Pakistan Air Force [PAF] News and Discussions

[hovercraft]

Pakistan and Turkey jointly produce Uav’s.

According to Jane’s Defence Weekly,
Pakistan and Turkey plan to sign a deal next month for joint production of six to seven tactical unmanned aerial vehicles.
And Pakistan and Turkey agreed to cooperate in 44 fields of defence, instead of 35. (Daily news paper nawa-i-waqt)

http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/june-2006/30/index12.php

and my previous post deleted?

 

[webmaster]

and my previous post deleted?

Please tell me you know why it was deleted? :nono

 

[hovercraft]

Please tell me you know why it was deleted? :nono

Off course I will tell you, because that looks funny or joke.
But we are hearing sounds that F-16s are coming Pakistan from 1988 and until 2006 only two repaired f-16s comes few months ago. And which I said, that is said by already US top ministry person if I am right then she was former spoke person. If you were not deleted the post then may be any other member shows her name which I am forgetting.
And my claim is world would see again this deal would fail if it takes more then 2 years, because world and world politics are now changing. And 99.9% chances are looking that Pakistan and US relations would not remain more, especially if USA attacked on Iran. And Pakistan also trying to make better relations with Russia. Like Musharraf said few weeks ago that Pakistan is interested to buy weapons from Russia.

 

[webmaster]

You are pretty much jumping all over the place here my friend.

We are discussing world defence and military issues and what are Pakistan air force's requirements to meet the future threats not how world politics have changed and how that is affecting Pakistan. Whatever the course maybe for world politicis for or against pakistan or even course of politics inside pakistan, Pakistan's military requirements and how they are obtained rests upon the military that protects it.

Politics don't necessarily change how you should look at strategic security as far as military is concerned. Look what is happening with JSF program yet with all the politics, countries (defence elite) are finding solutions to keep that program going. Let politicians play politics and let the military do what it is suppose to do.

 

[aprasadi]

though much hype is going about thsese F16 planes, i dont understand why pakistan is going after F16 in particular when some really good 4.5 generation are available in market. when they knw that in future they will have to face much superior planes like Sukoi-MKI, if deal goes through thn MIG35/F-18 super hornet,Mirage 2005 there is no point in buying F16 A/B block from USA. Instead to counter India's threat they should be buying the superior aircrafts like F-18 super hornets, Rafale, Eurofighter(comparable to F-22) . These are the only planes by why which they can prevent IAF onslaught. Instead of going for numbers its always better to go for few numbers bt with best technology.
I think its the shear the USA pressure due to which pakistan is buying these F16's which USA itself is phasing out.

 

[swerve]

though much hype is going about thsese F16 planes, i dont understand why pakistan is going after F16 in particular when some really good 4.5 generation are available in market. when they knw that in future they will have to face much superior planes like Sukoi-MKI, if deal goes through thn MIG35/F-18 super hornet,Mirage 2005 there is no point in buying F16 A/B block from USA. Instead to counter India's threat they should be buying the superior aircrafts like F-18 super hornets, Rafale, Eurofighter(comparable to F-22) . These are the only planes by why which they can prevent IAF onslaught. Instead of going for numbers its always better to go for few numbers bt with best technology.
I think its the shear the USA pressure due to which pakistan is buying these F16's which USA itself is phasing out.

There are advantages to the F-16 for Pakistan. It's already in service, so introducing more is easier & quicker than a completely new type. It's in production, on a line with spare capacity, so they can get pretty quick delivery of new ones (quicker than Rafale, Typhoon or F-18E). It's cheaper than any of them. There are large second hand stocks, so they can boost numbers even more cheaply - again, unlike all those others. As an interim buy, pending getting something better, buying F-16s makes perfect sense.

They also intend to buy J-10 as a high-end fighter.

 

[SABRE]

though much hype is going about thsese F16 planes, i dont understand why pakistan is going after F16 in particular when some really good 4.5 generation are available in market. when they knw that in future they will have to face much superior planes like Sukoi-MKI, if deal goes through thn MIG35/F-18 super hornet,Mirage 2005 there is no point in buying F16 A/B block from USA. Instead to counter India's threat they should be buying the superior aircrafts like F-18 super hornets, Rafale, Eurofighter(comparable to F-22) . These are the only planes by why which they can prevent IAF onslaught. Instead of going for numbers its always better to go for few numbers bt with best technology.
I think its the shear the USA pressure due to which pakistan is buying these F16's which USA itself is phasing out.

Actually the 4.5 Gen fighters are available in market but they are not in production except for Rafale (in which Pakistan has shown more interest), but the thing is they are very expensive at this time. PAF not only needs force modernization in terms of Quality but also in terms of quantity & at this moment F-16s offer both quality & quantity.

