Pakistan Air Force [PAF] News and Discussions

adsH

New Member
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

pshamim said:
No, even Aim-9X was a problem according to my former colleagues in Lockheed Martin.
I do believe that! the AIM-9X equiped with the HMS, would provide PAF's 75+40MLU's capbilities that would be absoultely superb. I believe RAF hasn't even introduced the ASRAAM throughout the fleet. Combine 9X Capability with HMS and I think we all know who the winner is going to be.
 

srirangan

Banned Member
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

adsH said:
First, there was no war hence there would be no "Process process" between the two nations. This is what some would call "First Contact" First overt one! by the way refer to "Charlie Wilson's war" to read about the connections between the two nations.

It would be interesting to see how this plays out, PAF could end up with some Israeli Hardware.
When was there even violence betw Israel and Pakistan?
 

P.A.F

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Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

srirangan said:
When was there even violence betw Israel and Pakistan?
the only violence i can think of between the two countries is when PAF pilots fought in the arab isreali war. other then that nothing.
 

srirangan

Banned Member
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Yep .. Surprising that so many countries delayed in recognizing Israel .. Arab/Oil power.
 

SABRE

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Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

AVM today informed on GEO Tv show (50 mins) that besides F-16 PAF by US, European sources have now made their jets available to Pakistan & after final evaluation they would be selected.

He also said that as a forces multiplier Pakistan will purchase AWACs of high quality.

From my source (A friend actualy) Pakistan's new Air War Doctorine include:

1. High Quality Air Battle & Ground attack training at Night Times.

2. Air Craft line ups:

a. Air Superiority Fighter
b. Multi Role Fighter (I believe F-16)
c. Multi Role Support Fighter (JF-17)
d. Maritime Striker
e. Ground attacker

Note: any one AC verient may perform most of the mentioned points.
e.g; JF-17 performing Maritime Strike Rule or Ground attack Role.
 

SABRE

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Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

PAF goes for biggest exercises today


ISLAMABAD: Pakistan Air Force's month-long strategic exercise, High Mark-05, will kickoff today (Sunday, 4th september).

The exercise, the biggest in country's military history, is to focus on sharply developing strategies to operate and conduct air operations in the hilly areas of North and Kashmir.

The extensive exercises are preceded by extensive tri-service war-game titled, Tempest-1, focused on the employment concepts of air power.

PAF will be conducting High Mark 05 with 180 Mirages, 60 A-5, 32 F-16s, 55 F7PG, 155F7MP, 15 FT7MP, 20 C-130 Allocates, Puma, MI17 and Cobra helicopters. Aim 9P, Aim9L, Magic R550, Air Dragon, PL-7, PL5, BL755 Exocet, CBU10, CBU 12, Maverick and Snake eye missiles will be the systems at the disposals of the two forces.

However, Wonder Thunder Jet JF-17 will not participate in the exercises as it still awaits avionics and missile systems to be mounted on it though the airborne subsystems have been fitted on it.

President Gen Pervez Musharraf and Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz will also witness the drills to be participated by the Pakistan Army and Navy as well.

The PAF alone would bear the entire budgetary expense of the exercise that will involve all major bases including Risalpur, Kamara, Peshawar, Chaklala, Mianwali, Mushaf, Rafiqui, Samungli, Mehran and Masroor.

The transport and helicopter fleets would be exposed to the same operational engagement as the fighter aircraft.

The PAF aircrafts will fly a large quantum of operational sorties.

Two operations headquarters will be set up on undisclosed bases from where two air forces will engage in full fledge war involving ground troops, army aviation and strategic forces.

Upgraded avionics and Air Defence Sensors on aircraft and ground-based radars are meshed into the greater fabric of air operations.

Two opposing forces Blueland and Foxland would clash in the exercises.

Blue Forces will be lean, agile, and equipped with modern, state-of-the-art air defence equipment and fighters mounted with strategic weapon systems.

The Fox Forces having the number edge in aircraft's will be in an offensive mode warranting the Blue Forces to first secure vital assets including the major bases, runways, bridges and strategic locations.

Northern Air Command Peshawar, Central Air Command Sargodha and Southern Air Command Masroor will be dedicating their squadrons to form Blue and Fox Forces.
Source: DefenceTalk News
Link: http://www.defencetalk.com/news/pub...icle_003272.php
Alas...no JF-17 is participating :( but the war game between Blue Forces & Fox Forces would be the best feature & very entertaining :) .

