Philippine Air Force Discussions and Updates

Sandhi Yudha

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Remarkable development.

Philippine Air Force sends pilots, maintenance crew to Turkey to train on T129B ATAK helicopter

The Philippine Air Force (PAF) announced on 22 May that it is sending pilots and maintenance crew to Turkey to undergo training on the Turkish Aerospace (TA) T129B ATAK...
www.janes.com www.janes.com

So according to Tusas Aerospace's director of marketing and communications, the US State Department had recently approved the export license for the US-made LHTEC CTS800-4A engines that power the helicopter.
 
Ananda

Ananda

The Bunker Group

Philippine Air Force to receive first T129B attack helos in Q3 2021

Philippine Secretary of National Defense Delfin Lorenzana revealed on 24 May that Manila has ordered six Turkish Aerospace (TA) T129B ATAK helicopters for the Philippine...
www.janes.com www.janes.com

According to this, Philippines defense minister claim that 6 T129 will be deliver to PAF begin by Q3 this year. They're very sure that all the problem concerning delivery of this Turkish Made attack helicopter already handle.
 
Ananda

Ananda

The Bunker Group
www.pna.gov.ph

PH set to acquire 6 Turkish attack helicopters: Lorenzana

MANILA – The Philippines has acquired Turkish Aerospace Industries T129B "ATAK" helicopters for its attack helicopter program, Defense Secretary Delfin Lorenzana said on Monday."We have already ordered six (T129B helicopters)," Lorenzana said in a message to the Philippine News Agency...
www.pna.gov.ph www.pna.gov.ph

Seems officially Philippines already got confirmation that their T129 will be deliver to them in batch of two from Q3. This's just another confirmation from what Jane's already mentioned on link in previous post.

I do have to give Turkish team some thumbs up on abilities to keep Philippines stay with their T129 order. Despite even US already offering counter during T129 engine fiasco. Could this mean Biden actually will provide more leanniance toward Sultan Erdo compared to Trump ? Something that in contrary as how Democrats shown with Turkey so far.
 
OPSSG

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
OPSSG said:
1. …Regardless of which fighter type they choose, to be able to fly 2 to 3 meaningful sorties for the 1st day of war (to contest the air space before being shot down due to a lack of AWACS support), they will also need to spend a 2.5 to 3 billion US dollars to:

(i) buy 16 to 20 fighters (instead of 12) to form a full squadron of 4 to 5 flights, with each flight assigned a specific role with mission appropriate ordinance and targeting or other specialist pods carried;​
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(ii) train and sustain this force by acquiring ground based equipment; spare engines and other parts (at least 2 sets) and a flight simulator;​
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(iii) …​

3. …IMO, the 2017 Battle of Marawi demonstrated the shortfalls in the ability of the Philippine Air Force (PAF) to execute its CONOPS and air power is more than just about control of the air. The PAF needs a capability roadmap to improve its (1) combat readiness, (2) sustainable capability and (3) force structure for a period of 12 to 15 years after the delivery of the first fighter.
  • From a cost perspective, acquiring fighters is a different ball game when compared with purchasing 12 FA-50 lead-in fighter trainers from Korea at P18.9 billion (US$415.7 million) and a few AGM-65G2 Mavericks and AIM-9L/I-1 sidewinders, from Germany's Diehl Raytheon Missile Systeme GmbH.
  • For comparison, Morocco’s recent acquisition of 25 F-16C/D Block 72 fighters estimated at US$3.787 billion will give the Pinoys a sticker price shock on the cost of acquiring block 50/52 or the latest block 70/72 ‘V’ model F-16s. Likewise, Brazil’s order of 36 Gripens for US$4.16 billion will make the Pinoys realise the real cost of acquiring fighters.
Numbers matter. The Pinoys need to allocate long term funding to sustain its force structure, which needs to be two or more fighter squadrons (36 or more), without which the PAF cannot survive the 1st day of war. Right now, with 12 FA-50s armed with short ranged air to air missiles, the PAF will struggle to survive the 1st hour of war.
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I am grateful that the Pinoys are likely to choose to buy 12 new JAS-39C/Ds (along with the transfer of 2 more used units) — 14 is better than 12 units — no details of how many single seaters vs double seaters. According to a local defence blog, the Technical Working Group had revised its recommendation and go with the Saab JAS-39C/D Gripen fighter aircraft from Sweden. 12 new Saab JAS-39C/D Gripen fighters will be supplied by Saab, plus an addition 2 units would be provided by Saab free of charge. All fighters would be upgraded to the latest MS20 standard.