Going for 4.5 Generation aircraft would be foolish at this moment. Just look at the price ; EF-2000 is USD 70+ mil, Rafale is USD 60+mil & although Lockheed-Martin says its USD 50+ mil the price of JSF is going to go above USD 65 mil. These are initial prices. Once the export gets going the unit cost will start decreasing, than is the right time to consider them.


I dont think India & Pakistan are threat to each other any longer, although they the "trust" is not there yet. But anyways thats politics.

The reason going for F-16 A/B is that they have better Air to Air capability than air-to-ground capability. The F-16 turned into multirole fighter in real terms with the introduction of later models specially C/D. But C/D models' Air-to-Air capability is as good as that of A/B's, but they do have better Air-to-ground capability. Hence some F-16 blk 15 A/B models. (A/B will probably have pure Air to Air attack capability configuration, avionics & weapons system).

The only aircraft that can be a threat to PAF is only Sukhois. Mirage2000-5 are in the same league, MiG-35 is MiG-29 in TVC along with latest Russian avionics (so in the same league as well). F-18 is a bit superior fighter but comparing aircraft against aircraft is always technical.

Apart from all this, F-16 is available, capable, proven & PAF is well aquainted with it.

However, accoding to the 2010-2015 PAF plan the government will review the purchase of 4/4.5 Gen fighter (this would be in 2010 ... 4 yrs from now). Cant jump onto whether its going to be EF-2000 or Rafale or even JSF.

But right now its:

1. F-16
2. JF-17
3. J-10 [deal not sorted out yet]

4. ERIEYE AEW&Cs (6 units)

 

[swerve]

Actually the 4.5 Gen fighters are available in market but they are not in production except for Rafale (in which Pakistan has shown more interest),

Typhoon is in production. Has been in service (air-air only so far) since December 2005. In April, the 100th was being assembled, & 76 had been delivered. More since then.

F-18E (also mentioned by aprasadi) has been in service for a few years now, though AESA-equipped examples are only now being delivered, & are not yet in service - but they should be before the end of the year.

 

[pshamim]

US finally announced a huge package for Pakistan. It includes F-16 Blk-50/52+ AIM-120 AMRAAMs, Advanced avionics and huge quantity of JDAMs and ammunitions.

Defense Security Cooperation Agency
NEWS RELEASE ​

On the web: http://www.dsca.mil Media/Public Contact: (703) 601-3670
Date: 28 June 2006 Transmittal No. 06-34

Pakistan – Weapons for F-16C/D Block 50/52 Aircraft ​

On 28 June 2006, the Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Pakistan of Weapons for the F-16C/D Block 50/52 Aircraft as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $650 million.
The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of:

Major Defense Equipment (MDE) ​

500 AIM-120C5 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM);
12 AMRAAM training missiles;
240 LAU-129/A Launchers;
200 AIM-9M-8/9 SIDEWINDER missiles;
500 Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) Guidance Kits: GBU-31/38 Guided Bomb Unit (GBU) kits; 1,600 Enhanced-GBU-12/24 GBUs;
800 MK-82 500 pound General Purpose (GP) and MK-84 2,000 pound GP bombs; and
700 BLU-109 2,000 pound with FMU-143 Fuze.
Associated support equipment, software development/integration, modification kits, capability to employ a wide variety of munitions, spares and repair parts, flight test instrumentation, publications and technical documentation, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to ensure full program supportability will also be provided. The estimated cost is $650 million.


Defense Security Cooperation Agency
NEWS RELEASE
On the web: http://www.dsca.mil Media/Public Contact: (703) 601-3670
Date: 28 June 2006 Transmittal No. 06-09
Pakistan – F-16C/D Block 50/52 Aircraft
On 28 June 2005, the Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Pakistan of 36 F-16C/D Block 50/52 Aircraft as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $3 billion.
The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of:
Major Defense Equipment (MDE)
36 F-16C/D Block 50/52 aircraft with either the F100-PW-229 or F110-GE-129 Increased Performance Engines (IPEs) and APG-68(V)9 radars;
7 spare F100-PW-229 IPE or F110-GE-129 IPE engines;
7 spare APG-68(V)9 radar sets;
36 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems;
36 AN/ARC-238 SINCGARS radios with HAVE QUICK I/II;
36 Conformal Fuel Tanks (pairs);
36 Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals;
36 Global Positioning Systems (GPS) and Embedded GPS/Inertial Navigation Systems;
36 APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems;
36 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suites without Digital Radio
Frequency Memory (DRFM) or AN/ALQ-184 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM or AN/ALQ-131 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM or AN/ALQ-187 Advanced Self-Protection Integrated Suites without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-178 Self-Protection Electronic Warfare Suites without DRFM and
1 Unit Level Trainer;
Associated support equipment, software development/integration, modification kits, capability to employ a wide variety of munitions, spares and repair parts, flight test instrumentation, publications and technical documentation, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment,