Dont for get that there is Defence Day on 6th September. The war game will cross into that date aswell. It may go big on this perticular day.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
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Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

adsH said:
First, there was no war hence there would be no "Process process" between the two nations. This is what some would call "First Contact" First overt one! by the way refer to "Charlie Wilson's war" to read about the connections between the two nations.

It would be interesting to see how this plays out, PAF could end up with some Israeli Hardware.
partial hijack. what will be interesting is how malaysia now reacts to this. israeli equipment has been rejected in the past due to the issue of Gaza.

i can't imagine Pakistan becoming a military equipment customer though.
 

webmaster

Troll Hunter
Staff member
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

//hijack continue

According to the foreign minister of Pak, there have been great deal of secret talks and contact between Pakistan and Israel over the past 6 years. It may not have produced anything significant to the fact that it was worth making public but the general "contact" was there mostly due to the the nuclear tests conducted by Pakistan, IMHO. I believe, Israel may have approached Pakistan in order to establish some type of government to government contact because of the hype about the "islamic" bomb notion, which I think is completely absurd.

As far as Pakistan as a military equipment buyer from Israel, there is a chance of Pak-israel military hardware cooperation only and only when Pakistan recognizes Israel and there is official and bublic government to government contact and restrictions on Pakistani passports is removed...

//hijack end
 

chaoticsensatio

New Member
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

WebMaster said:
//hijack continue

According to the foreign minister of Pak, there have been great deal of secret talks and contact between Pakistan and Israel over the past 6 years. It may not have produced anything significant to the fact that it was worth making public but the general "contact" was there mostly due to the the nuclear tests conducted by Pakistan, IMHO. I believe, Israel may have approached Pakistan in order to establish some type of government to government contact because of the hype about the "islamic" bomb notion, which I think is completely absurd.

As far as Pakistan as a military equipment buyer from Israel, there is a chance of Pak-israel military hardware cooperation only and only when Pakistan recognizes Israel and there is official and bublic government to government contact and restrictions on Pakistani passports is removed...

//hijack end
The talks are under way to make an acceptable senario to reduce the public protest against recognition of Israel. however in the armed forces community this idea was presented by the Air force and NDC. since some of the arab countries already have bilateral relations with Israel, and Pakistan was hurting herself esp PAF because of some one else's problem. Since there are only two Idealogical countries in the world ( PAK & ISRAEL ). and Islamic hard liners always presented these Idealogies contradictory to each other for their own interest and brain washing, THE FIRST CONTACT is another way to dissolve terrorism, sorry comment was not really related to the thread but very important for the future of PAF
 

aaaditya

New Member
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

WebMaster said:
//hijack continue

According to the foreign minister of Pak, there have been great deal of secret talks and contact between Pakistan and Israel over the past 6 years. It may not have produced anything significant to the fact that it was worth making public but the general "contact" was there mostly due to the the nuclear tests conducted by Pakistan, IMHO. I believe, Israel may have approached Pakistan in order to establish some type of government to government contact because of the hype about the "islamic" bomb notion, which I think is completely absurd.

As far as Pakistan as a military equipment buyer from Israel, there is a chance of Pak-israel military hardware cooperation only and only when Pakistan recognizes Israel and there is official and bublic government to government contact and restrictions on Pakistani passports is removed...

//hijack end

wasnt there a certain amount of defence relations between pakistan and israel earlier,i remember reading in an article that during a war between india and pakistan(1971) pakistan sent its aircrafts (not sure wether it is mirages or sabres )to israel for maintainence but on india's request israel delayed the return of these jets ,and from then pakistan always maintained an attitude of distrust towards israel.:coffee
 

pshamim

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Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

aaaditya said:
wasnt there a certain amount of defence relations between pakistan and israel earlier,i remember reading in an article that during a war between india and pakistan(1971) pakistan sent its aircrafts (not sure wether it is mirages or sabres )to israel for maintainence but on india's request israel delayed the return of these jets ,and from then pakistan always maintained an attitude of distrust towards israel.:coffee
That is not true at all. Pakistan never sent any aircrafts to Israel in 1971. And India, as the Russian ally, did not have an iota of inflence in Israel during the 70s.

As far as the contacts between Israel and Pakistan is concerned during the Afghan war, Israel shipped various equipment to Pakistan through its companies in Europe. Pakistan followed a "Don't ask-Don't tell policy" Many of these items were American licensed and produced in Israel but all references to the origin were omitted. I personally visited several companies in Israel on behalf of my employers in US and negotiated some of the supplies to Pakistan by Israel.
 