Let’s see how long the Pinoys can keep the JAS-39C/D fleet flying before they start cannibalising parts from the 2 free transfer aircraft; and I wonder when will they crash their first fighter, as part of their growing pains to re-establish a fighter capability. I wish the Swedish good luck with the sales — they will really need it.
 
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K

koxinga

Well-Known Member
OPSSG said:
I am grateful that the Pinoys are likely to choose to buy 12 new JAS-39C/Ds (along with the transfer of 2 more used units) — 14 is better than 12 units — no details of how many single seaters vs double seaters. According to a local defence blog, the Technical Working Group had revised its recommendation and go with the Saab JAS-39C/D Gripen fighter aircraft from Sweden. 12 new Saab JAS-39C/D Gripen fighters will be supplied by Saab, plus an addition 2 units would be provided by Saab free of charge. All fighters would be upgraded to the latest MS20 standard.
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The offer from Saab was for all 14 new units. These are likely the 14 (10 x C, 4 x D) airframes that were ordered by FMV (Swedish Defence Material Admin) to keep the production line live while Saab transition to the Gripen E, hence the ability to offer an expedited delivery.

Nothing is final yet though. It depends on whether their capricious President is willing to sign-off on the proposal, plus the follow-on negotiations that needs to take place before a formal contract signature. And it has to happen soon because their elections are coming in a year.
 
OPSSG

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
The JAS-39C/D, yesterday’s tech at today’s prices (or better than nothing approach) — Part 1

koxinga said:
The offer from Saab was for all 14 new units. These are likely the 14 (10 x C, 4 x D) airframes that were ordered by FMV (Swedish Defence Material Admin) to keep the production line live while Saab transition to the Gripen E, hence the ability to offer an expedited delivery.

Nothing is final yet though. It depends on whether their capricious President is willing to sign-off on the proposal, plus the follow-on negotiations that needs to take place before a formal contract signature. And it has to happen soon because their elections are coming in a year.
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Thanks for the correction; and additional info.

1. Since Nov 2005, this thread has been discussing fighters for the Philippines. In the first post of this thread, it was suggested that the capability will be restored in 2011. They are only 10 years behind scheduled plans.

2. Does it matter if there are more delays? Especially since I don’t take any ASEAN air force with 14 fighters seriously. If they buy a second batch to grow the fleet to between 20 to 28, then I would take them more seriously. Ideally an air force should have at least 36 fighters but what to do; the Pinoys, like the Malaysians, always buy less than needed to maintain a minimum sortie generation level.

3. Malaysia’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs said in a 1 Jun 2021 statement it would summon the Chinese ambassador over 16 People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) planes that flew over a Malaysian “maritime zone,” in the South China Sea. Malaysia’s air force scrambled its own jets. Very soon PLAAF’s fleet of Xi'an Y-20 (flying with the indigenous WS-20 turbofan engines) will be training to land a PLA air borne brigade. They have started flying in large formations to familiarise themselves with long feet-wet fights; to give them a rapid intervention capability.
 
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K

koxinga

Well-Known Member
14 Gripens is better than zero and gets them back into the fighter business. At least that will relief the burden of QRA from the F/A-50s. If the Chinese start playing the same games as they do with the Taiwanese, it will just wear out the usable life of their airframes much faster.

Re the PLAAF flight, the question is whether the Pinoys actually detected the flight as they should have passed through PADIZ. All that kit isn't useful if they are not able string together a real-time situation picture. That is a priority development given that they are asset light and the ability to marshal their limited platforms and use them effectively (e.g airpower generation) would be critical.
 