Defense Security Cooperation Agency
NEWS RELEASE
On the web: http://www.dsca.mil Media/Public Contact: (703) 601-3670
Date: 28 June 2006 Transmittal No. 06-10
Pakistan – F-16A/B Mid-Life Update Modification Kits
On 28 June 2006, the Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Pakistan of 60 F-16A/B Mid-Life Update Modification kits as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $1.3 billion.
The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of 60 F-16A/B Mid-Life Update (MLU) modification and Falcon Star Structural Service Life Enhancement kits consisting of:
APG-68(V)9 with Synthetic Aperture Radar or APG-66(V)2 radar;
Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems;
AN/APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems;
AN/ALE-47 Advanced Countermeasures Dispenser Systems;
Have Quick I/II Radios;
Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals;
SNIPER (formerly known as AN/AAQ-33 PANTERA) targeting pod capability;
Reconnaissance pod capability;
Advanced Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation Units;
MDE included in the MLU modification and structural upgrade kits
21 ALQ-131 Block II Electronic Countermeasures Pods without the Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM) or ALQ-184 Electronic Countermeasures Pods without DRFM;
60 ALQ-213 Electronic Warfare Management Systems;
1 Unit Level Trainer; and
10 APG-68(V)9 spare radar sets.
Also included are radars, modems, receivers, installation, avionics, spare and repair parts, support equipment, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, technical assistance, publications and technical documentation, system drawings, U.S. Government and contractor engineering, and other related logistics elements necessary for full program support. The estimated cost is $1.3 billion.
Defense Security Cooperation Agency
NEWS RELEASE
On the web: http://www.dsca.mil Media/Public Contact: (703) 601-3670
Date: 28 June 2006 Transmittal No. 06-11
Pakistan – F-16 Engine Modifications and Falcon UP/STAR Structural Upgrades
On 28 June 2006, the Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Pakistan of Engine Modifications and Falcon UP/STAR Structural Upgrades as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $151 million.
The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale for modification/overhaul of 14 F100-PW-220E engines, 14 Falcon UP/STAR F-16 structural upgrade kits, de-modification and preparation of 26 aircraft, support equipment, software development/integration, modification kits, spares and repair parts, flight test instrumentation, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to support the program. The estimated cost is $151 million.

 

[SABRE]

Thanks pshamim sir;

I herd the news & went to the site but for some reason it kept on giving "page not found" and still keeps doing the same. So thanks for confirming.

AIM-120C.5 & JDAMs are certainly a good pull by Pakistan. Specially the AMRAAMs. So I guess quantity has been decreased to get the quality.

I herd the range of AIM-120C-5 is abt 110Km, is it the correct range? If it is than it would probably be the most advance BVRAAM in the region.

 

[pshamim]

Thanks pshamim sir;

I herd the news & went to the site but for some reason it kept on giving "page not found" and still keeps doing the same. So thanks for confirming.

AIM-120C.5 & JDAMs are certainly a good pull by Pakistan. Specially the AMRAAMs. So I guess quantity has been decreased to get the quality.

I herd the range of AIM-120C-5 is abt 110Km, is it the correct range? If it is than it would probably be the most advance BVRAAM in the region.

Various reports mention the range of AIM-120 C5 to be 140 km
Pakistan is also buying the APG-66(V)2 radars that are on the current F-16 A/Bs. I think that these radars were tested on JF-17 and now the newer versions are being bought for test on JF-17 Thunder.

 

[Sharif Smuggler]

So in the end, Pakistan will have 96 F-16s at Block 52+ level

I have a question on the Link-16: would it be able to get data from the Erieye? And can it be equipped on other PAF fighters such as the JF-17 to allow them to also data link with the F-16s and Erieye?

 

[pshamim]

So in the end, Pakistan will have 96 F-16s at Block 52+ level

I have a question on the Link-16: would it be able to get data from the Erieye? And can it be equipped on other PAF fighters such as the JF-17 to allow them to also data link with the F-16s and Erieye?

Yes, it can link up and share data with Erieye. JF-17 should have no problem in hosting the system, of course with US help.

 

[BilalK]

Excellent news.

What are the chances of a follow-on order of Block 52+? Is there a possibility that the PAF will eventually try to increase the new built fleet to the originally planned 55 or even 75 in the long run? A second order would be considerably cheaper than the first due to existing infrastructure and support.

 

[tphuang]

Various reports mention the range of AIM-120 C5 to be 140 km
Pakistan is also buying the APG-66(V)2 radars that are on the current F-16 A/Bs. I think that these radars were tested on JF-17 and now the newer versions are being bought for test on JF-17 Thunder.

Yes, it can link up and share data with Erieye. JF-17 should have no problem in hosting the system, of course with US help.

