Pakistan Air Force [PAF] News and Discussions

[fieldmarshal]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

What it actually means is that the MLU will be carried out on these birds at Kamrah. So PAC will purchase the kits from LM and other sources as they might go for grifo 2000 as our current fleet has grifo 2000.
So all in all this is very good news and it gives PAF a qunatum boost in capability in a matter of months.

 

[aaaditya]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

i dont know if this article has been posted on this forum or not .
if not then iam sure you all will be very interested.
it is the analysis of pakistani airforce by the pakistani airchief marshal kaleem sadat on the janes.

quite interesting and very informative.

 

[Elite-Pilot]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

hmmm......

It states that Gripen and Chinese aircrafts are really looked into deeply by the PAF, Sweden is not a very reliable ally to have especially to Pakistan. I dont think we should look towards them for our future needs. The Erieye deal went thorugh way to slow. There is one thing i dont understand, we are the leading line fo defence against the WOT (war on terror) and our needs were to be fulfilled by the E-3c sentry. However, America was not willing to provide it to us.

we earned the F-16's that we are getting, by helping America on the WOT. So why is America willing to provide very potent aircrafts to India?(according to my info) is it because of their complains of Pakistan being amongst the best countries with the F-16? can anyone answer these questions, someone who is comparable to a expert,SABRE,WEBMASTER are you willing to provide me with this information?

WOW, isnt this wonderful, just read that they are offered EURO TYPHOON!!!! ask me for the source i will Private message you the freakin link!Hopefully this news will get Kaleem Sadaat or PM, PRESIDENT thinking properly!

 

[webmaster]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Post the news here and link it as well. We want to see who was offered typhoon.

I am no expert.

 

[Elite-Pilot]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

http://www.financialexpress.com/fe_full_story.php?content_id=109591

INDIA has been offered the eurofighter making it the 5th bidder.

 

[webmaster]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

And why are you discussing Indian Air Force procurements in Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions thread?

As long as EADS do not confirm that they have offered Eurofighter to India, I would take the news with a pinch of salt. (EADS doesn't say anything about it offering EF to India, nor does western press and only media that we see cooking this story is Indian media. Something doesn't sound right... it would be nice to get confirmation from the company "said to offer eurofighter to India" confirms it.)

Also, read this:

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=50733&postcount=5

This thread needs some rest time and you too, since we are losing focus here.

 

[fieldmarshal]

Two F-16s reaching this week

Two F-16s reaching this week


By Anwar Iqbal http://dawn.com/2005/11/28/top4.htm
WASHINGTON, Nov 27: Two F-16 fighter jets will be flown to Pakistan this week as part of a deal between Washington and Islamabad while a P-3C Orion aircraft has already been delivered to the Pakistan Navy, US sources told Dawn.

A senior staffer at the Congressional Arms Committee said the US Congress has already finalized the deal and the planes are ready to be flown to Pakistan.

In July, the US agreed to deliver at least two F-16s to Pakistan by November while the rest of the planes were to be delivered in small batches.

Pakistan was expected to buy 75 F-16s from the US at a cost of $3-4 billion. Of these, 50 were new F-16C/D Falcon while 25 were old but upgraded versions of the aircraft. The deal included upgrading of the 30 F-16s Pakistan received in the 1980s.

But earlier this month, Pakistan and the United States reached an understanding, allowing Islamabad to temporarily delay the deal at least until April next year. The Bush Administration also delayed an earlier decision to seek Congressional approval for the proposed deal till at least the next session.

The two planes, now being flown to Islamabad, are upgraded versions of the old aircraft that Pakistan had originally received in the 1980s and will be added to the existing fleet of more than 30 F-16s.

The decision to delay the larger F-16 deal was finalized at a meeting between Ambassador Jehangir Karamat and US Assistant Secretary of State Christina Rocca in Washington on Nov 7.

Ambassador Karamat later told Dawn the deal was going to cost Pakistan as much as $4 billion and “we felt that at this stage we need that money for the earthquake victimsâ€.

P-3C ORION: The US also has delivered the first of eight P-3C Orion aircraft to the Pakistan Navy, ahead of its scheduled 2006 delivery date.

The jets will improve command-and-control capabilities of the Pakistani Navy.

 

[webmaster]

Re: Two F-16s reaching this week

Yay! Big Deal!

Merging with Pak AF news and discussion thread.

 

[EthanXH58]

P.A.F Modernization after the Earhquake

P.A.F was well on it's way to an ambitious modernization program after over a decade of stagnation and inability to acquire truly modern platforms. Prior to the earthquake P.A.F had four major projects underway.

