Pakistan Air Force [PAF] News and Discussions

[BilalK]

The PAF is circling itself on three between 2010 and 2019; the PAF fleet will consist of J-10s, F-16s, and JF-17. With such a fleet there is no need for a fighter like Su-27/30, MiG-29, or Gripen; nor does Pakistan has that kind of money to buy and maintain so many different types of fighters. Any fourth fighter would likely be the Mirage V and ROSE-I/II/III series due to its existing capability to use BVRs (Mirage ROSE-I) as well as PGMs (Mirage ROSE-II/IIIs) and Exocet (Mirage Vs).

The PAF wants to ensure that it operates the least types of aircraft as possible and use aircraft from reliable sources; thus and it is highly unlikely that PAF would procure a Russian fighter. In fact, credible sources on various forums have reported that the PAF is considering to change the JF-17's engine to either a Chinese or European one.

The meat of the PAF will be the JF-17 and a lot of the PAF's finances will be going into making the JF-17 as good as possible and developing a new model which would serve it in the 2030s and 2040s. If I was the PAF I would be allocating funds to develop this JF-17 concept (link) and get this JF-17 replacement fighter in production by 2025.

As for procurement of fighters like EF-2000 or Rafale, there are no plans to induct those fighters by 2019; if the PAF were to procure either of the above mentioned aircraft, it would likely be done so during the 2020s. However by that time the Chinese would have come up with a further developed J-10, which the PAF would likely opt due to logistical and political reasons.

In my opinion the PAF should start thinking long term and start going into more ambitious projects like the JF-17 concept I linked above. Ideally the current fleet of JF-17s being bought should mostly be replaced by 2030 (15-20 years of service). Fighters like F-16A/B MLU, F-16C/D Block-52 and J-10 should be replaced with EF/Rafale/Super-J-10 and JXX/JSF by 2035.

 

[SABRE]

I wouldnt debate on the time period (i.e. 2010-2015 or 2010-2019/20) But yest for the time being its three aircrafts:

1. F-16 A/B/C/D
2. J-17
3. J/F-10 (deal still materialize though)

Yes Mirage-V may stay, not only the because of the reasons you have mentioned above, but also because it is a maritime aircraft & currently there seems to be no hint on inducting a replacement for Mirage-V. Although JH-7 /FBC-1 seems like an option.

For the AEW&C System its Erieye on SAAB-2000 & PAF is inducting more C-130H/J.

With these inductions PAF will not have enough resources left to induct a 4th aircraft for some time and niether does PAF want to hurry things here. PAF is interested in a 4th Generation fighter (i.e. Rafale, Ef-2000) but the cost is too high at the moment (although France is offering Rafale at $ 35Million per unit compared to $70 Million per unit of EF-2000). Once the cost goes down and PAF/Pakistan feel like its time to induct the 4th gen fighter it will go ahead with the purchase. For this reason, PAF is purchasing only 2 sqdns of J/F-10, so it doesnt have much to maintain.

 

[aaaditya]

I wouldnt debate on the time period (i.e. 2010-2015 or 2010-2019/20) But yest for the time being its three aircrafts:

1. F-16 A/B/C/D
2. J-17
3. J/F-10 (deal still materialize though)

Yes Mirage-V may stay, not only the because of the reasons you have mentioned above, but also because it is a maritime aircraft & currently there seems to be no hint on inducting a replacement for Mirage-V. Although JH-7 /FBC-1 seems like an option.

For the AEW&C System its Erieye on SAAB-2000 & PAF is inducting more C-130H/J.

With these inductions PAF will not have enough resources left to induct a 4th aircraft for some time and niether does PAF want to hurry things here. PAF is interested in a 4th Generation fighter (i.e. Rafale, Ef-2000) but the cost is too high at the moment (although France is offering Rafale at $ 35Million per unit compared to $70 Million per unit of EF-2000). Once the cost goes down and PAF/Pakistan feel like its time to induct the 4th gen fighter it will go ahead with the purchase. For this reason, PAF is purchasing only 2 sqdns of J/F-10, so it doesnt have much to maintain.

rafale is being offered for no less than 6o million per aircraft in its present state(without aesa).

by the way what is the role of pakistani airforce mirage3 ?

i remember reading that these mirage3's are also used for maritime strike roles,is it true?

and by the way eads is reducing the price of the ef2000 by as much as 15% (as offered to turkey and india ,I believe) and also the ef2000 with all its gadgets costs around 90million dollars per aircraft.(including aesa)

 

[SABRE]

rafale is being offered for no less than 6o million per aircraft in its present state(without aesa).

