NZDF General discussion thread

[Nighthawk.NZ]

M.

we should have our own means to transport our own larger assets (eg NH90 and LAV etc) anyway)!

I would put a small caveat on it to be able to quickly transport them by air as we can transport them on hmnzs Canterbury...

 

[OPSSG]

Ditto Singapore - NZ could do more (and it is greatly frustrating that this particular NZG isn't doing much to strengthen the defence relationship - what happened to the idea that NZ would host periodic rotations of SAF combat aircraft as a compromise for not allowing permanent basing)?

1. What your NZ government says for a domestic audience and what the RSAF actually needs, given the pending closure of PLAB by 2030, are slightly different.

2. The US DoD understood the RSAF’s concerns and signed a Dec 2019 MOU for long term basing in Guam, to address these concerns. Construction to host a RSAF squadron, in Guam, has started. In the interim, the Americans ensure that when the RSAF deployed for a 2 month rotational deployment to Guam, they were able to hit multiple training objectives along with the RSN.

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(a) The Americans (both USAF and USN) also rolled out the red carpet by:​

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(i) hosting multiple periodic rotations of RSAF fighters in Andersen Air Force Base, Guam before construction is complete;​

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(ii) throwing in a decommissioned ship for our navy to sink in a joint training with the USN, to increase realism; and​

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(iii) having Guam host Singapore’s NDU for special operations and maritime counter-terrorism training (at land and at sea) along with the USN’s Coastal Riverine Group (recently renamed as Maritime Expeditionary Security Forces), and Explosive Ordnance Disposal detachments. Guam also has an excellent demolition live-fire range that is valued by our combat divers.​

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(b) To ensure that the RSAF gained as much training value as possible in the May to Jul 2021 deployment (2 months), the US Navy's VAQ 132 squadron (that operates the EA-18G Growler electronic warfare aircraft), also joined in the fun along with the USAF.​

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(c) Pacific Griffin 2021 had events both ashore and at sea, such as maritime special operations and maritime counter-terrorism training, anti-air defense exercises, anti-submarine warfare operations, and replenishments at sea serials.​

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1440916980781907968

3. Exercises Forging Sabre and Wallaby 2021 are being run concurrently in Mountain Home Air Force Base, Elmore County, Idaho, USA and in Shoalwater Bay, Queensland, Australia, respectively.

 

[ngatimozart]

Fully agree, the other defence procurement stuff-up was not acquiring the C-17's. This means NZ is still reliant on others for heavy air-lift (which means additional taskings and time-out for these allies).

If NZ could fix this, it would go some way to making a worthwhile contribution to the collective good (apart from the obvious - we should have our own means to transport our own larger assets (eg NH90 and LAV etc) anyway)!

There are two aircraft on the market that are able to carry both; the Airbus A400M and the KHI C-2. To fit the NH90 into the A400M you have to remove the rotor blades, rotor hub assembly, and the rotor shaft because of the height of the cargo hold. The cargo hold of the C-2 is the same height as the C-17A and only the rotor blades have to be removed. That is an transport requirement because of them being composite materials.

M.
I would put a small caveat on it to be able to quickly transport them by air as we can transport them on hmnzs Canterbury...

That is not a valid answer because Canterbury is not always available. For example it is on the hard in Singapore at the moment getting a belly rub and isn't due back until November. Define quick as well. A four day voyage isn't as quick as a four or five hour flight. It depends upon the urgency of the requirement.

 

[Nighthawk.NZ]

That is not a valid answer because Canterbury is not always available. For example it is on the hard in Singapore at the moment getting a belly rub and isn't due back until November. Define quick as well. A four day voyage isn't as quick as a four or five hour flight. It depends upon the urgency of the requirement.

The point is, we can still transport most of the time if needed I agree not all the time... and with second enhanced sealift vessel (ESV) will help...

My "Quickly" statement is agreeing with everyone ... by airlift, the LAV's and NH90 and any other equipment that does not fit in the Herc's... It's more a caveat/edit to the original statement... I wasn't saying Canterbury was quick... just saying it can transport them.

 

[ngatimozart]

The point is, we can still transport most of the time if needed I agree not all the time... and with second enhanced sealift vessel (ESV) will help...

