Pakistan Air Force [PAF] News and Discussions

[SABRE]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Any news on the AWACS front? i know the Pakistanis were buying the Eireye from Sweden. We offered them Hawkeyes..7 i believe in the 80's. The Paks should have taken that offer back then.Instead they stuck on the Sentrys and missed out.

In late 80s their were some technical issues for not buying HawkEyes...by the 90s Clinton admin had completely banned any military sale to us.

But recently US again offered E2C HawkEye. I guess u missed out on that news. HawkEyes were flew in to Karachi for presentation & evaluation by Pak Navy. But the problem is that PAF also requires AWACs & is in more favor for Eireye & E3Cs not E2Cs. I think E2C would be better instead of Eireye but Pak has not upgraded its requirement to E3C.

The reason for Eireye is that PAF has been in the discussions for Gripens. Both from same country. They belive it is better to have different platforms from single country to escort each other rather than mixed.

But if E3C is offered I dont see Pak going for Eireye.

 

[fieldmarshal]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

PAF needs a mix of super-duper hi-tech, mid-tech aircraft,

This means that PAF is still in the market fro an other fighter ac and after the acqusition of the F-16 (which i believe will fulfill the mid-tech role), the only ac which can fill the high tech role and is available without many "strings attached" is rafeal.

 

[SABRE]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

The most favored is Gripen...PAF officials involved in discussion say that Gripen is pilot friendly to pilots who have experiance on Fighters like F-16. Rafale is 3rd favored...never found of 2nd favored.

The situation is like this that if we take 2nd US military equipment, including fighters, we get them for free. We only pay for their upgradings. So I think option of F-15s is also open but it would be with strings.

Gripen it self is enfluenced by US & British aviation companies so their are strings to it.

So u may be right about Rafale...besides PAF is back into discussions on 2nd Mirage2000s with Qatar..so the doors to France is also open.

But still Gripen is being pursued.

 

[fieldmarshal]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

After buying f-16 block 52, to go for mirage 2000 would be a waste of money as with the induction of mirage 2000 PAF would stand to gain nothin as both mirage 2000-5/9 and the f-16 block 52/+/60 have basically the same performance envilope and their electronic package n weapany are almost the same, infact f-16 with easa n aim 9x/aim120 has an edge over the mirage and it is battle proven ie it has seen a lot more action and has a lot more kills both in the air n on the ground than the mirages.

With grippen too i dont think PAF will be able to get that edge that they are after, as girppen is not a true 4th gen fighter, 3rd gen would be more like it.
to put in the ranks of rafeal n eurofighter would not be doing justice to the both of them.
This coupled with the policies of the swedes make it a santion prone fighter 1 with the PAF should stay well clear off.

 

[BilalK]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

If PAF wants to go for a Mirage 2000-5 standard fighter, then they should buy used F-16 Block-32s for a super cheap price (or free), and upgrade them to Block-52 standards. That would be a much better decision, and a much cheaper one I may add. For future acquisition, I think the Gripen or advanced version of J-10 is being sought, though the Mirage-2000 series is right now better than both these aircraft, the M2000 series has reached its limits after the -9 customization. So if the PAF wants a Western fighter, relatively cheap in cost, cheap in maintainence, Gripen would be ideal.

Also on the question of AWACS, my opinion is that both the Erieye and Hawkeye will be bought, why? Well reason one is that the Hawkeye is better suited for coastal and maritime operations, whereas Erieye is suited for mountainous and cold climate operations. American aircraft supposedly don't erode as fast as European aircraft, and avoiding erosion is a huge thing when we're talking about planes being stationed in the coasts. Sweden being the cold climate and mountanious country it is, developed Erieye for that kind of landscape, on the other hand E-2C was developed for the U.S Navy for maritime operations. Unless we're talking Wedgetail which will be used by Australia and Turkey for all landscapes, having both Hawkeye and Erieye would be a good decision by PAF.

My opinion is that Southern Command in the future will mostly be using JF-17s, F-16A/B MLUs and F-16C/D Block-52s alongside E-2C Hawkeye-2000s, while Central and Northern Command use the same except also have Gripen or J-10 and have Erieye instead of Hawkeye.