I herd the price on BBC .. or may be I am confused between 35 million "Dollar" & 35 million "pounds". I think I am...lol.

by the way what is the role of pakistani airforce mirage3 ?

It was front line multirole fighter from early 1960s to 1980 before F-16s were inducted. Ast this moment its 2ndry fighter to F-16s. They have strike and air defence role.

i remember reading that these mirage3's are also used for maritime strike roles,is it true?

No, thats mirage-5 that is maritime strike fighter. Same as Mirage-3 though. Just different avionics & weapon systems to carry anti-ship bombs, missile etc. In 2005 few of them were experimented with BVR system with the help of French company SEGAM. The aircraft could carry MICA, but so far there have been no feedbacks.

Mirage-3 probably have not been part of the experimental upgrade cause They will be 1st to retire with the induction of JF-17. The reason for Mirage-5 being upgraded to ROSE-III is probably cause no other Maritime Strike Aircraft option is available at the moment. (& No interest have been shown by the officials on JH-7/FBC-1).

and by the way eads is reducing the price of the ef2000 by as much as 15% (as offered to turkey and india ,I believe) and also the ef2000 with all its gadgets costs around 90million dollars per aircraft.(including aesa)

I wont debate on the price, but I saw interview of one of the official involved in EF-2000 project, on some European channel (with sub-titles) recently & he said the price of fully equiped EF-2000 is $70Million.

 

[SABRE]

gunsmoke; I am doing nothing but scratching my head. (Plus learn to write articles and essays, this is giving me headache)

1st of all this is your self made news. No links & no proofs.

2ndly it is roumered that Ukrain did offer "20" Su-27s to PAF but the offer was turned down.

For your information. Pakistan did not buy Tanks from Russia. It bought 700 units of T-80 (T-80U/T-80UD) Tanks from Ukrain.

On the MiG-29 engine issue, which btw is called RD-93, China is already in final stages of development of its replacement. The Chinese replacement engine is called WS-13. These would be ready way before RD-93 engines in Chinese stock run out.

Abt India being 2nd largest Russian buyer while China being 1st kinda doesnt make sense. China's main purchases from Russia are in the field of air defence i.e. Fighter Aircrafts (Su-27, Su-30), Cargo aircrafts (i.e. IL-76)
but India buys Tanks (i.e. T-90 - and T-72s in the past), aircrafts (i.e. Su-30MKI, MiG-29/21/25/27 etc), Naval Ships (aircraft careers, Kilo submarines etc) & Indians are buing even more hardware. Seems like India is the biggest ever buyer of Soviet/Russian technology.

The Russians are now approaching the world with bussiness attitude. Its approach towards Pakistan is slow but they are approaching, by offering lift Helicopters. But India being larger and bigger buyer, is more importent. Recently India has shown more interest in Russian MiG-29/35TVC for its MRCA, than it has on F-18. The have officialy asked Russia/MiG Corp. to send them "Rep" on the MRCA offer.

I am sorry to say, but your news, report or essay is of no relevance and importence, unless proven by some credible source. You have probably just wasted your time and energy.

 

[SABRE]

