Pakistan Air Force [PAF] News and Discussions

[SABRE]

The announcements also have PAF acquiring a number of "used" USAF aircraft. The total number of upgrade kits being purchased is 60 for existing PAF fighter and the additional "second hand fighter" purchase.

Adding the 36 new-build fighters gives a figure of 96 aircraft, meaning all of the PAF F-16 fleet will be of Block 52 configuration or equivalent. A pretty sweet deal really.

96 aircraft will be enough to equip 4x fighter Squadrons plus the training units and developmental/attrition aircraft.

Added to the Erieye and advanced weapons purchases, plus it's other fighter projects, PAF is developing a truly capable force...

No AD...the reports are confusing. According to reliable sources 36 F-16s are going to be purchased out of which only 18 are new C/D models & 18 used Blk 15 A/B models. Adding 35 or 36 F-16s in service & the 2 X-USAF F-16s given earlier this year it makes about 73 or 74 F-16s.

[Out of 73 or 74 units, only 18 would be C/D & 55 to 56 used Blk 15A/Bs MLUed]

 

[beleg]

The DCSA says 36 F-16 C/D block 50/52 (different airframe from MLU/CCIP blk 10/15) & modernisation package for 60 F-16 A/B planes.. Since PAF has around 35 F-16 already in service we can assume ~25 planes from US sources will be refurbished and sold to Pakistan along with 36 brand new block 50/52s (there are no second hand available of these blocks) if all options are exercised.

If PAF chooses v9 radar for A/Bs this will indeed be very interesting and with the limited engine power of these planes we can expect these planes to be used for air-air roles .. However the v9 which has a SAR mode is a little overkill imo for F-16 A/Bs .The new planes with their CFT might be better in strike role. Its also interesting that although PAF shows interest in the JHMCS, they are asking for Aim-9Ms..

 

[SABRE]

The DCSA says 36 F-16 C/D block 50/52 (different airframe from MLU/CCIP blk 10/15) & modernisation package for 60 F-16 A/B planes.. Since PAF has around 35 F-16 already in service we can assume ~25 planes from US sources will be refurbished and sold to Pakistan along with 36 brand new block 50/52s (there are no second hand available of these blocks) if all options are exercised.

The Press hand outs given by DMoP says 36 F-16 units - 18C/D & 18 used A/B, but the DCSA says 36 C/D. The most reliable sources in Pakistan also confirm 18 F-16 C/D. (Also the www.f-16.net says 18 C/D models)

I guess we will have to wait till MoU & final deal is signed between Pakistan/PAF & USA/Lockheed-Martin. The DMoP has habbit of miss leading the press & public untill the deal is signed.

On the other hand 18C/D models dont even make much of a sense.

If PAF chooses v9 radar for A/Bs this will indeed be very interesting and with the limited engine power of these planes we can expect these planes to be used for air-air roles .. However the v9 which has a SAR mode is a little overkill imo for F-16 A/Bs .The new planes with their CFT might be better in strike role. Its also interesting that although PAF shows interest in the JHMCS, they are asking for Aim-9Ms..

These are the radars PAF has choosen for A/B models:

APG-68(V)9 with Synthetic Aperture Radar or APG-66(V)2 radar.

 

[beleg]

66-V2 is standard on Euro-MLU F-16 A/B s.. However v9 which has SAR capabilities (mostly used for strike missions) is a bit overkill for the weak engine (low weapons load) of F-16A/Bs imo.. However if the engine upgrades/overhauls will give significant increase in maximum take of weight then it might be feasible to spend the extra bucks.

Currently Turkey is modernising her F-16 fleet under CCIP program as well , yet only the Block 50 and perhaps some/all(?) of the optioned Block 40s will be getting 68-v9. The Block 30s ,which are much more capable aircraft than F-16 A/Bs will be getting only air-air improvement modeules of the said radar not the SAR option.

 

[umair]

Sabre it's 36 C/Ds. Got it from someone involved in the procurement process.

 

[pshamim]

I hear the vipers ordered are the "ES" version. CFT and Wepaons ordered also point to this very strong probability..

 

[SABRE]

Sabre it's 36 C/Ds. Got it from someone involved in the procurement process.

Thansk umrain; you saved me from going through phone calls and mass emails

So its;

35 or 36 Block 15 A/B in service + 2 Ex-USAF F-16s + possible 22 used F-16 A/Bs = 59 to 60 A/B varients + (36 Block 50/52+ C/Ds) = 95 to 96 F-16s. (Aussie Diggers calculation)

Well I guess number would eventually end up to 100 F-16s in Block 52/52+ configuration.