 

[fieldmarshal]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

I dont think PAF has the luxury to operate so many diff platforms which are so similar in capability and performance and dont bring any added advantage.
PAF has been opperating f-16 for almost 2 decades now, the infrastructure is in place theground equipment is in place, the pilots n the technicans are fimiliar with the ac inside out, even though block 52+/mlu ac are diff than the block 15 that the PAF operate, still PAF has been upgrading the f-16 over the years n hence these birds are very close to the mlu configeration.
SO bringin in newer f-16 would be a good and easy fit in the PAF. While if we were to introduce mirage 2000 -5/9, that would require a lot of time, effort and resources, while our arch enemy has been opperating the same birds for a long time, so this would be a very unwise move.
hawkeye and erieye present the same dialima, as operting and maintaining two piece of equipment is no piece of cake.plus these birds are awacs not maritime servaliance ac. for that the navy is gettin 8 p3c ac which are upgraded to a cost more that 900 million us dollars that more than a 100 million dollars per ac, what do you think they are putting in them ac?
all of those p3c will not be performing the same role, we might even see a few of the p3c in jstar configration.
on top of that the navy has recently upgraded all its atlantique to the very latst atlantique 3 configration n on top of that the f-27 fokkers have also gone through a complete retro fit and upgrade thus extending their lif by at least an other 15 years. Not to forget the 2 p3c who too have gone through a retrofit and up grade carried out by a portuguse company here in Pakistan.
So the above gives the navy a lot of punch in the air, so i dont think hawkeye is even in the navys consideration.

 

[srirangan]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

I read on some Pakistani news website that the JF17 won't be taking part in the September War Games. Can anybody confirm that?

 

[BilalK]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Most likely not, given that having one or two JF-17s right now, for a whole month is an expensive idea. Why? Well because we have to set up an entire infastructure, spend so much money for just two planes. In addition, we don't know if PAF technicians, engineers, and pilots are completely finished with flying and maintaining the JF-17, if they aren't, it isn't feasible to hire non-PAF pilots to take part in such an excersize.

 

[aaaditya]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Most likely not, given that having one or two JF-17s right now, for a whole month is an expensive idea. Why? Well because we have to set up an entire infastructure, spend so much money for just two planes. In addition, we don't know if PAF technicians, engineers, and pilots are completely finished with flying and maintaining the JF-17, if they aren't, it isn't feasible to hire non-PAF pilots to take part in such an excersize.

wouldnt it accelerate the flight testing programme of jf-17 thunder if it were to participate in these excercises(when is it to be weapons tested?):coffee

 

[BilalK]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Well there are no reports about JF-17 being equipped with the avionics and hardware needed to test new weapons, so it would be considerably unfeasible to put just 2, without any important hardware, weaponry, etc, for a whole month, costs A LOT of money. However, I do believe systems are being tested, such as the JF-17's weapons and what not, just on different platforms such as the Mirage ROSE I (for SD-10), Mirage ROSE III (for bombs, precision guided munitions), and F-7PG (for PL-9?).

In my opinion, I think the PAF will set up a JF-17 test squadron by the middle of 2006, and start testing munitions and armaments, as well as avionics systems. Tests should be concluded by mid-2007, and the results will be submitted to Chendgu, where the avionics and weapons chosen will be fitted on the first-mass production model JF-17s to roll out by end of 2007. That is just my opinion though.

 

[aaaditya]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Well there are no reports about JF-17 being equipped with the avionics and hardware needed to test new weapons, so it would be considerably unfeasible to put just 2, without any important hardware, weaponry, etc, for a whole month, costs A LOT of money. However, I do believe systems are being tested, such as the JF-17's weapons and what not, just on different platforms such as the Mirage ROSE I (for SD-10), Mirage ROSE III (for bombs, precision guided munitions), and F-7PG (for PL-9?).