Sir, you give me a credible link something that says china never purchased tanks, missiles and whatnot from Russia. Sir your pointing at me for giving you no prove inresponse you should have given me some links to prove what you are trying to tell. China is the biggest Military purchaser of Russian equiptment for its Armed Forces. Don't compare Chinese economy to Indian economy. Even the computer you are using is made in China :lol3. Sir give me credible link that says Pakistan officially turned down ukrainian offer. Please subscribe to Janes defense if you don't have money i will pay by credit card for you as a paid member you will get a lot of information and that is credible information regarding Pakistans's purchase of Tanks from Russia. You said it yourself :lol3 ""The Russians are now approaching the world with bussiness attitude"", so if Russia is getting 200 + million dollars for selling RD-33 engines it pisses on India for crying don't sell...Russia to India "Why did you buy F-18s" now i can sell RD-33:daz. Correction China manufactures SU27 under license in China they got ToT.The news Russian defence Minister Igor Sergeyev said that during his recent visit to Beijing he held negotiations on sale of the Su-33 fighters to China, which China already accepted to counter India and US is true a credible now just that you don't like what i've posted truely its your punishment to search for this news yourself i will give links to others personally if i want to. You must now agree with me that China keeps everything secret i am sure you must have rejected the development of J-10 which has now turned into reality. Are you seriously saying that China never bought a single ship-Sub from Russia?Are you out of your mind China has better relationships with Russia along with India. See i told you you mentioned in you post 'seems' like which only seems to you specifically again no credible info from you. With doubts in you small mind open your eyes India is going for the purchase of F-18s which has better radar then MIG 29s. Sir An offer like this India never kicks if it turned down F-18s offer in late future US won't offer JSF and that India don't want to see at all.
I am sorry sir instead of in your nonsense scratch ass reply you have not given me a credible answer and links to be appreciated and wasted your eye balls just to reply wasting your finger energy. Unlike you i was drinking a rich glass of milk and cookies didn't waste a bit of enery:lol3 i'm sorry why did you scratch you head oh i know typical bald headed:finger . Oh one more thing China developed super cruise missile based on Russian super cruise missiles that it purchased from Russia. Are you aware of Peace Mission Exercises that took place in 2005?Biggest Military excercises of China-Russia combined. Search for topic you will find it. China has become the largest buyer of defense equipment in the world, with purchases totaling US$10.4 billion from 2001 to 2004, with Russia being the main supplier. (Russia’s state unitary enterprise “Uralvagonzavod,” the country’s top battle tank producer, on Sunday signed a production deal with Pakistan, a day after the country’s Foreign Minister, Khurshid Mahmud Kasuri, held talks with his Russian counterpart Sergei Lavrov, the Pakistan Times newspaper reports.

The ’tank production’ deal between the Uralvagonzavod plant and Islamabad was signed on the sidelines of the “UralArmsExpo” exhibition in Nizhny Tagil in the Sverdlovsk region.

“We can say that tank-production contracts between Uralvagonzavod and Pakistan have been clinched,” the director of the Union of Regional Defence Industry, Viktor Batuyev, was quoted as saying by the agency without giving any details.

After his talks with Lavrov yesterday, Kasuri said both Moscow and Islamabad had agreed to upgrade their bilateral relations, while the Russian Foreign Minister said no concrete defense cooperation plans were discussed by them.

Russian news agencies reported that Pakistan would receive a large batch of modern T-90S battle tanks. A short time ago, Uralvagonzavod supplied 300 such tanks to India — Pakistan’s main rival in the Hindustan region.) :finger

gunsmoke; perhaps ypu felt from my post that I was being harsh, but thats the impression I give while in reality I not bashing any one. However, I can only say you are at the wrong place. This is not similar to the forums you usually hang out & play at. Perhaps you should have taken some time to go through rules of the forum here. & you should have also taken some time out to see the atttitude of the people around here. We dont show each other middle fingers & insult each other, even if its a heated up discussion between an Indian and a Pakistani. I'll let the mods & admin take further notic of your post & attitude. My advice is you take a hike.

As for the me providing the link, there is no need. You'll find hundreds of threads here, started by different ppl on what I said. Plus most of it is well known.

India has been buying Soviet/Russian equipement since 1950s, while China stopped buying from USSR from late 1970s. China-Russia cooperation only restarted in 1991-92.

As for Pakistan-Russia cooperation. According to Russian media, Pakistan has 200 Russian T-90s. Now Have u ever come across a Russian T-90 in Pakistan? The Russian said that in 2001, & its 2006. I still see no Russian T-90 here. It doesnt take that long to build and induct 200 tanks.

 

[old faithful]

gunsmoke,your comments and input are welcome,your bad manners and conduct are not. I visit the pakistan defence forum (invision board) to check on info on JF17. Maybe you should leave your insults on that forum. Also nothing ,on that forum regarding Ukrainian SU27 sales, and there seem to be some very well informed people on that site,along with all the kidds.

