NZDF General discussion thread

[ngatimozart]

You all know the majority of the NZ members view on our governments defence positions. The real point that our Aussie cousins don't seem to appreciate is that the NZ public do have a different view than the Australian public. It's not just related to defence either. We are less arrogant about our place in the world and we don't need to go around all the time telling all and sundry how good we are. We just get on and do it. We treat our own indigenous people a hell of a lot better than Australia has treated its own. Yes we do still have racism here but nowhere near the level of Australia. It's no secret that many of the Pacific Island nations see Australia as arrogant.

Then there are the defence acquisition balls ups that the ADF have made; very expensive ones too. Where to start? SH-2G(A) Super Seasprite saga - that was a RAN balls up from woe to go because of unrealistic expectations. The MRH-90 and the Taipans. The Army in too much of a hurry to get their new toys, plus Defence not ordering spare parts etc.

So before you all start casting dispersions at NZ in general, look in the mirror first because your shit stinks just like everybody elses.

 

[Wombat000]

“Allies can only do so much, and on defence and security matters the real work goes on behind closed doors. l'm sure allies have raised issues in the appropriate forum……”

i agree.
However it’s up to partners to be inclusive.

Nothing will change until NZ assets are actually included in the planned OOB bigger picture.
This has to originate from joint Govt levels.
Having a structure to account for = dictates the capability. Its not necessarily simply a flag pole on a boat!

I don’t blame NZ. Initially no doubt it was valid to exist at the fringes, and try to justify expenditure and effort.
Its not the same world now tho,

Until NZ (planned or actual) assets are genuinely factored in by the TEAM, NZ will no nothing else but meander along at the fringes. Why would they do anything else?

 

[Wombat000]

“you all know the majority of the NZ members view on our governments defence positions. The real point that our Aussie cousins don't seem to appreciate is that the NZ public do have a different view than the Australian public……”

This has nothing to do with NZ independence.
NZ behaves as it does.
But, in the event either Aust or NZ is impacted BOTH will try to act in unison.

I appreciate the NZ political climate as best I can. But a populous thinking they’re removed, on the fringe, will likely not be motivated and remain so. The Govt reflects this, after all thats why they were voted in.

Until NZ in included (& expected & accounted for ) in a unified ’hand in glove’ collaborative arrangement, good luck with any significant defence program.

It’s up to Aust and in the broader context, the US to rally NZ back to the team.

 

[MrConservative]

We are less arrogant about our place in the world and we don't need to go around all the time telling all and sundry how good we are.

Actually, I think we are just as arrogant and smug about our place in the world, but it is not a sentiment which relates to defence - national security. I think the collective arrogance is manifested in other areas that we perceive ourselves as more morally pure - and in fact things like race relations, the obsessive clean and green - we are so much more beautiful - 100% pure god-zone country, always taking the moral high ground, always racing to import the latest woke fad, and the everybody loves us schtick that the local media and government has feed to us for years. And yes telling others how much better, secularly holy we are.

 

[John Fedup]

Actually, I think we are just as arrogant and smug about our place in the world, but it is not a sentiment which relates to defence - national security. I think the collective arrogance is manifested in other areas that we perceive ourselves as more morally pure - and in fact things like race relations, the obsessive clean and green - we are so much more beautiful - 100% pure god-zone country, always taking the moral high ground, always racing to import the latest woke fad, and the everybody loves us schtick that the local media and government has feed to us for years. And yes telling others how much better, secularly holy we are.

Same crap here as well. Needless to say, junior shovels this down the public’s throat and being moronic, they love it. Note also, even though we share a border with the US, they haven’t really been successful in forcing Canada to take defence seriously. Can only imagine how much worse it would be if we had a thousand mile ditch like NZ-Australia has.

 

[ngatimozart]

Hmm, seems that I have struck a nerve with my comment about Australians being arrogant. Mr C is correct in his assumption that we Kiwis can be just as arrogant.

So WRT my arrogance comment I withdraw and apologise.

 

[ngatimozart]

Same crap here as well. Needless to say, junior shovels this down the public’s throat and being moronic, they love it. Note also, even though we share a border with the US, they haven’t really been successful in forcing Canada to take defence seriously. Can only imagine how much worse it would be if we had a thousand mile ditch like NZ-Australia has.

We are quite willing to export Jacindarella and her coterie to Canada, free of charge. We'll even pay for the transportation costs. Of course there is a no returns policy because the Consumer Guarantees Act isn't valid outside of NZ territory. The NZ High Commission in Ottowa doesn't apply under the Consumer Guarantees Act either.