In my opinion, I think the PAF will set up a JF-17 test squadron by the middle of 2006, and start testing munitions and armaments, as well as avionics systems. Tests should be concluded by mid-2007, and the results will be submitted to Chendgu, where the avionics and weapons chosen will be fitted on the first-mass production model JF-17s to roll out by end of 2007. That is just my opinion though.

can you give me some information on how many aircrafts are currently undergoing test flights in both pakistan and china,how many variants are planned and how many are currently being manufactured(to participate in the test flight). :coffee

 

[A Khan]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

aaaditya, this should answer your question:

The first FC-1 rolled out from the assembly line on 31 May 2003, and its 15-minute maiden flight took place on 24 August 2003. So far four prototypes have been built, with the second for static tests and the rest in flying tests. The initial production of 16 aircraft is expected to start in mid-2006, and the PAF has a requirement for 150 aircraft under the designation of the JF-17 to replace its Chengdu F-7P fighters in current service. Pakistani aviation industry will also be involved in the production of some avionics for the aircraft.

http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/fc1.asp

 

[srirangan]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

aaaditya, this should answer your question:

The first FC-1 rolled out from the assembly line on 31 May 2003, and its 15-minute maiden flight took place on 24 August 2003. So far four prototypes have been built, with the second for static tests and the rest in flying tests. The initial production of 16 aircraft is expected to start in mid-2006, and the PAF has a requirement for 150 aircraft under the designation of the JF-17 to replace its Chengdu F-7P fighters in current service. Pakistani aviation industry will also be involved in the production of some avionics for the aircraft.

http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/fc1.asp

I heard someone post above that PAF has 2 KF-17's and you are saying 4 JF-17's. Can either of you post sources, your link doesn't give the number currently with PAF.

 

[chaoticsensatio]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Yeah, buying a Block52 F-16 without the AIM-120 would be a total waste. Is Pakistan asking for JDAMS too? with bunker busters.....it would be close to Israel's SUFA.

Since you mentioned Isreal here so lets do some brain work :coffee . The full defece package was announced when Pakistan showed some interest in the Israeli invitation to start a peace process between the two countries. Pakistan tested the nishan after the invitation was accepted formally my General Mushurraf in 2004. last month pakistan tested a crusie missile, Pakistan's defence package of 75 F-16s with AIM-120 seems to be approved just after the two Pakistani and Israeli foriegn ministers HISTORIC meeting in Turkey. which is a very healthy sign for both the countries. and I am really positive if both the presidents meet PAF would the most flourishing air force.

 

[P.A.F]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

I heard someone post above that PAF has 2 KF-17's and you are saying 4 JF-17's. Can either of you post sources, your link doesn't give the number currently with PAF.

There are 4 prototypes so far.
http://www.milavia.net/aircraft/fc-1/fc-1.htm

the 4th will fly some time this year to test chinese radar and SD-10 missile.

plz read all the article for full understanding of the JF-17 project.

 

[aaaditya]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

There are 4 prototypes so far.
http://www.milavia.net/aircraft/fc-1/fc-1.htm

the 4th will fly some time this year to test chinese radar and SD-10 missile.

plz read all the article for full understanding of the JF-17 project.

thanks ,but will a naval variant be developed(a carrier variant or china and a land based variant equipped with anti ship missiles for pakistan)

 

[P.A.F]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

thanks ,but will a naval variant be developed(a carrier variant or china and a land based variant equipped with anti ship missiles for pakistan)

To be honest i have no idea. but if i was to guess then i would say that they would make a martime strike version of it. i don't think they would make a carrier version as yet as both don't have one.

 

[aaaditya]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

There are 4 prototypes so far.
http://www.milavia.net/aircraft/fc-1/fc-1.htm

the 4th will fly some time this year to test chinese radar and SD-10 missile.

plz read all the article for full understanding of the JF-17 project.

hey i read that article it is pretty brief and does not give any information regarding the grifo radar(iam not able to find detailed info on it,so a link would be helpfull)
in that article they mentioned a weapon system called durandel,would you be having any information as to what type of bomb/missile is it and the source of the weapon(indigenous/acquired) :coffee

 

[P.A.F]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

hey i read that article it is pretty brief and does not give any information regarding the grifo radar(iam not able to find detailed info on it,so a link would be helpfull)
in that article they mentioned a weapon system called durandel,would you be having any information as to what type of bomb/missile is it and the source of the weapon(indigenous/acquired) :coffee

more info on the Durandal. Its french made.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/blu-107.htm

 

[adsH]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Israeli invitation to start a peace process between the two countries.

First, there was no war hence there would be no "Process process" between the two nations. This is what some would call "First Contact" First overt one! by the way refer to "Charlie Wilson's war" to read about the connections between the two nations.

It would be interesting to see how this plays out, PAF could end up with some Israeli Hardware.