My "Quickly" statement is agreeing with everyone ... by airlift, the LAV's and NH90 and any other equipment that does not fit in the Herc's... It's more a caveat/edit to the original statement... I wasn't saying Canterbury was quick... just saying it can transport them.

The point I'm really making, probably obliquely, and I know that you should get because you are not an officer is that we the AUKUS Pact means that we have to change how we look at and assess current and future NZDF capabilities. The current steady as she goes and do SFA or the absolute bare minimum no longer can be justified at all.

 

[Nighthawk.NZ]

The point I'm really making, probably obliquely, and I know that you should get because you are not an officer is that we the AUKUS Pact means that we have to change how we look at and assess current and future NZDF capabilities. The current steady as she goes and do SFA or the absolute bare minimum no longer can be justified at all.

I am not disagreeing, you are preaching to the converted... (not that I needed converting or anything) ;-)

 

[kiwi in exile]

The point I'm really making, probably obliquely, and I know that you should get because you are not an officer is that we the AUKUS Pact means that we have to change how we look at and assess current and future NZDF capabilities. The current steady as she goes and do SFA or the absolute bare minimum no longer can be justified at all.

We have needed to make this change before the AUKUS announcements.

 

[ngatimozart]

We have needed to make this change before the AUKUS announcements.

Yes we have, but our pollies and civil servants have been quite loathe to look at any changes. They must be horribly frightened of opening that box.

 

[ngatimozart]

Apparently Chinese authorities claimed to have found COVID-19 on NZ Kiwifruit in the city of Nantong, with some of the fruit from the batch having already been sold. The fruit was exported from the Bay of Plenty through the Port of Tauranga. During the growing, picking shipping to Tauranga, and loading aboard ship there were not any community cases of COVID-19 in the Bay of Plenty region or Tauranga. If the claimed infection is true, then it occurred after the fruit left NZ.

NZ kiwifruit reportedly tests positive for Covid in China

NZ exporters will be on edge after a shipment of kiwifruit reportedly tested positive for Covid-19 in China.

www.newsroom.co.nz

 

[aussienscale]

Apparently Chinese authorities claimed to have found COVID-19 on NZ Kiwifruit in the city of Nantong, with some of the fruit from the batch having already been sold. The fruit was exported from the Bay of Plenty through the Port of Tauranga. During the growing, picking shipping to Tauranga, and loading aboard ship there were not any community cases of COVID-19 in the Bay of Plenty region or Tauranga. If the claimed infection is true, then it occurred after the fruit left NZ.

NZ kiwifruit reportedly tests positive for Covid in China

NZ exporters will be on edge after a shipment of kiwifruit reportedly tested positive for Covid-19 in China.

www.newsroom.co.nz

It begins !! Watch this space, time for some popcorn, subtle but we all know the intent behind it !!

 

[Nighthawk.NZ]

Apparently Chinese authorities claimed to have found COVID-19 on NZ Kiwifruit in the city of Nantong, with some of the fruit from the batch having already been sold. The fruit was exported from the Bay of Plenty through the Port of Tauranga. During the growing, picking shipping to Tauranga, and loading aboard ship there were not any community cases of COVID-19 in the Bay of Plenty region or Tauranga. If the claimed infection is true, then it occurred after the fruit left NZ.

Sooooo.... it begins... but I am sure we will check and double check

 

[cdxbow]

Apparently Chinese authorities claimed to have found COVID-19 on NZ Kiwifruit in the city of Nantong, with some of the fruit from the batch having already been sold. The fruit was exported from the Bay of Plenty through the Port of Tauranga. During the growing, picking shipping to Tauranga, and loading aboard ship there were not any community cases of COVID-19 in the Bay of Plenty region or Tauranga. If the claimed infection is true, then it occurred after the fruit left NZ.

NZ kiwifruit reportedly tests positive for Covid in China

NZ exporters will be on edge after a shipment of kiwifruit reportedly tested positive for Covid-19 in China.

www.newsroom.co.nz

Was it frozen? If it wasn't frozen then it is very, very unlikely any virus would survive the trip. Not a credible story.
Enjoy the win-win dealing with the PRC.
What are they trying to make NZ do?