 

[John Fedup]

We are quite willing to export Jacindarella and her coterie to Canada, free of charge. We'll even pay for the transportation costs. Of course there is a no returns policy because the Consumer Guarantees Act isn't valid outside of NZ territory. The NZ High Commission in Ottowa doesn't apply under the Consumer Guarantees Act either.

Nice try but I think we should gift junior to NZ. Junior can help with making French your second official language so you can interface with French Polynesia better and you can be Australia’s conduit to France once the two countries close their embassies.

 

[Gibbo]

“Allies can only do so much, and on defence and security matters the real work goes on behind closed doors. l'm sure allies have raised issues in the appropriate forum……”

i agree.
However it’s up to partners to be inclusive.

Nothing will change until NZ assets are actually included in the planned OOB bigger picture.
This has to originate from joint Govt levels.
Having a structure to account for = dictates the capability. Its not necessarily simply a flag pole on a boat!

I don’t blame NZ. Initially no doubt it was valid to exist at the fringes, and try to justify expenditure and effort.
Its not the same world now tho,

Until NZ (planned or actual) assets are genuinely factored in by the TEAM, NZ will no nothing else but meander along at the fringes. Why would they do anything else?

'However it’s up to partners to be inclusive'.... that kind of infers a willingness on NZ's part that is being stymied by partner Govts.... that's not the case whatsoever. NZDF's effective cuts started with the Ruth Richardson budget and have only gained momentum since... that's close to 30 years whilst the ADF in particular has moved in the polar opposite direction. If 'the team' want to factor in what NZ can add to the OOB then NZ has to offer something of significant enough value to add in. We have a few core capabilities in each domain but in each case (except perhaps SAS) are small in numbers and limited in combat capability so would at best offer lower-level capability in the periphery of a regional conflict like keeping an 'eye on' a small rogue South Pacific nation or some such. That's the part in the 'team' effort OOB we have relegated ourselves to and hence we won't be asked nor expected to do anything much more than that.

 

[Depot Dog]

As an Aussie I am proud of how we stood up to the Chinese. China thought Australia was a weak link in the western alliance. But we gave them the two fingered salute. They gave us the 14 points of disagreement letter and trade sanctions. We disregarded the letter and diversifide trade. They thought they could hit us in the grey zone. We strengthened ourself and brought in our mates.
I'm not saying we are perfect and we stuff up frequently. Since Timor I think we headed in the right direction with defence. Now the benifits are paying off. The only thing I'm sad about is our biggest mate NZ is not pulling their weight. I don't blame NZ people or members of their defence force. All are fine people.
Your political class on both sides are the mongruls. They have to get their heads out of their as__es and have a good look around. Then they will see not all is well and maybe do something about it.

Regards
DD

 

[Depot Dog]

You all know the majority of the NZ members view on our governments defence positions. The real point that our Aussie cousins don't seem to appreciate is that the NZ public do have a different view than the Australian public. It's not just related to defence either. We are less arrogant about our place in the world and we don't need to go around all the time telling all and sundry how good we are. We just get on and do it. We treat our own indigenous people a hell of a lot better than Australia has treated its own. Yes we do still have racism here but nowhere near the level of Australia. It's no secret that many of the Pacific Island nations see Australia as arrogant.

Then there are the defence acquisition balls ups that the ADF have made; very expensive ones too. Where to start? SH-2G(A) Super Seasprite saga - that was a RAN balls up from woe to go because of unrealistic expectations. The MRH-90 and the Taipans. The Army in too much of a hurry to get their new toys, plus Defence not ordering spare parts etc.

So before you all start casting dispersions at NZ in general, look in the mirror first because your shit stinks just like everybody elses.

For pacific community needs, Australia and New Zealand level of arrogance is about right. I will use police as an example. I see New Zealand as a country cop. Friendly, community minded and the country you would have over for a BBQ.

Australia is the Special Operations Group cops. We are there to take down the bad guys. New Zealand needs to take the detectives exam and become a city detective. Then they can take control of most situations.

Regards
DD

@Depot Dog

As with my previous comment can we please be careful with language. This does come across as quite patronising. There is a common concern about NZ's posture in the current climate but the Australia and NZ relationships is not broken. Capability such as the P8's is not insignificant and suggest there is some awareness of the situation.

alexsa

 

[MrConservative]

For pacific community needs, Australia and New Zealand level of arrogance is about right. I will use police as an example. I see New Zealand as a country cop. Friendly, community minded and the country you would have over for a BBQ.

