NZDF General discussion thread

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member

We’ve heard no word from the Beehive yet, but Defence Minister Peeni Henare may attend the 11th FPDA Defence Ministers’ Meeting and the 50th FPDA Anniversary celebration on October 21 at the RMAF Subang airbase near the capital of Kuala Lumpur.

Air Marshal Short who is overseas at present and has attended the Five Eyes Defence leaders meeting and will hopefully be attending as well.

Just so he can gently tell our part-time defence minister to sit in the corner with his Dragon Touch KidzPad Y88X and not say anything too embarrassing.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro

We’ve heard no word from the Beehive yet, but Defence Minister Peeni Henare may attend the 11th FPDA Defence Ministers’ Meeting and the 50th FPDA Anniversary celebration on October 21 at the RMAF Subang airbase near the capital of Kuala Lumpur.

Air Marshal Short who is overseas at present and has attended the Five Eyes Defence leaders meeting and will hopefully be attending as well.

Just so he can gently tell our part-time defence minister to sit in the corner with his Dragon Touch KidzPad Y88X and not say anything too embarrassing.
There was also a very recent South Pacific Defence Ministers Meeting which our part time DEFMIN was supposed to participate in, but don't know whether he did and no mention of it.

Addendum: Saw this on the Point of Order blog from last August as well. Apparently the Minister of Finance, Robertson, is pressuring the government to reduce the DCP funding by $4 billion.

 
Last edited:

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
There was also a very recent South Pacific Defence Ministers Meeting which our part time DEFMIN was supposed to participate in, but don't know whether he did and no mention of it.

Addendum: Saw this on the Point of Order blog from last August as well. Apparently the Minister of Finance, Robertson, is pressuring the government to reduce the DCP funding by $4 billion.


But NZ Govts have been telling us we not only pull our weight, we punch above it! Gees what a farken joke...no wonder the Aussie's have given up on us!
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
The punching above our weight BS is always rattled out in the politically popular HADR & UNSC Chp VI context and never in the combat context.

Which is very ironic really because those type of operations "punching" is not the kind of response required.

The political classes including civil service elites like Mr Bridgeman fail to realise that the nation state in a time of growing uncertainty needs to pivot from Soft Power noted by ddxx above into what Nye deemed as Smart Power, that nuanced balance of a sharp power and soft power approach.

From an external relations capability perspective NZ does pretty well in terms of Diplomacy, Intelligence through the benefit of FVEYS, and trade relationships (though that could be waning as our soft power loses its strategic efficacy).

However the 4th pillar of our external relations capability - Defence we are woeful as a regional contributor other than the extension of soft power connected HADR, SASO and UNSC Chp VI low capability operations.

Being great at that one trick military pony no longer cuts the mustard as time moves us forward into the uncharted waters of intensifying strategic competition. We offer little strategic weight to liberal democracy in the Indo-Pacific region.

Our nearest neighbour offers to our own security and the wider regional security much more than the modest combat capability blocks that we could offer as components to a serious conflict vignette in our part of the globe - a single AOR, 2 Anzacs, five C-130J's and 2 Boeings, four P-8A's, a couple of infantry battalions and an SAS regiment - noting that only a partial component of each of the above can ever be available.

This coming Defence Capability Plan will do and say basically nothing more than what we know already, but for pushing out the dates to acquire capabilities and will certainly not be the correct course of action that we require.

The issue comes down to the fact that we have fewer better capabilities than ever before and from 2024 the sole contributing combat assets of strategic projection in the our existential air-maritime domain are a single frigate and a couple of P-8A's.

Thirty five years ago this December 2nd Vote Defence (with no capital charge) passed in the HoR at over the $1 Billion mark for the first time. That was the year of NZDF Exercise Joint Venture which was a proof of concept exercise about the ability of the NZDF to rapidly project its own combat power into the Pacific.