1. Production and acquisition of 150 JF-17 fighter in Pakistan
2. Production and acquisition of 100 K-8 Khartoum Jet trainers
3. Acquisition of Swedish Erieye AWACS system
4. Acquisition of 75 Block 50/52 F-16 C/D fighters and 11 older Block 15 F-16 A/B fighters.

There was even talk of acquiring a second 4th generation platform from a second source and Jas 39 Grippen and Mirage-2000 were front runners in this category.

However, since the October earthquake all this has changed. President Musharraf has announced the delay in the acquisition of the entire F-16 deal until a later period. Sources have quoted this time period to be 2011. However, in 2011 there will be a new U.S. administration and I think it is reasonable to assume that the U.S. political environment by then may not be very friendly towards Pakistan. Therefore the whole deal can be questioned.

Personally I think it would be good if Pakistan does not goes forward with the acquisition of the F-16 fighter jets. U.S. has proven itself to be an unreliable ally. This happened in 1965 and again in 1990.

The best thing for Pakistan would be to negotiate a deal with France for the acquisition of 75+ Mirage-2000-9 series fighter jets. PAF has been eyeing this platform for quite some time. France is desperate to sell fighters and Pakistan already has a well established defense relationship with France. I believe a contract for co production of these fighter aircraft with a certain amount of transfer of technology should be explored. Advantage of this approach is self explanatory.

More than anything if Pakistan is able to receive a complete transfer of technology to produce MP-53-2 Jet engines under license in Pakistan it would be great help even to the JF-17 fighter jet project. Currently Pakistan is set to produce 8 JF-17s in 2006 and another 8 in 2007. As of 2008 JF-17 project will enter FRP phase at which it is expected the Pakistan will produce JF-17 at a rate of 20 jets per year. This means that by 2010 Pakistan will possess 56 JF-17s. The first 50 JF-17s will be equipped with Chinese avionics. Western avionics will not be an option well until 2010. If the Mirage-2000-9 deal can go through with a certain transfer of technology then perhaps some of it could find it’s way into JF-17 in the form of a less capable version of RDY-2 radar on JF-17 (I think there is such an option in existence).

Another benefit could be the retrofitting of the JF-17 with MP-53-2 jet engine. The current RD-93 is a capable jet engine but it has two flaws. First flaw is that it is Russian and I don’t need to explain why this could be a problem for Pakistan in exports and in time of conflict. Second, It leaves a heavy smoke trail behind it, which is a bid disadvantage in dog fights. The advantage of MP-53-2 jet engine being retrofitted onto the JF-17 could be the following.

1. Pakistan would not have to rely on a foreign supplier
2. Commonality between the two platforms, hence great advantage in terms of logistical support and maintenance.

 

[moinanwer]

Re: P.A.F Modernization after the Earhquake

Prior to the earthquake P.A.F had four major projects underway.

1. Production and acquisition of 150 JF-17 fighter in Pakistan
2. Production and acquisition of 100 K-8 Khartoum Jet trainers
3. Acquisition of Swedish Erieye AWACS system
4. Acquisition of 75 Block 50/52 F-16 C/D fighters and 11 older Block 15 F-16 A/B fighters.

There was even talk of acquiring a second 4th generation platform from a second source and Jas 39 Grippen and Mirage-2000 were front runners in this category.

PAF Should GO for
150 JF-17.
50 K-8 rather than 100.
All 6 Erieye.
and
25+ used F-16 for now at the minium.

and we also need helo in all three sizes large(Like chinook), medium(some thing like Mi-17) and small (Bell).

As for Mirage 2000 or Gripen both are in same class, as is F-16, a debatable approach but which is already in practise by Turkey, Tiawan and probably by Greece.

 

[EthanXH58]

Re: P.A.F Modernization after the Earhquake

K-8 jet trainer has been in somewhat of a doldrum status. It was developed jointly in the late 80s with China. Pakistan received it's first batch of 6 jet trainers in 1994 and then a second batch of another 6 in 2003.

On 30-June-2005, P.A.F placed an order for 27 K-8s. However, I am not sure if these are to produced in Pakistan or are going to be manufactured in China.

It seems overall PAF is moving on with it's overall plans for modernization with the acception of the F-16s deal.

I dont think that PAF should go for 150 JF-17s only as this leaves still a large number of aircraft to be replaced in PAFs fleet. I think we may see JF-17s in PAF service rise to as high as 250. We have already seen JF-17 redesigned in the 4th prototype. Dont be surprised if the JF-17s being produced after the initial batch of 50 fighters are of a more evolved design.

 

[aaaditya]

Re: P.A.F Modernization after the Earhquake

P.A.F was well on it's way to an ambitious modernization program after over a decade of stagnation and inability to acquire truly modern platforms. Prior to the earthquake P.A.F had four major projects underway.