 

[ASSAIL]

Sooooo.... it begins... but I am sure we will check and double check

Easily fixed.
Have Jacinda praise Xi a little more and have her loudly condemn AUKUS And praise the Chinese inspectors for finding evidence on the fruit.
Trade will be back to normal in no time.

 

[spoz]

Of course, first all NZ citizens would be required to buy copies of the book containing Xi’s thoughts….

 

[Shanesworld]

Of course, first all NZ citizens would be required to buy copies of the book containing Xi’s thoughts….

What if you have a copy of mao's? Is that close enough? Ill just borrow helens.

 

[ngatimozart]

Was it frozen? If it wasn't frozen then it is very, very unlikely any virus would survive the trip. Not a credible story.
Enjoy the win-win dealing with the PRC.
What are they trying to make NZ do?

No they're fresh.

 

[Gracie1234]

A good example of how the CCP exerts pressure on our government to remind us to do things that make them happy. Once the Antarctic Treaty expires, things are going to get very interesting. The pressure will be very intense.
Our government needs to realise it obtains a lot of benefit from the security that our friends provide and need to actively support it. In the current situation, we can not have our cake and eat it too. Our friends in Asia are also looking at what we are doing. This is not just an AUKUS discussion.
The easiest political fix for the government is to signal the frigate replacement(4) and signal they are looking for one platform to operate also as the OPV replacement(3) as a Hi-Lo mix fleet.

 

[recce.k1]

Talking of Hi-Lo mixes and options. What if .... the ANZAC replacements were ordered "soon" (as per Wayne Mapp's comments etc) in order to have them in service within 10 years (shipyard build permitting), and what if funding for additional (3rd or 4th) vessels could be found by not acquiring replacement OPV's (transfering their fund allocations into a larger Frigate budget)?

Then instead when the replacement Frigates come into service, utilise the two ANZAC's as the OPV replacements (early 2030's), meaning the RNZN has an additional 2 combat capable vessels (which would serve well in home waters and within NZ's Pacific Realm eg dealing with "grey ships" in amongst international fishing fleets and keeping an ear out for submarine activities with its sonar, refitting of towed array and ship helo etc). These vessels would still undertake when necessary AoG functions (EEZ and border protection etc). The ANZAC's are meant to be good until the late 2030's, so replacement options wouldn't need to be considered for another 10 years (and by then the world situation would be alot more "clearer", even for our govt)!

This would of course free up the ANZAC replacements to support international efforts at the sharp ends, and allow for better ASW coverage in our region and beyond. (And would still need SOPV('s) for the Southern Ocean).

 

[Wombat000]

IMHO the first step in fixing capability deficits is to first define the reason to do so.
Please correct me if I’m wrong, but the NZ GOTD feels it doesnt ‘need’ to do anything.
It’s felt this way for a long time.
Its been allowed to live in this myopic utopia for a long time.

There is no external binding capability requirement for anything, other than domestic notions to push away occasional pesky fishermen and find the odd lost sailor.
Whatever NZ decides to field will be nothing more than it might think is the least it can get away with, and it will do it whenever it can no longer be postponed.

Sure, they say that they will play co-operatively with allies, but it will only bring what it’s got.
Its allies allowed this to happen.

We can raise the alarm of an iceberg approaching all we like, but if Govt has an optimistic crystal ball then it means nothing until a genuine linked capability framework is engaged with its partners.

 

[Arclighy]

Sure, they say that they will play co-operatively with allies, but it will only bring what it’s got.
Its allies allowed this to happen.

Allies can only do so much, and on defence and security matters the real work goes on behind closed doors. l'm sure allies have raised issues in the appropriate forum. It doesn't appear to have made much difference though. The NZ people through their elected NZ Governments have allowed this to happen. It is squarely on NZ's shoulder. Unfortunately, there doesn't appear to be any willingness to change things anytime soon, at least publicly.

@Arclighy @Wombat000

You are both entitled to you opinion but can I ask you dial down how you present it. You can state that you think NZ may do more but appearing to suggest that the NZ population as a whole is responsible for the current situation is likely to result in acrimony as nobody likes to see their country and people being 'told off' (as evident in subsequent responses). Australia certainly had a long period where the public did not give a toss about defence with both sides of government cutting things to the bone.

There are a lot of comments from NZ posters supporting the need for action .... this may take time to permeate to politicians.

alexsa