Australia is the Special Operations Group cops. We are there to take down the bad guys. New Zealand needs to take the detectives exam and become a city detective. Then they can take control of most situations.

Regards
DD

It was a couple of country cops who took down the Christchurch terrorist, which exposes the lack of cognitive engagement in your analogy. Rural policeman have a particularly difficult job and are often more experienced than city cops. They never throw fresh faced constables into a rural sole charge station and I know a few who are ADS course qualified.

 

[Depot Dog]

For pacific community needs, Australia and New Zealand level of arrogance is about right. I will use police as an example. I see New Zealand as a country cop. Friendly, community minded and the country you would have over for a BBQ.

Australia is the Special Operations Group cops. We are there to take down the bad guys. New Zealand needs to take the detectives exam and become a city detective. Then they can take control of most situations.

Regards
DD

@Depot Dog

As with my previous comment can we please be careful with language. This does come across as quite patronising. There is a common concern about NZ's posture in the current climate but the Australia and NZ relationships is not broken. Capability such as the P8's is not insignificant and suggest there is some awareness of the situation.

alexsa

I meant no offence with my comments and apologise to anyone who took offence. I was just taking Ngatimozati post about Australian arrogance. I agreed with him and was saying this is what the pacific needed. Then I painted the picture using police structure. Instead of writing something long and dry I used humour. In hindsight some may say it is more sarcasm. There were no thoughts of disrespect in my words or thoughts as I wrote this.

Regards
DD

 

[Depot Dog]

It was a couple of country cops who took down the Christchurch terrorist, which exposes the lack of cognitive engagement in your analogy. Rural policeman have a particularly difficult job and are often more experienced than city cops. They never throw fresh faced constables into a rural sole charge station and I know a few who are ADS course qualified.

You are 100% correct and I apoligise if my words hurt anyone connectted to this terrorist event. Again my thoughts writing it was to paint a picture. It was suppose to be inert and non offensive. I didn't direct it to NZ defence capabilities or aimed to put down the NZ commmunity or law enforcement. It came to me before I went to sleep last night and I processed it overnight. I just did not see the offence this would cause.

Regards
DD

Postedit. The more I read your post the more shocked I become. I would never belittle or write offensive comments about any one who has experianced trauma like this event. It never crossed my mind, my message would be thought of in those terms. That is not me or my values. Again I'm sorry to the victims and survivours. May he rot in hell

Postedit #2. Whilst I'm repectful of Mr Conservative comments. His comments first shocked me and I reacted as such. After reading my post I didn't say anything disrespectful to NZ in anyway. My referance to you as country cops because here in Australia the local country cop is the most respected branch. They are the good guys WRT to the community. If anything I'm describing Aussies as arrogant and hard.
The way I phrased it is unusual and sureal. You could say I was condesending or sarcastic. Even thou the latter was not my intention. I was just trying to follow rule 15.

These will be my last thoughts on this subject

 

[InterestedParty]

I can understand some Asian and Pacific countries seeing us Aussies as arrogant but in many cases I think this is a lack of willingness on our part to partake in the cultural etiquettes and just cut to the point instead of sitting through endless talk in order to do things "properly".
In my experience doing business in China and other parts of Asia having people say yes instead of just saying no really tests your ability to hold your tongue and starting an international incident.

 

[ngatimozart]

I can understand some Asian and Pacific countries seeing us Aussies as arrogant but in many cases I think this is a lack of willingness on our part to partake in the cultural etiquettes and just cut to the point instead of sitting through endless talk in order to do things "properly".
In my experience doing business in China and other parts of Asia having people say yes instead of just saying no really tests your ability to hold your tongue and starting an international incident.

Kiwis are much the same as Aussies in cutting to the chase, but we just tend smile more and be a bit politer as we figuratively slit your throat. I think it's more to do with our cultural background with Māori and Pacific cultures that influences how we deal with non European cultures. This is more predominant in recent times. I also think that we may be slightly more relaxed and easy going than Aussies are. When you think about it we don't have everything in our environment wanting to kill us. It's just the environment itself. However together the Aussies and the Kiwis make a formidable team and Kiwi pollies have forgotten that when it comes to defence and security. They are shitting in their own nest.

 

[Nighthawk.NZ]

I also think that we may be slightly more relaxed and easy going than Aussies are. When you think about it we don't have everything in our environment wanting to kill us.

I believe to a "certain degree" we are... more chilled, laid back... not so hot-headed... however, don't back us into a corner as we have a tendency to lash out.