During Exercise JOINT VENTURE in the Cook Islands in 1986 a New Zealand joint force landed force elements from New Zealand deployed with some urgency to Rarotonga airport and port facilities, which was to be used as a forward operating base and then push onto another island in the Cooks group. Units taking part included the frigates HMNZS CANTERBURY and WAIKATO as well as support vessel HMNZS Tui. RNZAF A4 Skyhawk strike aircraft were a core element in the rapid provision of air power supported by C130 Hercules, Orion, Andovers and Iroquois as well as the NZSAS, and element of troops from 1 RNZIR and logistic support from the NZ Army participated.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Soft Power wise, absolutely, defence wise is a very different story.
That was very true awhile back, but so much now as compared to 20 + years ago. Until our JSS ships and T-26s with their mission bays arrive, our Ocean HADR abilities are limited.
 

Depot Dog

Active Member

The reality of the RNZAF is sadder than what is on paper. Two of five hercules and one 757 is airworthy. The Orions are retiring and the P8 wont be delivered until 2023.

Then I read The Interview interview with Andrew Bridgman. Sourced @CJohn post
"Interoperability and capability with Australia is really critical, because we have to operate together. We have operated together historically and we operate together now if you look, for instance, at the recent evacuation mission to Afghanistan. If you look at our focus on the Pacific and the broader Indo-Pacific, our operations won’t always be joint but there will inevitably be a joint or at least strongly coordinated component to many of them.

The P-8A Poseidon maritime surveillance aircraft is an example of a joint capability, in this sense. We’ve also both got the Hercules, and we’re acquiring the new Bushmaster fleet from an Australian company – and the Australian Defence Force also use them. These capabilities make it really easy to operate together – and if I look at those three capabilities they make it easier to operate together in places like the Pacific."


Who is he kidding. To contribute with Australia your equipment has to be serviceable and ready. In reality his words are fantasy.

To top this off they want to cut the budget and delay projects.

This rips my heart out. My post isn't a slight about New Zealand. Just your polictical masters who are living in a fantasy world void of any reality.

Regards
DD
 

Depot Dog

Active Member
I hope when I write about NZ it is not interpertated as Kiwi bashing. That is not my intention. Nor is it a comment about a comparision with Australia. It is NZ sovereign right to spend its treasure how it chooses. No judgement from me.
To be fair on this forum if someone post a comment with a source. I do the right thing and read both to understand the point being made. Reading sources not trawling the web gave me the resources for the article. When I put two and two together my jaw dropped. That was my motivation to write it.
How many aircraft NZ chooses to have serviceable is your right. The word that Andrew Bridgman said are hollow. I know he is just giving out spin and he may be a good man to have a beer with. It just his statement Interoperability and capability with Australia is really critical. If that is true mean it with atleast the resources you have.

Regards
DD
 
Last edited:

chis73

Active Member
Regarding the present aircraft availability situation (if true, and I have no reason to doubt the report): The saddest part of it is that it is so utterly predictable. In my 2016 Defence White Paper submission (actually written way back in 2015), I recommended an increase in the number of squadrons to cover for the upcoming transition period of both 5 & 6 Sqns. As our squadrons are so small in respect to number of aircraft (6 & 5 respectively), they become operationally ineffective during changeover periods (due to crew retraining, airframe retirement, etc. etc.). That is why I wanted at least a flight of something like the C295 to bridge the gap (it could cover both maritime patrol and transport roles). The problem is only going to be exacerbated when the P-8 comes in (with only 4 aircraft in the fleet). The same principle applies to the rotary wing fleet as well.

I would like to see, from a force structure perspective, both the fixed-wing and rotary fleets based around (at least) a trinary system. For fixed wing: A Maritime Patrol squadron, a Tactical Transport Squadron, and at least a flight of aircraft (in addition) that could swing between either of those roles (ie. like the C295 with a modular payload system). For rotary: A medium transport squadron, a maritime helicopter squadron, and at least a flight of either an intermediate-size transport (preferably marinized to undertake OPV work) or a medium-size marinized transport (for naval logistics/transport work on Canterbury or Aotearoa, eg. a MH-60S type). With the trinary structure, the RNZAF/RNZN fleets could mutually support each other during transition (and other aircraft-type grounding) periods. I guess I played too much Diplomacy in college (mutually supporting forces were a great part of that game). Strategic Transport & Training Squadrons would be separate of course.

I also noted in my submission that the swing-role aircraft needed to be in place before the C-130 & P-3 replacements started. I wish somebody had listened.