Adding the Jf-17s as mass support & defence fighters + the ERIEYEs & possible J-10 purchase.

Well I guess Aussie Digger is right at some level. It is good enough to defend Pakistani air-space. Not to forget the AIM-120.C5s & JDAMs. May possibly provide edge over the Eastern threat in Air to Air combat & ground attack capability.

 

[SABRE]

I hear the vipers ordered are the "ES" version. CFT and Wepaons ordered also point to this very strong probability..

"ES" version ??? or you mean to say E/F version ???

 

[BilalK]

There are 34 F-16A/B Block 15 and Block 15OCU in PAF service; the PAF will procure another 26 used F-16A/B aircraft under the EDA program. That will bring the total number of F-16A/Bs to 60; these aircraft will thus be given a MLU upgrade which avionically brings them up to par with Block 50/52+. In addition, the PAF will definitely procure 18 Block 50/52+ with an option for 18 more - which will likely be executed; that brings the total F-16 number to 96. It will likely equip a total of 5 fighter squadrons - 2 F-16C/D squadrons, and 3 F-16A/B squadrons.

Pakistani officials have said that they plan to procure up to 77-80 F-16s from the Americans; thus far 62 will be procured (if all options are excersized). This leaves a gap of 15-18 additional F-16s - which could be either new-built Block 50/52+, used F-16A/Bs, or used F-16C/Ds. IMO if another F-16 deal is reached, it will likely include AIM-9X.

 

[pshamim]

"ES" version ??? or you mean to say E/F version ???

Here is some information on the ES version. They are almost blk-60 without the AESA Radar.

Please compare the information with the complete list of blk-52 and weapons ordered by Pakistan and you will understand what I am alluding to:

<H2>General Dynamics/Lockheed Martin F-16ES

Last revised March 31, 2000
Written by: Joseph Baugher
In the early 1990s, the Israel Defense Forces/Air Force (IDF/AF) announced that they were seeking a new strike fighter to replace the Kurnass 2000 (F-4 Phantom upgrade).
The proposed extended-range F-16ES (Enhanced Strategic) version of the Fighting Falcon was originally developed for the Israeli strike fighter competition. In order to provide increased range, conformal fuel tanks which hold an extra 3200 pounds of fuel were to be fitted. These tanks accommodated almost as much fuel as underwing tanks, and in addition they produced much less drag and freed up underwing stations for weapons. With these tanks fitted, the F-16ES would have a 1025 mile unrefueled mission range with a warload of 4000 pounds and four air-to-air missiles, which was 40 percent better than that which the Block 50 F-16C/D could achieve.
An additional feature was the replacement of the drag-inducing external LANTIRN pods by an internally-mounted system. The terrain-following capability was built into the AN/APG-68 radar, and an internal FLIR/laser system was added in which only the sensors and laser transmitters actually protruded out into the airflow.
The F-16ES was also to have been provided with a more automated cockpit, making it possible to carry out precision night strikes with just a single pilot, making a second cockpit unnecessary.
Unfortunately for Lockheed Martin, this project lost out to the McDonnell Douglas F-15I Strike Eagle in the competition, but Israel did arrange to take delivery of 50 early model F-16s.
Following the loss of the Israeli strike fighter competition to the F-15I Strike Eagle, Lockheed Martin has resurrected the project following an expression of interest by several other nations. Lockheed has begun flight-testing with F-16C 83-1120 carrying modifications designed to explore this project further. The aircraft first flew on November 5, 1994, and had aerodynamic shaping of the upper fuselage to simulate the 24-foot long removable conformal fuel tanks. The aircraft has also been flown with 600 US-gallon underwing tanks, along with an aerodynamic shape representing an internal nose-mounted FLIR (both above and below the nose), and a weapons loading of two 2000-pound bombs.
The flight test program was concluded in January of 1995, and the aircraft was demodified and returned to Edwards AFB on January 23, 1995. Although there are no immediate plans to produce the F-16ES, some of the innovations produced by this project will probably appear on the Block 60/62 F-16C/D if and when it is produced.

</H2>

 

[SABRE]

thanks pshamim sir; certainly very informative.

Anyways, I herd that with CFTs the cannon/gun becomes use less as CFT covers it up. Is it true ?

 

[pshamim]

thanks pshamim sir; certainly very informative.