We are known for politeness... but have a sting in our tongue when we need it. We have a tendency to politely mock you, and being passive-aggressive and or say what we need to say without creating a disturbance in the force... And China has been picking up on some of that passive-aggressiveness in the past few years...

However together the Aussies and the Kiwis make a formidable team and Kiwi pollies have forgotten that when it comes to defence and security. They are shitting in their own nest.

Yes when shit hits the fan,.... (makes a big mess don't ask how I know this) yes we do make a formidable team with our ANZAC brothers across the ditch.

 

[Redlands18]

I believe to a "certain degree" we are... more chilled, laid back... not so hot-headed... however, don't back us into a corner as we have a tendency to lash out.

We are known for politeness...

Except for those 15 Guys running around in Black Shorts and Shirts, they don't seem to like small Jumping Marsupials very much

 

[StingrayOZ]

You all know the majority of the NZ members view on our governments defence positions. The real point that our Aussie cousins don't seem to appreciate is that the NZ public do have a different view than the Australian public. It's not just related to defence either. We are less arrogant about our place in the world and we don't need to go around all the time telling all and sundry how good we are. We just get on and do it. We treat our own indigenous people a hell of a lot better than Australia has treated its own. Yes we do still have racism here but nowhere near the level of Australia. It's no secret that many of the Pacific Island nations see Australia as arrogant.

Often Australians will assume NZ agreement or alignment on any number of issues. While being fairly close socially, we still struggle to understand each others mindsets and what voters and citizens think collectively. Thats not unique, different parts of a country can have wildly different views.

Nearly every Australian will admit NZ is light years ahead of indigenous issues, in every way in every day. However, adopting those policies in Australia is not a popular thing or likely to happen across pretty much any aspect of the community. Not all NZ solutions will work in Australia. Things like indigenous language is an example. There is more or less one single indigenous language in NZ (*), in Australia there are hundreds, and most are completely unintelligible to each other. So transplanting language policies rarely works. Language is not going to unlock culture the same way it has in NZ, not in the same way. It is the same with defence.

On international matters our outlooks are quite different. Reflecting our different world views, our internal views, our identities, our responsibilities.

There is nothing wrong seeing the world your own way. I don't think Australians should take that away from any nation, and I don't think we can. If we want to build a coalition we will need to understand and have dialogs with plenty of different view points.

IMO NZ view is fairly similar to that of many European countries. There is a concern about China, but not an imminent threat. Defence is typically a low priority and other measures are more likely to be successful. Canada too, has a similar outlook on things like defence spending. NZ just isn't that interested in playing the regional politics and has generally had a fairly calm positive relationship with the region. Local issues play a bigger part, which makes sense, because of NZ location.

Australia has a different view. But also Australia has injected itself into this. Australia sought very close links with China in a large number of areas, despite knowing there would be risks. Australia sees itself as the regional power, and acts like it is the major power over much of the indo-pacific. Making up the one part of the Quad and the AUKUS squarely places where Australia sees itself. We have very large concerns with other nations too.

I have to say recently, Australia has been fairly unilateral in its policy and outlook. There is quite a gulf between Canberra and Wellington. Not only that, a variety of other policies has caused NZ and AU to diff apart. COVID, immigration, nationality, etc.

 

[ngatimozart]

@StingrayOZ I forgot about the polyglot of indigenous languages within Australia. It's PNG writ large in that aspect. Here we have two indigenous languages, Māori and Moriori; both being Polynesian languages and similar. The Moriori was only spoken on the Chatham Islands where the Moriori first settled. I originally thought that they were a Māori tribe that had migrated east to the Chatham Islands, but have since found out that they first arrived there as a separate Polynesian migration. We learn something new everyday.

I think that in some ways Australia doesn't see itself as a Asian Pacific nation but more as a transplanted mid Atlantic nation. It's not quite American and not quite European. Is it an identity issue? Possibly, maybe it's Australia trying to find its place in the world and define itself. Maybe not. NZ is going through a similar transition at the moment and it's something that will take time. We had the change of flag bally hoo and now there is discussion about changing the name of the country. So we definitely aren't settled with our identity.

That's why I think Australia maybe in a similar position. It's not just flags and names, but other equally fundamental issues such as the constitutional governance of the countries. Will either or both of us remain as Constitutional Monarchies or become Republics ? You could crown your own royalty - King Kevin (Rudd) First of His Name. And we could have King Winston (Peters) First of His Name, Great Leader of the Bog Roll . Who knows but all of that speaks of our identity, how we see ourselves, how we want to be seen, and our aspirations.