1. Production and acquisition of 150 JF-17 fighter in Pakistan
2. Production and acquisition of 100 K-8 Khartoum Jet trainers
3. Acquisition of Swedish Erieye AWACS system
4. Acquisition of 75 Block 50/52 F-16 C/D fighters and 11 older Block 15 F-16 A/B fighters.

There was even talk of acquiring a second 4th generation platform from a second source and Jas 39 Grippen and Mirage-2000 were front runners in this category.

However, since the October earthquake all this has changed. President Musharraf has announced the delay in the acquisition of the entire F-16 deal until a later period. Sources have quoted this time period to be 2011. However, in 2011 there will be a new U.S. administration and I think it is reasonable to assume that the U.S. political environment by then may not be very friendly towards Pakistan. Therefore the whole deal can be questioned.

Personally I think it would be good if Pakistan does not goes forward with the acquisition of the F-16 fighter jets. U.S. has proven itself to be an unreliable ally. This happened in 1965 and again in 1990.

The best thing for Pakistan would be to negotiate a deal with France for the acquisition of 75+ Mirage-2000-9 series fighter jets. PAF has been eyeing this platform for quite some time. France is desperate to sell fighters and Pakistan already has a well established defense relationship with France. I believe a contract for co production of these fighter aircraft with a certain amount of transfer of technology should be explored. Advantage of this approach is self explanatory.

More than anything if Pakistan is able to receive a complete transfer of technology to produce MP-53-2 Jet engines under license in Pakistan it would be great help even to the JF-17 fighter jet project. Currently Pakistan is set to produce 8 JF-17s in 2006 and another 8 in 2007. As of 2008 JF-17 project will enter FRP phase at which it is expected the Pakistan will produce JF-17 at a rate of 20 jets per year. This means that by 2010 Pakistan will possess 56 JF-17s. The first 50 JF-17s will be equipped with Chinese avionics. Western avionics will not be an option well until 2010. If the Mirage-2000-9 deal can go through with a certain transfer of technology then perhaps some of it could find it’s way into JF-17 in the form of a less capable version of RDY-2 radar on JF-17 (I think there is such an option in existence).

Another benefit could be the retrofitting of the JF-17 with MP-53-2 jet engine. The current RD-93 is a capable jet engine but it has two flaws. First flaw is that it is Russian and I don’t need to explain why this could be a problem for Pakistan in exports and in time of conflict. Second, It leaves a heavy smoke trail behind it, which is a bid disadvantage in dog fights. The advantage of MP-53-2 jet engine being retrofitted onto the JF-17 could be the following.

1. Pakistan would not have to rely on a foreign supplier
2. Commonality between the two platforms, hence great advantage in terms of logistical support and maintenance.

the mp53 engine for jf17 will result in more delays,the engine has a higher thrust and hence the aircraft design may have to be revalidated,there may have to be some modifications to be carried out on the airframe to acccomodate this engine.
pakistan can try to get a customised version of the engine but they will definitely have to invest in it ,besides it will also take some time (a couple of years at least).

 

[Hussain]

Re: P.A.F Modernization after the Earhquake

I agree with Ethan that it would now be a total waste of time in attempting to purchase new F16's due to the ever changing political environment in the world. Instead Pakistan should go for second hand F16's, Mirage 3's/F1's and retrofit them with newer radars and weapons systems to form the backbone of its airforce. Pakistan needs to do anything possible to retire it's F7P's and A5C's as they have no real multirole capabilities, radar coverage or endurance.

If Pakistan purchased these expensive F16's + spare parts etc then its other priority, like a developing a credible helicopter force, particularly after the earthquake will be severely compromised.

In my opinion Pakistan should go for the Rafale, as its front line fighter, as it is much more modern than the Mirage 2000, twin engined and most importantly stealthy in design. Also I can't see the point of buying the Miarge 2000, as India already has it. India can also purchase much more Mirage 2000's than Pakistan can ever do.

I think China can, if she so wished, provide Pakistan with at least three or four squadrons of F10's and F7MG's . That will allow Pakistan the time to further develop and induct the JF17 thunder.

 

[aaaditya]

Re: P.A.F Modernization after the Earhquake

I agree with Ethan that it would now be a total waste of time in attempting to purchase new F16's due to the ever changing political environment in the world. Instead Pakistan should go for second hand F16's, Mirage 3's/F1's and retrofit them with newer radars and weapons systems to form the backbone of its airforce. Pakistan needs to do anything possible to retire it's F7P's and A5C's as they have no real multirole capabilities, radar coverage or endurance.

If Pakistan purchased these expensive F16's + spare parts etc then its other priority, like a developing a credible helicopter force, particularly after the earthquake will be severely compromised.