Anyways, I herd that with CFTs the cannon/gun becomes use less as CFT covers it up. Is it true ?

No it is not true. F-16s with CFTs retains the use of its six barrel 20mm Gatling gun.

 

[gf0012-aust]

No it is not true. F-16s with CFTs retains the use of its six barrel 20mm Gatling gun.

Isn't the CFT aft of the gun pack anyway?

 

[SABRE]

News from DT it self.

Bush Plans $5 Billion Arms Sale To Pakistan​

Jim Wolf, Reuters
Tue, 4 Jul 2006, 00:55

The Bush Administration said on July 3 that it planned to sell Pakistan up to 36 advanced F-16 fighter jets built by Lockheed Martin Corp. in a weapons package that could be worth more than $5 billion.

The proposed sale of 18 new "Fighting Falcon" fighters with an option for 18 more demonstrates the United States’ commitment to a long-term relationship with Pakistan, White House spokesman Tony Snow told reporters.

The State Department said it was part of a drive to broaden a strategic partnership with Pakistan and advance U.S. interests in South Asia.

The new F-16 C/D Block 50/52 aircraft would be used for close air support in the U.S.-declared global war on terrorism, among other things, the Pentagon’s Defense Security Cooperation Agency said in a notice to Congress. The agency, responsible for government-to-government arms sales, said the fighters would be worth $3 billion if all options were exercised.

"This proposed sale will contribute to the foreign policy and national security of the United States by helping an ally meet its legitimate defense requirements," the Pentagon said in the notice.

The proposed sale includes upgrades for Pakistan’s fleet of 34 earlier model F-16s and a support package for up to 26 refurbished F-16s that Pakistan eventually may buy, Snow said.

These 60 "mid-life upgrade" kits -- which would improve on-board radar and make it possible to carry more precision-guided weapons -- could be worth as much as $1.3 billion, the Pentagon told Congress in one of four related notices dated June 28 and made public on July 3.

Once notified, Congress has 30 days to block such a sale. It is not expected to do so in light of Pakistan’s strategic importance to the United States. Consultations with Congress have been under way since last year, Snow said.

In March 2005, the United States said it would resume sales of F-16s to Pakistan after a 16-year break intended to sanction Pakistan for its nuclear program.

Formal notification coincided with initial votes in Congress for the administration’s plan to create a broad nuclear cooperation agreement with India, Pakistan’s archrival, that reverses decades of U.S. policy.

Pakistan initially had asked about buying as many as 75 new F-16s and 11 refurbished ones, Air Force Lt. Gen. Jeffrey Kohler, head of the Pentagon’s security cooperation agency, told Reuters in May 2005. The deal was scaled back after the Oct. 8, 2005, earthquake that killed more than 73,000 people.

U.S. weapons that would equip the F-16s include 500 AIM-120C5 advanced medium range air-to-air missiles and 200 AIM-9M-8/9 "Sidewinder" heat-seeking missiles, both built by Raytheon Co., as well as 500 satellite-guided Joint Direct Attack Munitions made by Boeing Co., the notice to Congress said.

India, which has fought three wars with Pakistan since the 1947 partition of British India, objected to the sale before it was made public. "We can reiterate our position that this step is not conducive to improving ties between India and Pakistan," Foreign Ministry spokesman Navtej Sarna told reporters in New Delhi.

Washington has offered India a chance to buy F-16s or Boeing’s F/A-18E/F Super Hornet strike fighter as part of a deal that could cement a sea change in U.S.-India ties since the end of the Cold War.

Lockheed Martin, the Pentagon’s biggest supplier, said the proposed sale to Pakistan could mean an extension of the F-16 production line beyond 2009.

Lockheed spokeswoman Catherine Hernandez-Blades said that if all options were exercised the company could sustain more than an additional 1,200 jobs in Texas, where the F-16 is assembled.

Related News Regarding Pakistani Arms Purchase:​

US Unveils F-16 Package For Pakistan
​

AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE

Washington: The White House on Monday unveiled plans to sell Pakistan up to 36 F-16 fighters in a deal that could total five billion dollars and was expected to draw an unhappy response from US ally India.

"Pakistan is a Major Non-NATO Ally, which has cooperated closely with us in the global war on terror. This proposed sale demonstrates our commitment to a long-term relationship with Pakistan," spokesman Tony Snow said in a statement.