 

[Big-E]

gunsmoke; perhaps ypu felt from my post that I was being harsh, but thats the impression I give while in reality I not bashing any one. However, I can only say you are at the wrong place. This is not similar to the forums you usually hang out & play at. Perhaps you should have taken some time to go through rules of the forum here. & you should have also taken some time out to see the atttitude of the people around here. We dont show each other middle fingers & insult each other, even if its a heated up discussion between an Indian and a Pakistani. I'll let the mods & admin take further notic of your post & attitude. My advice is you take a hike.

As for the me providing the link, there is no need. You'll find hundreds of threads here, started by different ppl on what I said. Plus most of it is well known.

Who the heck are you talking to I went back three months in this thread and have yet to see this post and found no member in the list under the name gunsmoke.

 

[SABRE]

Who the heck are you talking to I went back three months in this thread and have yet to see this post and found no member in the list under the name gunsmoke.

lol ... The guy has been banned and the posts have been deleted. you can read his last post in my above reply (quoted).

 

[BilalK]

Saab confirms deal with Pakistan for Erieye radar

Robert Hewson Editor Jane's Air Launched Weapons
Linköping, Sweden

Sweden's deal to sell the Erieye airborne surveillance system to Pakistan is "soon to be official", a Saab representative has told Jane's. The formal contract has already been signed and only the last few legal papers need to be approved, which Saab says will take place "in one or two weeks". This move will seal the SEK8.3 billion (USD1.05 billion) Erieye order for the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) announced in October 2005, after several years of negotiation.

Saab confirmed that the PAF will acquire six Saab 2000s, each fitted with the Erieye phased-array radar. The Erieye is soon to be a Saab product, following the 12 June announcement that Saab AB would acquire Ericsson Microwave Systems (EMW).

This merger will be completed by September. Previously, EMW had a one-third share of the Pakistan project, but the programme will now be entirely controlled by Saab. The value of the contract has not changed, according to Saab.

The Saab 2000s will be configured with a number of onboard operators' stations (probably five), to undertake the airborne command and control (C2) role. The six aircraft will be former regional airliners, 30 of which are currently owned by Saab Aircraft Leasing (SAL). SAL will recover the Saab 2000s at the end of their current leases and return them to Linköping for conversion.

Saab and Ericsson sources told Jane's that the first Erieye aircraft for Pakistan will fly in about 18 months. However, the addition of the dorsal radar demands several modifications. For example, the tail area has to be increased to provide additional control. Previously, Saab sources have said that the entire process of modification, flight trials and qualification for a Saab 2000 Erieye platform would take about 43 months from the signing of a contract. While the aircraft, radar and most onboard systems (including the operators' stations) are supplied by Sweden, some mission equipment, such as the 'identification friend or foe' and secure communications gear, will be acquired elsewhere, largely using commercial-off-the-shelf sources. It is not clear if the PAF aircraft will be fitted with additional electronic surveillance and self-defence systems, but this is likely. Saab will assist in the integration of the Erieye system into Pakistan's existing air defence C2 network, but it will not be expanding or enhancing that network beyond what is required to accommodate the Erieyes.

Sweden now has to address the issue of technology security and how to control access to the advanced Erieye radar. Concerns have already been expressed that Pakistan's strong links with China could provide invaluable insight for Chinese engineers into the Erieye's highly sensitive active phased-array design. China already appears to have built and tested a system that outwardly resembles the Erieye radar in almost every way - and is now flying it on Shaanxi Y-8 testbeds. Ericsson is aware of the existence of these "Chinese copies" and is categoric in its assurances that China has had no access to its technology at any time.

Saab says that security issues regarding the Erieye in Pakistan will be covered in a government-to-government agreement. Saab also notes that a technology transfer programme with Pakistan has been discussed, but as a separate arrangement and not as part of any offset agreement.
================
================
6 Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C systems w/first one flying in about 18-19 months.

Saab/Ericsson/Swedish engineers will help integrate the aircraft into the PAF's air defence/command system.

Sweden is strict about Chinese access to the system - Pakistan cannot let China touch it at any time.

Technology transfer has also been discussed, and is part of a seperate deal.

 

[adsH]

Technology transfer has also been discussed, and is part of a seperate deal.

The Tech development would probably be in the areas of either software development for collaborative development to expand the capabilities fo the existing system. Most of the current Hardware developed for the system may be COTS

 

[BilalK]

I believe the technology transfer includes integration on other aircraft - if the PAF ever were to go that route. Other things would include possible C3I or C4I integration, datalinking between fighters and air defence, etc.