SABRE

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Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

aaaditya said:
wasnt there a certain amount of defence relations between pakistan and israel earlier,i remember reading in an article that during a war between india and pakistan(1971) pakistan sent its aircrafts (not sure wether it is mirages or sabres )to israel for maintainence but on india's request israel delayed the return of these jets ,and from then pakistan always maintained an attitude of distrust towards israel.:coffeeQUOTE]

Thats absurd....no direct or open/public military links has been there between Pak & Israel except during Pak-Afghan war when few Israeli Generals visited Pakistan & during Iraq-Iran war when Israel was sending weapons to Iran.

As far as the contacts between Israel and Pakistan is concerned during the Afghan war, Israel shipped various equipment to Pakistan through its companies in Europe. Pakistan followed a "Don't ask-Don't tell policy" Many of these items were American licensed and produced in Israel but all references to the origin were omitted. I personally visited several companies in Israel on behalf of my employers in US and negotiated some of the supplies to Pakistan by Israel.
Europe & now specialy Turkey is the diplomatic point of Pakistan & Israel. When I was in England I found out there through Europe Pakistan sends textile products to Israel. Offcourse products from Israel to Pak & from Pak to Israel had different "Made in _____ " tags.

I come to know abt Pak-Israel deals during Afghan war...but its amazing that you went there pshamim.

Anyways PAF can gain alot from Israel if Pak eccepts Israel, may be even with out publicaly eccepting. From what I found from my digging Israel in the past has had offered its military services (of what sort I dont know), they have regularly wanted to establish relations with Pakistan.
 

pshamim

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Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

SABRE I come to know abt Pak-Israel deals during Afghan war...but its amazing that you went there pshamim.[/QUOTE said:
Yes, it was an amzing and eye opening trip. No Pakistani General would meet an Israeli General. One of the Senior most Pakistani General told me not to divulge the source and they would never ask for one. On the other hand, One of the retired Israeli General who became a top figure in Adtran, told me that they would ship whatever Pakistan wanted through European transit points. Whatever US could not ship to Pakistan at the time, was shipped by the Israelis with full US backing.

Aaaditya, do not forget that the Pakistan, US, and Israel shared one common purpose-and that was Soviet's defeat. India was a Soviet supporter and there are numerous occassion India criticizing US and supporting Russian move into Afghanistan.
 

P.A.F

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Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Here is an interesting article on what u guys are talking about.

http://www.newkerala.com/news.php?action=fullnews&id=19697
Pakistan, Israel collaborated during Afghan war: book:

Islamabad: Even as a furious debate rages in Pakistan on the pros and cons of recognising Israel, it has been revealed that Islamabad and Tel Aviv collaborated to provide arms to the mujahideen during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan from 1979-1989.

"Charlie Wilson's War: The Extraordinary Story of the Largest Covert Operation in History", by journalist George Crile details the secret deals made by late Pakistani dictator Zia-ul Haq and Israel through the CIA for weapons to be supplied to the Afghan mujahideen.

US Congressman Charlie Wilson of Texas, the central figure in the book, brokered the deals, according to the book. According to a report in Daily Times Sunday, the book states that Wilson made the proposal to Zia to deal with the Israelis during his visit to the US after the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.

The proposal was made at a dinner hosted by a Houston woman, Joanne Herring, who Zia took a fancy to and later named honorary consul of Pakistan.

Says the author: "He (Wilson) told Zia about his experience the previous year when the Israelis had shown him the vast stores of Soviet weapons they had captured from the PLO (Palestine Liberation Organisation) in Lebanon. The weapons were perfect for the mujahideen, he told Zia. If Wilson could convince the CIA to buy them, would Zia have any problems passing them on to the Afghans?

"Zia, ever the pragmatist, smiled on the proposal, adding, 'Just don't put any Stars of David on the boxes,'" the book states.

Wilson, after learning that the Israelis were secretly upgrading the Chinese army's Russian-designed T-55 tanks, and that the Chinese were supplying Pakistan with T-55s, proposed that Zia enter into a similar secret arrangement with the Israelis.

The proposition was sensitive, as just three years earlier, a rumour that Israel had been involved in an attack on the Great Mosque in Makkah had prompted thousands of people to storm the US embassy in Pakistan and burn it to the ground, the book notes.

"Publicly, Pakistan and Israel would have to remain foes, he (Wilson) conceded. But as Zia well understood, Pakistan and Israel shared the same deadly foe in the Soviet Union. And the fact was that each could profit mightily by secretly cooperating with the other," Crile writes.

"Zia left the congressman with an understanding that he was authorised to begin secret negotiations to open back channels between Islamabad and Jerusalem. Wilson would leave for Israel in March and travel on to Pakistan to brief Zia immediately afterward," the book states.