In my opinion Pakistan should go for the Rafale, as its front line fighter, as it is much more modern than the Mirage 2000, twin engined and most importantly stealthy in design. Also I can't see the point of buying the Miarge 2000, as India already has it. India can also purchase much more Mirage 2000's than Pakistan can ever do.

I think China can, if she so wished, provide Pakistan with at least three or four squadrons of F10's and F7MG's . That will allow Pakistan the time to further develop and induct the JF17 thunder.

just one thing against rafale is that it costs 65million dollars per aircraft,being a twin engined aircraft would require a hell of maintainence.
i think pakistan should go for the chinese j-10(it is a fourth generation aircraft),and if pakistan manages to save some money from this deal then they can also try and acquire the jh7 which can prove to be a very effective attack aircraft.

 

[Hussain]

Re: P.A.F Modernization after the Earhquake

just one thing against rafale is that it costs 65million dollars per aircraft,being a twin engined aircraft would require a hell of maintainence.
i think pakistan should go for the Chinese j-10(it is a fourth generation aircraft),and if Pakistan manages to save some money from this deal then they can also try and acquire the jh7 which can prove to be a very effective attack aircraft.

I think all modern militaries have to become more technical. Pakistan, as in the case of India and China, to have the capability to maintain highly sophisticated weapons. All three are nuclear powers. So it may be an advantage for the Pakistan military to induct the Rafale and receive adequate training for its maintenance. I think lame excuses aren't viable in today's technological world.

If Pakistan is willing to spend 4-5 billion dollars on F16's then they can surely spend half of that on buying at least 25 Rafale's. They need them for intercept roles, localised skirmishes where there is heavy electronic jamming/AAM activity (like in Kargil conflict)or multi role land, air and sea missions (around Karachi).

 

[EthanXH58]

Re: P.A.F Modernization after the Earhquake

Aditya I agee that JF-17 should not be delayed any further. I was speculating the possibility of the the induction of MP-53-2 jet engine as part of JF-17 along with the relevant avionics in the post 2010 period. That is after the first 50 JF-17s have entered service with PAF.

 

[SABRE]

Re: P.A.F Modernization after the Earhquake

The f-16 purchase deal was postponed for few months not years & it was delayed in wait for what Int. Doners are willing to give. Since Pakistan got more in donation than it required, Pakistan would be going for F-16 deal in early 2006.

 

[aaaditya]

Re: P.A.F Modernization after the Earhquake

I think all modern militaries have to become more technical. Pakistan, as in the case of India and China, to have the capability to maintain highly sophisticated weapons. All three are nuclear powers. So it may be an advantage for the Pakistan military to induct the Rafale and receive adequate training for its maintenance. I think lame excuses aren't viable in today's technological world.

If Pakistan is willing to spend 4-5 billion dollars on F16's then they can surely spend half of that on buying at least 25 Rafale's. They need them for intercept roles, localised skirmishes where there is heavy electronic jamming/AAM activity (like in Kargil conflict)or multi role land, air and sea missions (around Karachi).

thats strange wasnt the f10 supposed to be a fourth generation aircraft comparable to the gripens and other aircrafts,iam sure pakistan can equip them with their choice of western avionics and radars .but the thing is that the f10 is cheaper than the rafale.iam sure that at the cost of 1 rafale pakistan can acquire 1f10 and 1 jh7(according to the janes jh7 incorporates some stealth characteristics).

they can easily build up their force structures.

 

[Hussain]

Re: P.A.F Modernization after the Earhquake

thats strange wasnt the f10 supposed to be a fourth generation aircraft comparable to the gripens and other aircrafts,iam sure pakistan can equip them with their choice of western avionics and radars .but the thing is that the f10 is cheaper than the rafale.iam sure that at the cost of 1 rafale Pakistan can acquire 1f10 and 1 jh7(according to the janes jh7 incorporates some stealth characteristics).

they can easily build up their force structures.

What's the point of attempting to use French radars , avionics on the F10 when there is no guarantee the French will provide advanced systems for Chinese fighters? In any case it doesn't appear o be the case that the Chinese are offering Pakistan the F10. Even if they were it would take some time to choose the radar and equipment Pakistan wants for version of the F10. Better buy the complete package for the simple point of simplifying things and having a fully tested warplane. India has tried various options for the SU27 and as you are aware this takes a lot of time and expense.

 

[P.A.F]

Re: P.A.F Modernization after the Earhquake

My opinion to all of this is as follows:

Get All second hand F-16's ASAP. Do Block C/D deal early/mid next year.
Full steam ahead with the induction of JF-17's. 150 minimum requirement.
50 K-8's are efficient enough.
Get Erieye's ASAP.

Look into a squadron of 50-60 Gripens, Mirage2k, Rafale to induct when possible.

J-10 should be coming PAF's way by atleast 2010.