 

[SABRE]

Dnt want to start a fuss here & I may also be wrong, as I might not have herd the news clearly, but some time ago Prime Minister said some thing about developing the Radar System of AEW&C in Pakistan.

 

[SABRE]

Here is the news from SAAB's own website:

Saab contract for Surveillance System to Pakistan becomes effective

[2006-06-22 7:55]

Saab signed a contract in October 2005 to supply an airborne Surveillance System for Pakistan to the value of 8,3 billion SEK. The last outstanding conditions have now been finalized and the contract becomes effective immediately.

"This is a very important order for Saab and it confirms our strong position in the world regarding airborne surveillance systems. We look forward to working with our customer in Pakistan", says Saab CEO Åke Svensson,

This surveillance system will, together with existing ground based radars, provide border security and contribute to the monitoring of natural disasters and consequent search and rescue operations.

The airborne surveillance system includes Saab 2000 turboprop aircraft equipped with Ericsson Microwave Systems airborne radar system ERIEYE.

Two third of the order value is for Saab and one third for Ericsson Microwave Systems, which is, after the Saab acquisition, expected to be a part of Saab in September this year.

This means that Saab will book this order in second quarter of 2006.

Source: SAAB
Link: http://www.saabgroup.com/us/MediaRelations/Pressreleases/pressrelease.htm?PressreleaseId=134019​

​

 

[SABRE]

SAAB recognizes ERIEYE sale to Pakistan as "IMPORTENT"

Important order secured


In October 2005 Saab signed a contract to supply an airborne Surveillance System for Pakistan to the value of 8.3 billion SEK. The last outstanding conditions have now been finalized and the contract has become effective.

2006-06-22 |


“This is a very important order for Saab and it confirms our strong position on the world market regarding airborne surveillance systems. For a number of years we have been engaged in negotiations with Pakistan for an airborne surveillance system. The system will be used for surveillance, command and control in order to counter the effects of future crises and catastrophes,” says Saab CEO Åke Svensson.


“The effectivity of this contract is a vitally important step in establishing Saabs credentials in the Airborne Surveillance Market,” says Ian McNamee, Group Senior Vice President, International Relations and Business Improvement. “There are great market opportunities for these systems around the world and this contract will act as a springboard to many of them. The combination of the Saab 2000 and the EYRIE radar system offers a cost effective solution for border security, air policing and disaster relief.” McNamee continues.


The airborne surveillance system includes Saab 2000 turboprop aircraft equipped with Ericsson Microwave Systems airborne radar system ERIEYE™. Two third of the order value is for Saab and one third for Ericsson Microwave Systems, witch is, after the Saab acquisition, expected to be a part of Saab in September 2006.


Cost effective platform

Based on Swedish defense technology, Saab Surveillance System is the most modern tactical surveillance system of today. It enables integration with any existing environment, offering great operational flexibility aiming at Superior Situation Awareness.


The Saab 2000 ERIEYE™ AEW&C combines a modern turboprop aircraft with an advanced technology sensor system to provide a highly capable yet cost effective surveillance platform. The primary role of the Saab 2000 ERIEYE™ AEW&C is to detect and track targets. The Saab 2000 aircraft is able to in incorporate high speed dash with low speed loitering capability, with inherent fuel effi ciency that meets demanding AEW&C requirements for performing a 180 degree turn in less than 30 seconds with an endurance of more than 9 hours.


The Saab Surveillance System solves both national and international interoperability issues, such as search & rescue operations, surveillance and control of national borders and economic zones and detection of illegal activities.

Saab Surveillance System, the most modern surveillance system of today:

• Provides Superior Situation Awareness.

• Provides great Tactical Mobility and Short Reaction Times.

• The most suitable platform with excellent Hot and High performance and 180 degree turn capability in less than 30 seconds.

• Integrates with the Existing Systems and improves Decision Support.

• Includes comprehensive selectable logistics support.

• Offers the most cost effective Surveillance System on the market today.

Source: SAAB
Link: http://www.saabgroup.com/en/MediaRelations/News/2006/important_order_secured.htm

 

[WAR]

SAAB Vs Phalcon

How superior SAAB system is with Israeli Phalcon system contracted to India sometimes back?

