrine. Abolish DOA and replace it with DOAAI (perhaps pronounced doe-ai).
Hill has his staff working on a new defence update, to be published later this year. It would do an enormous service to clarity in the debate, and would help those in the bureaucracy who want to implement rather than frustrate the Government's policy, to have DOAAI become the new official doctrine.

Hill says his policy is not the DOA of "[Paul] Dibb and [Hugh] White".

"It's not the DOA they developed, based on defending Australia behind the moat [to our north] etc," he says. "That's why they oppose the AWDs, because you wouldn't deploy."

In defence of Australia's interests, Hill says the Government decided to deploy in Afghanistan (far away), Iraq (far away) and Solomon Islands (nearby). The Government wants to have the options to make those decisions.

The old DOA doctrine did enormous harm to the ADF because it was configured to do the one thing it would never be called on to do and stripped of the capabilities it needed for the things it had to do. When there was a coup in Fiji, then cabinet ministers Kim Beazley and Gareth Evans wanted to explore the options of military action to restore the constitutional government. But there were no options because Australia had no relevant equipment.

The army was denuded. The Special Air Service was reduced to the idiotic role of counting trucks on roads in the Kimberley because that was where the mythical invaders of Australia were presumed to be most likely to act. Crazy, I know, but there you go.

More seriously, the SAS had trouble getting resources even for language training because it was thought that it would never deploy overseas. Now, language skills are an essential component of the SAS. In terms of securing resources, making the right equipment decisions and getting high-quality performance from the ADF, Hill has been a highly successful Defence Minister. He could now do both his Government and the ADF a further favour by having official doctrine catch up to government policy.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Re: Royal Australian Navy force enhancements

Supe said:
If/when they get back in power I can see Labor cutting Defence back to the bone if they can't see the validity of the current Gov's argument.
Cosgrove made Beasley look an idiot WRT his comments about suitability of the the Abrams - but you can bet London to a Brick that Lab would nuke the Abrams, AWD's, forthcoming JASSM and then convert half the navy into a coastguard service.

:mad:
 

Supe

New Member
Re: Royal Australian Navy force enhancements

Abrams will be in-service by then (assuming Labor wins next election scenario) and signifcant Defence dollars would have already gone towards the AWD's. The debate really has to move from the partisan to bipartisan view on Defence. That's not to say they will agree with everything but Labor has to understand that times have changed since Dibbs's white paper. ( I'm guessing that's what Labor based its policy of the day on)

I agree with the Government's position that our Defence forces can be tasked with other duties outside of DOA. Not that I always agree where they deploy the ADF, and Howard didn't help keeping the region soothed with his 'deputy' gaffe. I cringed when I heard that on the news.
 
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nz enthusiast

New Member
Re: Royal Australian Navy force enhancements

There are none confirmed at this stage jason_kiwi. However in the defence reviews done since the anzacs came into service they all say that the nz anzacs need weapons upgrading and that doing the upgrades with Australia is recommended. Its one of two areas where the nz governement are saying they won't do anything (the other being fire support vehicle).
 

nz enthusiast

New Member
Re: Royal Australian Navy force enhancements

No, the lav is the troop transport or APC vehicle. Fire support can be described as a form of mobile artillery or even medium tank by some. We used to have scorpions up until 1998, when they were retired the government said they would replace them but nothing has happened. Defence reviews say the are needed. If you look at the number of lavs compared to the number of M113s and scorpions we used have, you realise it is about the same (around 100).
 

Jason_kiwi

New Member
Re: Royal Australian Navy force enhancements

I think instead of the lavs they should have purchased warriors(the UK use them) They are a tracked vehicle armed pretty much like the LAV's. If national gets into power I think they will replace the LAV's.
 

nz enthusiast

New Member
Re: Royal Australian Navy force enhancements

I seriously doubt it, it would cost the government possibly hundreds of millions of dollars to break away from the contract and then they would have to cough up more money for a new vehicle.
Rumours (Only rumours), have it that the NZ army actually wanted the British Warrior vehicle or the US Bradley but the government wouldn't buy it becuase it would mean increased maintaince costs. The army wanted the bradley so they could have the surface to air missile ability and therefore less need for the other anti air equipment they have. The would have wanted the British warrior because it is a proven vehicle just like the bradley (bradleys are said to be very strong when team up with abrams).
The army is actually trying to prepare for this new era of mobility warfare, but mobility warfare relys on air strike, fire support vehicles and missile support, none of which NZ has.
 