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OPSSG

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
The JAS-39C/D, yesterday’s tech at today’s prices (or better than nothing approach) — Part 2

koxinga said:
14 Gripens is better than zero and gets them back into the fighter business. At least that will relief the burden of QRF from the F/A-50s. If the Chinese start playing the same games as they do with the Taiwanese, it will just wear out the usable life of their airframes much faster.
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https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1403338713669722112
4. I think the Pinoy and Malaysian politicians are masters of lying to their electorate about being serious on defence — this pretence of military platform capability allows their politicians to behave more stupidly. I would rather it be clear to all in ASEAN that the Philippines Air Force is all hot air and no force; and that their navy does have to not pretend to be anything more than a corrupt coast guard. More importantly, at a systems level the only ASEAN Air Force not over matched by China at a capability level is that of Singapore’s small but capable air force — with its 60 upgraded F-16s and 40 F-15SGs.

5. The Pinoy version of Gripens being procured are a dated capability compared to the AESA radars and HUD on the J-10C and the J-15 (carrier borne fighter). These AESA radars were developed by the No.14 Research Institute of the state-owned China Electronics Technology Group Corporation (CETC) and both the J-10C and the J-15 have a potent suite of AAMs like the PL-15. CETC’s radar products can be found on a variety of Chinese weapons and equipment including warships, warplanes, air defense systems, strategic early warning systems, anti-drone systems and satellites. The PLA(N) also built new hangers at Lingshui to accommodate a J-15 regiment to support CV-17, which will carry the KJ-600 AEW.

6. On 11 Feb 2020, on President Duterte's order, the Philippines Department of Foreign Affairs notified the US that the Philippines would terminate the two-decade-old agreement — which process of termination is paused. Duterte as agent of the PRC said the US needs to explain why it didn't pressure China into withdrawing its ships from Scarborough Shoal despite the Philippines' adherence to the 2012 agreement. It is my hope that he can succeed in terminating the VFA so as to demonstrate to the Americans the uselessness of having the Philippines as an ally.
 
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koxinga

Well-Known Member
Well, they know themselves. If they had the money, they would have gone for the BLK 72 F-16s. Still, better than nothing, if they can get access to the Meteors and IRIS-Ts. Or at least late modern, C5 AMRAAMs, 9Xs.

Those that can afford it (e.g Singapore and to some degree, Indonesia) would be... forward planning. It is not about that PLAAF fields today, but what they will be fielding in the next 10 years because that will decide what programmes to pursue now.
 
K

koxinga

Well-Known Member
I do not come to defencetalk often. This account was created more than 10 years ago? Shit, I'm getting old. I think I've posted a handful of times since then and this week is an exception.

You will be able to find me on China-Defense Forum although I don't post that much now anywhere. Been there for about 20 odd years, observing the growth of PLA since the late 90s. They are not there yet... but they are getting very close. This is probably the decade where the hardware catches up with the software (training). Cheers.
 
S

swerve

Super Moderator
OPSSG said:
I am grateful that the Pinoys are likely to choose to buy 12 new JAS-39C/Ds (along with the transfer of 2 more used units) — 14 is better than 12 units — no details of how many single seaters vs double seaters. According to a local defence blog, the Technical Working Group had revised its recommendation and go with the Saab JAS-39C/D Gripen fighter aircraft from Sweden. 12 new Saab JAS-39C/D Gripen fighters will be supplied by Saab, plus an addition 2 units would be provided by Saab free of charge. All fighters would be upgraded to the latest MS20 standard.

Let’s see how long the Pinoys can keep the JAS-39C/D fleet flying before they start cannibalising parts from the 2 free transfer aircraft; and I wonder when will they crash their first fighter, as part of their growing pains to re-establish a fighter capability. I wish the Swedish good luck with the sales — they will really need it.
Click to expand...
SAAB flew a Gripen D with a GaN AESA array (still the PS-05 back end - the MK 4 of the MS20 standard - just with software updates) over a year ago, so in theory the Philippines could have that fitted to its Gripens - but I expect it'd delay delivery & probably cost more.
 