On one of his visits to Israel, Wilson convinced IMI, the weapons conglomerate that produces Israel's artillery, tank shells, and machine guns, to design a rocket launcher for the mujahideen.

"By the time Wilson was ready to leave, they'd presented him with an impressive-looking design, complete with detailed specifications. It was a mule-portable, multi-rocketed device named, to the congressman's delight, the Charlie Horse."

Wilson ended up overseeing much of this weapons programme for Pakistan out of his own congressional office.

US-based Web newspaper South Asia Tribune contacted Wilson in July, after Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf had initiated a major debate on whether Islamabad should recognise Israel for his comments on what impact their previous nexus would have.

Said Wilson: "I will not comment on the present situation. It is for the governments of the two countries to decide what they want to do."

The meeting in Istanbul last Thursday of the foreign ministers of Pakistan and Israel, their first official contact, has upped the ante of the debate Musharraf set in motion.

The opposition, spearheaded by the Muttahida Majils-e-Amal religious alliance, has slammed the meeting and accused the Pakistani government of a U-turn in its 57-year-old policy on Israel at Washington's behest.

The government has denied any move to recognize Israel, saying any decision on this would be taken only after taking parliament and the nation into confidence.

_________________________________________________________________

I personally think that if there where relations between the two nation they can only be very limited. In this case i doubt that pakistan would ask for much military assistance from israel.
 

srirangan

Banned Member
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

This has been open source info for a long time now PAF. Nothing new really. As with the Israeli Pak FM meet. Its not significant to either Israel or Pak, but is of real worry to Iran and Saudi Arabia.

Israeli equip for Pakistan, now really let's not jump the gun. Speculation should be based on some reason.
 

adsH

New Member
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

srirangan said:
When was there even violence betw Israel and Pakistan?
I don't think i have to repeat myself here (plenty of intelligent people) all i can say read Charlie Wilson's war.

As with the Israeli Pak FM meet. Its not significant to either Israel or Pak
Israelis i know don't seem to think so!! And as far as i know prosperous Educated Pakistanis are just as excited as the Israelis.
 
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Hussain

New Member
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

There is no real differnce in dealing with Israel and the USA. Israeil always looks after its interests first. It even sells advanced US technology to China without US approval. So how and why would Pakistan trust Israel? The US dumped Pakistan as soon as the USSR left Afghanistan so how can Pakistani rely on US for long term spare supplies.


If Pakistan can get Israeli avionics for JF17 through China and benefit from it. Why not? I am sure if the Israeli's initiated talks then they might be offering something.

As far as I know (first hand) the so called Pakistani elite (eg Benazir's government's ambassador's offspring) have been going to Israel for holidays for years on Pakistani passports. These were purely holiday trips. Apparently these individuals are so called enlightened Muslims who believe the Quaran is outdated and were studying in English Universities to promote the change of the Quaran. FACT.
 

srirangan

Banned Member
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

adsH said:
I don't think i have to repeat myself here (plenty of intelligent people) all i can say read Charlie Wilson's war.


Israelis i know don't seem to think so!! And as far as i know prosperous Educated Pakistanis are just as excited as the Israelis.
Plenty of the -intelligent people- will tell you Iran and the house of Saud were most concerned by the meet. Other than that it is inconsequentual for the rest.
 

srirangan

Banned Member
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Quote:

Originally Posted by srirangan



When was there even violence betw Israel and Pakistan?


I don't think i have to repeat myself here (plenty of intelligent people) all i can say read Charlie Wilson's war.
I think those intelligent people would realize that the question was a rhettorical not a literal one. duh.
 

lakhani

New Member
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

srirangan said:
This has been open source info for a long time now PAF. Nothing new really. As with the Israeli Pak FM meet. Its not significant to either Israel or Pak, but is of real worry to Iran and Saudi Arabia.

Israeli equip for Pakistan, now really let's not jump the gun. Speculation should be based on some reason.
No that is of no worry to Saudia Arabia and Iran. I heared some Political sources confirming that they have talkked to saudia and even Iran, well time before about this meeting and had taken them into confident. The main benifit is to Israel as Pakistan has a gr8 influence in the middle eastern countries and can play an important role in creating the peace.
Another thing is that middle eastern countries like saudia really depends upon Pakistan for their armed forces (reports confirms that almost 80% of saudis armed forces are pakistanis) and is the only nuclear power in the islamic countries so becoming friendly with pakistan will help Israel in the long run.
I heared experts commenting on PTV that Israel(since having an influence on American defence) could help us aquiring some advanced technology but it will take time and will help us in maintaining continous good ties with U.S.
 
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