Jason_kiwi

New Member
Re: Royal Australian Navy force enhancements

They do have mistril, Javilin and precision strike equipment. If national gets in they will have an air strike force(well thats what they are saying anyway). I think the Warrior would be ideal.Rapier would be good.

For the army I would purchase
around 100 warriors
30 rapier systems

Navy: after PP ships

2 new frigates to enhance the force to 4
another 170m MRV
new tanker,mine/diving and survey all armed with 1 25mm cannon and 50 cal mgs

Air Force

30 multi role fighters
30 light/training fighters, probably hawks
10 new Hercs
15 Tiger attack helis
 
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nz enthusiast

New Member
Re: Royal Australian Navy force enhancements

javelin is a anti tank weapon, although it is needed in mobility warfare, it is not in that strike category in my opinion.
Mistril is anti air, not a precsion strike weapon and is really for your own defence, but once again needed in mobility warfare.
there is no precision strike in the NZ armed services, unless you want to count 105mm howitizer and the main guns on the frigates.
It says all over defence reviews 'new zealand needs precision strike for the army, it can be in the following forms...'.

i had a very quick vague estimate on the stuff you want to buy, it will be at least 10 bil from what i can see. Why so expenisve? because your adding in new capabilities, which are always expensive to have. Your going to have to be a bit more reasonable at what you want. There is no way we can afford to maintain that sort of capability without offending the greenies and even genuine NZ. Also for what you want to do your going ot have to find a few thousand people which at this stage do not seem to exist.

My more reasonable list:
Keep the lavs, but look at the possibly of lowering there numbers due to lack of main power (possibly lower to sixty). Consider fire support vehicles if man power is available.
Upgrade thw two frigates slowly, get new torpedos now, new weapons for seaprite, look at surface to surface missile. Keep project protector going. Look at extra weapons for these ships if structure allows. Begin investigation into new tanker and survey vessel.
Keep c-130 and P-3 upgrade projects going and countinue plans for NH-90 (around 14 to 16 would be reasonable). Countinue tender into replacement for sioux (what is availble BTW and what does Austrlia use). Look at the role of attack helis (maybe only 6-12 of these). Begin looking for c-130 and p-3 replace with the possibly of investing in P-8 and A-400m projects.
 
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A

Aussie Digger

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Re: Royal Australian Navy force enhancements

Supe said:
How does the Navy determine the number of surface combatants required and is the RAN happy with current and future fleet numbers? I've said before that our surface fleet appears light given the amount of ocean/seas it has to cover but then I don't profess to be well informed as to what current RAN doctrine is.

After the last few weeks of reading various forums and articles, the idea that predominately prevails is that Australia seeks a 'qualitative' advantage in lieu of a quantitative one. That's all fine and dandy, but I feel there is also advantage in numbers (possible attrition), ability to project force in multiple areas and deterent value.

I've seen proposals from folks who think the RAN should have more 'hull's but fitted only with the bare minimum. The idea being that the money saved on weapons suites could be put into more ships. In case of hostilties they could be fitted out with the required weaponary. I suppose it is based on the assumption they'll be a period of time in which ships can be 'uparmed'. Some ships of the class would have the full fitout for training and acclimatisation purposes and crews would be rotated through them.

Edit: Unrelated to my post but relevant to thread.

http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/1650/vastergotland121mc.jpg

Interesting scan of article featured on Asia Pacific Defence Reporter posted on other forum. Egads, Singapore is a mini-superpower.
I think the RAN would be happy with 11-12 frigates plus the AWD's. Even Britain only has a major surface combatant force of 21. A force of 14-15 high quality major surface combatants would make Australia a relatively "big" player on the World scene, not just the Asia-Pacific region. Particularly if the "mini-carriers" come about as hoped.

An Australia Naval task force of an AWD, 2-3 frigates a sub or 2 and a mini carrier with 12+ JSF's, plus a refueller/underway replenishment ship would be a VERY substantial contribution to any force for a Country with the population size of ours...

Btw the way Rear Admiral Barrie made an interesting comment about the size of our major surface fleet just a few weeks ago. Even at just 12 Frigates, our fleet is STILL bigger now than it has been ever since WW2... (I don't have a link for that, but I assure everyone he said it).

And you're right. Singapore has an awesome armed forces for it's size and far exceeds the capabilities of it's neighbours...
 