No idea where you got the 140 km from, but I guess if you are talking about the maximum distance that it can travel, then 140 KM is possible. But that would be under the most ideal condition. The more important question is the NEZ.

why would you put APG-66 on JF-17? It's not really designed for JF-17 by any stretch of imagination.

Why would JF-17 needs US help to link up with the system? You can do it far cheaper through CAC.

What are the chances of a follow-on order of Block 52+? Is there a possibility that the PAF will eventually try to increase the new built fleet to the originally planned 55 or even 75 in the long run? A second order would be considerably cheaper than the first due to existing infrastructure and support

Why would you want to? F-16 will no longer be this appealing 5 years from now.

 

[TheDefender]

500 AIM-120C5 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM);
12 AMRAAM training missiles;
240 LAU-129/A Launchers;
200 AIM-9M-8/9 SIDEWINDER missiles;
500 Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) Guidance Kits: GBU-31/38 Guided Bomb Unit (GBU) kits; 1,600 Enhanced-GBU-12/24 GBUs;
800 MK-82 500 pound General Purpose (GP) and MK-84 2,000 pound GP bombs

AAMRAMs are okey caz they have greater range and would give BVR capebility.
i can understand that why Pakistan is getting 200 sidewinders.Paksitan is operating sideinders from the begining and the same kind of missiles are present in the inventry why they want so much of them??
and about the JDAMs and the bombs i think Pakistan is manufacturing these kind of small bombs then why they want to buy them ???

these things were confusing me are there any more harpoons

 

[BilalK]

Why would you want to? F-16 will no longer be this appealing 5 years from now

Well firstly the PAF has even more unappealing aircraft in service. Secondly, Pakistan hardly ever procures 36 aircraft of a new type without having the intention to expand the fleet. For instance our F-6s - we got 60 initially - and we expanded the fleet to 180; same with the F-7s, Mirages, etc. F-16 is a multirole fighter aircraft which will stay potent and capable in South Asia for many years to come. There is little sence in procuring a modest number without expanding it - and simply going for another type.

Besides, I did not specify new-built aircraft either - it is possible that the PAF may pick up used, but good condition C/D frames and give them a CCIP type upgrade.

 

[tphuang]

Well firstly the PAF has even more unappealing aircraft in service. Secondly, Pakistan hardly ever procures 36 aircraft of a new type without having the intention to expand the fleet. For instance our F-6s - we got 60 initially - and we expanded the fleet to 180; same with the F-7s, Mirages, etc. F-16 is a multirole fighter aircraft which will stay potent and capable in South Asia for many years to come. There is little sence in procuring a modest number without expanding it - and simply going for another type.

Besides, I did not specify new-built aircraft either - it is possible that the PAF may pick up used, but good condition C/D frames and give them a CCIP type upgrade.

your fleet of F-16 doesn't seem to be too small after this. And there seems to be a drastic cut in the F-16 procurement numbers over the past few months. Personally, I do think buying and upgrading more existing F-16s is far more likely.

 

[SABRE]

your fleet of F-16 doesn't seem to be too small after this.

36 in service+36 more + 2 Upgraded F-16s of USAF (inducted earlier this year)= 74 F-16s. Its not too small but its not too big either.

And there seems to be a drastic cut in the F-16 procurement numbers over the past few months.

Original plan was to have about 110 to 115 F-16s (including the ones in service), & now its 74. Cutting down abt "41" F-16s. Thats abt 2 sqdns.

But this is not only happening in Pakistan. Even other countries are not going for big numbers of F-16s.

Personally, I do think buying and upgrading more existing F-16s is far more likely.

do u mean buying more 2nd hand F-16 A/Bs & upgrading them?? This is most likely. Blk 15A/B have better A2A capability & they can be purely used for air defence/air superiority.

 

[Aussie Digger]

36 in service+36 more + 2 Upgraded F-16s of USAF (inducted earlier this year)= 74 F-16s. Its not too small but its not too big either.



Original plan was to have about 110 to 115 F-16s (including the ones in service), & now its 74. Cutting down abt "41" F-16s. Thats abt 2 sqdns.

But this is not only happening in Pakistan. Even other countries are not going for big numbers of F-16s.



do u mean buying more 2nd hand F-16 A/Bs & upgrading them?? This is most likely. Blk 15A/B have better A2A capability & they can be purely used for air defence/air superiority.

The announcements also have PAF acquiring a number of "used" USAF aircraft. The total number of upgrade kits being purchased is 60 for existing PAF fighter and the additional "second hand fighter" purchase.

Adding the 36 new-build fighters gives a figure of 96 aircraft, meaning all of the PAF F-16 fleet will be of Block 52 configuration or equivalent. A pretty sweet deal really.

96 aircraft will be enough to equip 4x fighter Squadrons plus the training units and developmental/attrition aircraft.

Added to the Erieye and advanced weapons purchases, plus it's other fighter projects, PAF is developing a truly capable force...