Secondly, is there any connection with the recent purchase of Bombardier by PIA with the recent contract with SAAB? Though they both are separate deals, but insiders are hell-bent upon making some sort of a connection.

Any info in this regard???

 

[gf0012-aust]

How superior SAAB system is with Israeli Phalcon system contracted to India sometimes back?

They're different systems.

However there are things of note to consider.

• larger platforms have larger capacity for disparate and more powerful systems
• larger platforms have larger on board power systems - power = processing power issuess = capability = systems projection
• larger platforms usually have longer range, and if range is not an issues, better loiter times. better loiter times = persistence

generally speaking, a larger platform will provide better capability due to considerations like the above.

 

[BilalK]

Smaller platforms have their advantages too;

Lower maintenance and relatively low operating costs compared to larger platforms.

You could procure greater numbers for the same price - 6 AEW&C for PAF and 3 AWACS for IAF for about 1-1.1bn USD.

Suits Pakistan's requirements fairly well; wishes to keep more planes in the air - so if you lose one, you have 5 left. Full coverage of the country and surrounding borders, etc.

 

[SABRE]

Smaller platforms have their advantages too;

Lower maintenance and relatively low operating costs compared to larger platforms.

You could procure greater numbers for the same price - 6 AEW&C for PAF and 3 AWACS for IAF for about 1-1.1bn USD.

Suits Pakistan's requirements fairly well; wishes to keep more planes in the air - so if you lose one, you have 5 left. Full coverage of the country and surrounding borders, etc.

Bilal; what war wanted to know was "superiority in terms of performance" not in terms of "cost effectiveness."

Again in terms of "cost effectiveness" on maintenance, yes ERIEYE-SAAB2000 will have low maintenance but Pakistan will have to maintane 6 of these systems, while India may have high cost of maintenance but they only have 3 to 4 of these systems to maintain.


War; AFAIK there is going to be a big difference between the Phalcon System Israel uses & the one it is going to sell to India. The Israeli Phalcon System, the whole package which Israel uses, is pretty unique, interesting & pretty superior to ERIEYE (in terms of what gf stated above). The whole System (including the aircraft) which Israel uses is considered one of the most powerful systems in the world.

The Israeli Phalcon is based on Boeing 707, while India is going to mount it on much smaller IL-76 Cargo aircraft. The radar on Israeli phalcon is installed in the nose section (this is pretty unique, never seen it any where else), while India is going to have traditional Rotodome.


Pic (Israeli Phalcon):

Plus, I read on some Israeli site that major part of the deal is Radar & not all the electronic equipement (extra-features I guess) is being sold to India.



Unless & untill not all the specs of Indian Phalcon's are released you cant really say whether Pakistani ERIEYE is superior or IAF Phalcon (this depending on features), but on the basic level Phalcon is superior (in terms of what gf posted above).

 

[kams]

War; AFAIK there is going to be a big difference between the Phalcon System Israel uses & the one it is going to sell to India. The Israeli Phalcon System, the whole package which Israel uses, is pretty unique, interesting & pretty superior to ERIEYE (in terms of what gf stated above). The whole System (including the aircraft) which Israel uses is considered one of the most powerful systems in the world.

The Israeli Phalcon is based on Boeing 707, while India is going to mount it on much smaller IL-76 Cargo aircraft. The radar on Israeli phalcon is installed in the nose section (this is pretty unique, never seen it any where else), while India is going to have traditional Rotodome.


Pic (Israeli Phalcon):

Plus, I read on some Israeli site that major part of the deal is Radar & not all the electronic equipement (extra-features I guess) is being sold to India.



Unless & untill not all the specs of Indian Phalcon's are released you cant really say whether Pakistani ERIEYE is superior or IAF Phalcon (this depending on features), but on the basic level Phalcon is superior (in terms of what gf posted above).

Sabre, do you have any links to news source saying that Phalcon being supplied to India will not have AESA, but traditional Rotodome? You are also saying that major part of deal is radar in the next sentence. So ias claimed by you, the Radar is not the original Israeli one, major electronics are missing and IL-76 is very inferior to Boeing 707, then what did the Indian buy??

I could not finf any reference to a Phalcon with normal Rotodome. Could some one confirm the existence of the same?