Supe

New Member
Re: Royal Australian Navy force enhancements

Singapore does have legitimate concerns validating their Defence purchases. They spend quite a bit on Defence (GDP wise) but I think it's part of an upgrading process they are currently going through. If you check what sort of gear they have at their disposal, it's pretty damn impressive. They can also count a few Apache's in their helo fleet.

Then of course there's the Malaysians, who've bought themselves the Astros rocket system (strategic value), Vietnam is attempting to modernise their forces.... South East Asia is having a mini arms race. It's something Australian Defence planners must factor in. Fortunately, apart from some law and order issues, our immediate region is relatively benign.

Particularly if the "mini-carriers" come about as hoped.
I'd like to be wrong but I don't see it happening. I expect RAN to get a few more helo's but I don't they should hope for or count on receiving fixed wing aircraft. That said, the SPS should be built with a possible fixed wing complement in mind. An amphibious ship capable of operating a few helo's simultaneously will make for quite a potent force.
 
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A

Aussie Digger

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Re: Royal Australian Navy force enhancements

Supe said:
I'd like to be wrong but I don't see it happening. I expect RAN to get a few more helo's but I don't they should hope for or count on receiving fixed wing aircraft. That said, the SPS should be built with a possible fixed wing complement in mind. An amphibious ship capable of operating a few helo's simultaneously will make for quite a potent force.
Agreed on the helo issue, but I think the ability at least to operate the new amphib ships as "mini-carriers" WILL come about. As much as I dislike the idea, the RAAF will probably end up with JSF's, and as we get closer to a final purchase I think the flexibility for both Land based and Sea based operations that the F-35B will provide will swing defence planners in it's favour, despite the additional costs involved. I doubt our ships would be used all that much as "carriers" but more like USMC assault vessels.

The USMC Harriers in the Gulf war were the most forward deployed assets during the early days of the war because of their STOVL capability and were able to provide CAS and strike quicker than any other assets because of this, or so I've read... I can easily picture future F-35B's performing the same role to possibly greater effect...
 

Supe

New Member
Re: Royal Australian Navy force enhancements

If the RAN is indeed fortunate enough to get some JSF's, I think Australia would be as you mentioned 'quite a big player' in the region. But.. does if fit into government thinking AND would this denude programmes mean't to keep army capabilities relevant? Some have argued, that the Gov has in the past robbed Peter to pay Paul and the Army is the favourite sacrificial goat. I'm not sure that can really continue given they have been deployed quite frequently in the last few years.

As much as I dislike the idea, the RAAF will probably end up with JSF's
Is there a viable alternative?
 
A

Aussie Digger

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Re: Royal Australian Navy force enhancements

There are viable options for the RAAF, but probably not if the RAN is to operate "mini carriers". The reason the RAN is so excited about the prospect of regaining an "aircraft carrier" type capability is that it is available at only a relatively limited extra cost.

We ARE getting ships that will be capable of operating STOVL aircraft. They have already been funded. We WILL probably get JSF (even if I don't care much for the aircraft, I think the Government's out to spite me...). It's simply a matter of acquiring the F-35B in realistic numbers to provide the capability.

The F-35B will be more expensive than the F-35A we will probably end up with, but with the limited numbers of F-35B's we'd acquire anyway, it shouldn't prove to be TOO expensive to fit in, but would provide significant capability enhancements to overall ADF capability.

The Army has been the poor cousin and urgent action needed to be taken, but Gen LEAHY (and Cosgrove) have been very successful in arguing for greater army capability and these endeavours are starting to pay off (Javelin, M113 upgrade, M1A1's, Tiger ARH, NH-90's, Bushmaster, additional ASLAV's, RBS-70, Land 17, JP 129 etc, etc). I'm betting around December we'll see even further Army enhancements announced, probably including an additional battalion...

The other big ticket projects are still funded however and they might be able to massage the "mini-carrier" idea in too.

I hope so.
 

cherry

Banned Member
Re: Royal Australian Navy force enhancements

I'm glad you brought this subject up. I was about to start another thread but I can add onto this discussion. With an update of the Defence Capability Plan due for release by the end of the year, I was going to ask what people thought the next round of priorities should be for the ADF? Assuming all the big ticket projects are going to go ahead, what in addition to these should ADF be pushing for. The perfect example, and one that I personally think is the highest priority for ADF, is the formation of another batallion within Army. Some things I believe should be addressed or implemented are as follows:

ARMY
- A new mechanised batallion with additional upgraded M113, additional Abrams tanks and support equipment, additional artillery (that selected under Land 17 i.e. SP howitzer).
- The 350 M113 plus those required for additional batallion upgraded even further to address current problems with vehicle upgrade. Australian Defence Magazine June 2005 edition highlighted problems such as lack of firepower. To address this the same turret and weapons should be used as the 25mm turret on ASLAV in place of current proposal. Better heat sheilding from the powerpack for the driver, and a higher level of spall liners (again, the same as chosen for ASLAV).
- ASLAV, Bushmaster, Abrams, M113 and SP howitzer chosen under Land 17 should be armed with a remote weapons station utilising a variety of weapons.
- HIMARS should be purchased to compliment the SP and towed howitzers purchased under Land 17.
- All 14 Caribou aircraft should be replaced with a one for one purchase of Chinooks, possible able to operate from the new amphibious ships, and the existing 6 chinooks upgraded to the same standard.
- A layered anti-air defence comprising of a mix of THAAD and possibly CLAWS or MEADS systems.

NAVY
- Further upgrades to the ANZACS such as adding SM-2, a very short range anti-air missile system, a UAV such as Firescout, a number of 25mm guns, and a longer ranging main gun and munitions when they become available.
- A long range land attack missile for either AWD or collins class.

AIRFORCE
- Around 4 - 6 C-17 transporters.

Thoughts???????
 
A

Aussie Digger

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Re: Royal Australian Navy force enhancements

cherry said:
I'm glad you brought this subject up. I was about to start another thread but I can add onto this discussion. With an update of the Defence Capability Plan due for release by the end of the year, I was going to ask what people thought the next round of priorities should be for the ADF? Assuming all the big ticket projects are going to go ahead, what in addition to these should ADF be pushing for. The perfect example, and one that I personally think is the highest priority for ADF, is the formation of another batallion within Army. Some things I believe should be addressed or implemented are as follows:

ARMY
- A new mechanised batallion with additional upgraded M113, additional Abrams tanks and support equipment, additional artillery (that selected under Land 17 i.e. SP howitzer).
- The 350 M113 plus those required for additional batallion upgraded even further to address current problems with vehicle upgrade. Australian Defence Magazine June 2005 edition highlighted problems such as lack of firepower. To address this the same turret and weapons should be used as the 25mm turret on ASLAV in place of current proposal. Better heat sheilding from the powerpack for the driver, and a higher level of spall liners (again, the same as chosen for ASLAV).
- ASLAV, Bushmaster, Abrams, M113 and SP howitzer chosen under Land 17 should be armed with a remote weapons station utilising a variety of weapons.
- HIMARS should be purchased to compliment the SP and towed howitzers purchased under Land 17.
- All 14 Caribou aircraft should be replaced with a one for one purchase of Chinooks, possible able to operate from the new amphibious ships, and the existing 6 chinooks upgraded to the same standard.
- A layered anti-air defence comprising of a mix of THAAD and possibly CLAWS or MEADS systems.

NAVY
- Further upgrades to the ANZACS such as adding SM-2, a very short range anti-air missile system, a UAV such as Firescout, a number of 25mm guns, and a longer ranging main gun and munitions when they become available.
- A long range land attack missile for either AWD or collins class.

AIRFORCE
- Around 4 - 6 C-17 transporters.

Thoughts???????
They are fine ideas Cherry and probably much in accord with most people around here, the problem though will be the funding. The ADF wants all that kit you've mentioned, but the current DCP is funded to $50 Billion already and can't fit in all that you've mentioned there.

In relation to the M113's, the Army structure doesn't allow for the 3 man turret of the ASLAV throughout the mechanised infantry battalion. With only 9 persons in a section, having 3 people crew the mech vehicle would leave only 6 dismounted troops which is an insufficient number of assault troops...

An increase in section size would therefore be required which would un-balance the battalion in relation to the other battalions and would require additional man-power which the Army apparently can't afford.

An additional mech battalion would only excerbate the situation. A better solution might be to adopt a different 1x man turret that can still mount the 25mm cannon, plus a 7.62mm GPMG and the appropriate sensors. Such a suggestion has already been mooted within Army, but no funding currently exists to implement this.

Another suggestion is that enquiries have shown that the current turret could be easily modified to include a 40mm auto grenade launcher in addition to the 0.50cal MMG currently included. This would fit in with Land 40 Phase 2 which will likely acquire auto grenade launchers for ALL of Army and provide a significant firepower boost, without the cost of the 25mm Bushmaster... However there's not even any money for this at present...
 
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