Sandhi Yudha

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Five new S-70i Black Hawk helicopters under delivery to the Philippines. All five in just one An-124.
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1405500834046226433


I didnt understand why the Philippines Air force ordered the much more expensive Sikorsky S-70i after decades of being a UH-1 user, and they seem to be very happy with the Bell 412EP.

They bought some Polish helicopters because of the lower price compared to the 412EP, but due to several issues on the PZL W-3A Sokol helicopters, the airforce wanted again more Bells.

So the Philippines ordered 16 Bell 412EPIs in 2018, but several sectors within the Canadian Government questioned the sale of the helicopters to the Philippines, with concerns of using them in human rights abuse by the Philippine military. Canada even threatened to stop deliveries should it be found that the Philippines used the helicopters to activities related to human rights abuse.
Because of this Duterte cancelled the acquisition.

After almost a year of selection process, the Philippine Air Force decided to go with the Sikorsky S-70i Black Hawk, after Sikorsky with the help of the US government, pushed the prices down considering the Black Hawk was originally the most expensive among the offers. So from which i understand there are 16 S-70i ordered under a $241,4 million deal, with 6 of them already delivered, and this is the second batch of 5, with the last batch of 5 expected to be delivered in the end of this year.



Please correct me if i made some mistakes.
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Arji said:
One of their S-70i crashed during nighttime training, prompting an immediate grounding of the whole fleet until the cause can be determined. No survivors, my condolence to the victims.

PAF’s Black Hawk chopper crashes in Tarlac, no survivors found
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Besides the human loss, its extra painful that it is such a brandnew helicopter.

|"The government entered into a deal with a Polish company in March 2019 to produce the helicopters so all Huey choppers can be decommissioned following a helicopter crash in Bukidnon in January."|
I expect they mean to only replace the oldest UH-1s.
www.cnn.ph

6 dead after PH military's new Black Hawk chopper crashed

The chopper was carrying three pilots and three crew members before it took off around 8 p.m., according to PAF spokesperson Lt. Col. Maynard Mariano.
www.cnn.ph www.cnn.ph

Condolences for the people left behind.
 
R

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Arji said:
Any plans for the PAF to actually buy them?
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A request for clearance would have come from the Phillipine Government to the USGOV so there must be some tentative plans in place for an actual order but nothing concrete in the public domain as far as i know.
 
Sandhi Yudha

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
A

Arji

Active Member
It's interesting though. Assuming they actually procure it, they'll have the ability to send AShM via air and land-based system with Brahmos. What's unfortunate is that it doesn't seem that they have any plan for medium range AMRAAMs despite planning to buy block 70/72 F-16s. Can't help to think that their focus is entirely on maritime deterrence, which most likely meant for Chinese fishing boats and some PLAN ships.

But I feel like they completely neglecting aerial intrusion like the one Malaysia just had.

Edit: Actually I stand corrected, the document mentioned AIM 120C amongst the list of things approved for sale.
 
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OPSSG

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Sandhi Yudha said:
But like Arji already said, this is just the approval, lets see if the Philippines really will order these items.
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According to a Pinoy blogger, they have chosen the Saab JAS-39C/D Gripen (due to what I consider to be a small price difference with the 10+2 F-16V weapons package). The Technical Working Group (TWG) for the Multi-Role Fighter Acquisition Project has revised its recommendation and go with the Saab JAS-39C/D Gripen; their goal is to buy whatever rubbish they can, instead of following required specs. If the TWG specify a Gripen E or at least a C with an AESA radar, I would understand.

In May 2021, Philippine President Rodrigo Duterte rebuked his top diplomat for telling China to “get the f--- out” of disputed waters, explaining other officials in his government lack the prerogative to speak so indelicately. IMO, their President is an agent of China, if they want his blessing to proceed for the remaining time of his term, it will not be an American made fighter with an AESA radar. The Pinoys want to make sure they defang mutual defence treaty to the point that they will not a military target for China; which is why the VFA cancellation is only suspended (and for the second time, following President Duterte’s desire is to shake the money tree of US military freebies). They want the benefits of an alliance without the burden of any responsibility.
 
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