"The proposed sale includes 18 new F-16 aircraft with an option to purchase another 18 new planes, a support package for up to 26 used F-16s, a munitions package, an upgrade package for Pakistan's current fleet of 34 F-16s, and logistical support," Snow said.

US President George W. Bush's administration notified the US Congress of the plan on June 28, said Snow, according to whom the proposed package is valued at approximately five billion dollars.

Pakistan agreed in April to purchase a scaled-down package of American F-16 fighters after foregoing a larger purchase to finance relief efforts in last year's earthquake, which killed more than 73,000 people in its zone of Kashmir and North Western Frontier Province.

Washington had blocked the sale of F-16s to Pakistan for 15 years to protest its nuclear weapons program, but gave the green light in March 2005 to reward the South Asian ally for its help in the "war on terror."

Pakistan already has more than 30 multi-role F-16s made by US aerospace giant Lockheed Martin Corp.

India has in the past expressed concern about weapons sales to its arch-rival and neighbor, Pakistan.

Source: DEFENCE TALK NEWS
LINK: http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/article_006701.php
​

​

 

[hovercraft]

India shows sadness and unwillingness on the US sale of F-16s and AMRAAMs to Pakistan. Indian spokesperson said during briefings to media that they are not willing the US sale of F-16 and AMRAAMs to Pakistan. And also this sale will effect on US India relations.
Even they are buying more advanced 200 Su-30MKI (with 150 built in India under ToT).

 

[Aussie Digger]

India shows sadness and unwillingness on the US sale of F-16s and AMRAAMs to Pakistan. Indian spokesperson said during briefings to media that they are not willing the US sale of F-16 and AMRAAMs to Pakistan. And also this sale will effect on US India relations.
Even they are buying more advanced 200 Su-30MKI (with 150 built in India under ToT).

Yes it's a bit rich really. PAF so far seems to have confirmed 18 new build Block 52 F-16's and 26 "used" F-16's which along with it's existing F-16's will be upgraded to basically Block 52 standard. PAF also has 18 options which will probably be exercised at some point.

As such they will IF all options are exercised have a 96 strong fleet of modern up to date fighters. India meanwhile is evaluating 126 new build fighters, including similarly advanced model F-16's AND Super Hornets etc. India is in no danger of losing it's qualitative or quantative edge over Pakistan, yet still bleats about it.

All this is doing is evening things up a bit (detente?) so that no side has an overwhelming advantage which may encourage "hot heads"...

 

[umair]

Read this last night on pakdef and since it comes from a very reliable member there, I have'nt bothered confirming it.

"Number 14 squadron, 'The Tailchoppers' have started conversion training of their pilots on F-16s and will be the first to re equip with the MLUd variants".

This squadron bore the brunt of the air war during the Afghan years and scored the most kills by any of the three(at that time) Viper squadrons. They are based at PAF Kamra and hold the responsibilty for the air defence of the capital Islamabad as well as the KRL labs. Besides this duty, this squadron is also a multirole designated squadron. Currently they operate F-7Ps with wich they were equipped in the early 1990s when the Falcons were consolidated with nos 9 & 11 squadrons at Paf Mushaf Sargodha.

 

[merocaine]

"Washington has offered India a chance to buy F-16s or Boeing’s F/A-18E/F Super Hornet strike fighter as part of a deal that could cement a sea change in U.S.-India ties since the end of the Cold War."

I'm confused if there is a war between india and pakistan, will the americans continue to sell weapons to both countries?

 

[swerve]

"Washington has offered India a chance to buy F-16s or Boeing’s F/A-18E/F Super Hornet strike fighter as part of a deal that could cement a sea change in U.S.-India ties since the end of the Cold War."

I'm confused if there is a war between india and pakistan, will the americans continue to sell weapons to both countries?

No. They'll use the supply - or not - of spares, weapons, etc as diplomatic tools. As they always do. Which is why India shouldn't buy American.

 

[merocaine]

Yeah I can't imagine Indians buying american if it means allowing the US effictive veto over sustained military action. Althought the US would probobly drop Pakistan if they ever thought it would significatly damage relations with India.
Which is probobly why Pakistan is developing the JXX with China. Is that still going ahead?

What is confusing to me is that the americans see india as a potental allie, and counter weight to china.( who they see as the biggest threat to their regional hegemony) Yet they are flogging large amounts of weaponry to India's greatest rivial. This seems a little strange, in effect their feeding an arms race which is tying down a large amount of india's resources, which could be used to project power across asia.

Is it just a case of sell sell sell? or is there a rational behond the economic argument?