As I said, the current situation is so entirely predictable (and therefore inexcusable). Blame Treasury and their foolish business model approach to Defence I say.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
I hope when I write about NZ it is not interpertated as Kiwi bashing. That is not my intention. Nor is it a comment about a comparision with Australia. It is NZ sovereign right to spend its treasure how it chooses. No judgement from me.
To be fair on this forum if someone post a comment with a source. I do the right thing and read both to understand the point being made. Reading sources not trawling the web gave me the resources for the article. When I put two and two together my jaw dropped. That was my motivation to write it.
How many aircraft NZ chooses to have serviceable is your right. The word that Andrew Bridgman said are hollow. I know he is just giving out spin and he may be a good man to have a beer with. It just his statement Interoperability and capability with Australia is really critical. If that is true mean it with at least the resources you have.

Regards
DD
Not at all DD. You are verbally bashing the same people I am also having a go at. There is zero sense of reality with them. Most of the current political class, the civil service, and the MSM are obsessed with this intellectually bankrupt concept of having "an independent foreign policy" which boils down to them avoiding doing anything to upset the PRC and they roll defence into that by cherry picking what they are willing to do with "partner" countries which for them is next to nothing on the combat contribution side with Australia, but all the lovely "feelz" stuff like HADR".

In their world interoperability means being able to do HADR, SASO and UNSC Chp VI events in the Pacific alongside Australia. And by Pacific they really only mean the Polynesian states - they are happy to leave Melanesia to you and our current Foreign Minister would struggle to name a single Micronesian State and has virtually no foreign travel experience. The Defence Minister is even more lacking in global knowledge and experience.

Andrew Bridgeman is a nice guy, but he has been shifted to Defence from Justice. Defence, international relations or national security is not his forte. He is simply an able administrator. He is not a Gerald Hensley, the last great DefSec.

As a secretary his job would be to write this letter on behalf:

Dear Australia,

Be rest assured. If you are attacked by the PRC, we will send a P-8A. Maybe a C-130J with an SAS element.

We are probably unlikely to send an Anzac as it will be too risky and could get sunk which would cause oil to leak and marine life would be harmed, which would not help combat climate change, our new first priority in defence in a combat sense.

We only have two Anzacs and they are there really only to train for when Australia gets attacked, not for actually helping when you do get attacked. We call that punching above our weight.

Kind regards, Jacindarella

PS: I will make a speech at the UN in support of a diplomatic solution for both sides and write a column for the Guardian.
 

chis73

Active Member
Regarding the present aircraft availability situation (if true, and I have no reason to doubt the report): The saddest part of it is that it is so utterly predictable. In my 2016 Defence White Paper submission (actually written way back in 2015), I recommended an increase in the number of squadrons to cover for the upcoming transition period of both 5 & 6 Sqns. As our squadrons are so small in respect to number of aircraft (6 & 5 respectively), they become operationally ineffective during changeover periods (due to crew retraining, airframe retirement, etc. etc.). That is why I wanted at least a flight of something like the C295 to bridge the gap (it could cover both maritime patrol and transport roles). The problem is only going to be exacerbated when the P-8 comes in (with only 4 aircraft in the fleet). The same principle applies to the rotary wing fleet as well.

I would like to see, from a force structure perspective, both the fixed-wing and rotary fleets based around (at least) a trinary system. For fixed wing: A Maritime Patrol squadron, a Tactical Transport Squadron, and at least a flight of aircraft (in addition) that could swing between either of those roles (ie. like the C295 with a modular payload system). For rotary: A medium transport squadron, a maritime helicopter squadron, and at least a flight of either an intermediate-size transport (preferably marinized to undertake OPV work) or a medium-size marinized transport (for naval logistics/transport work on Canterbury or Aotearoa, eg. a MH-60S type). With the trinary structure, the RNZAF/RNZN fleets could mutually support each other during transition (and other aircraft-type grounding) periods. I guess I played too much Diplomacy in college (mutually supporting forces were a great part of that game). Strategic Transport & Training Squadrons would be separate of course.

I also noted in my submission that the swing-role aircraft needed to be in place before the C-130 & P-3 replacements started. I wish somebody had listened.

As I said, the current situation is so entirely predictable (and therefore inexcusable). Blame Treasury and their foolish business model approach to Defence I say.
Oh, dang it! I meant 5 & 40 Sqn. Sorry, must be going senile or have a bad case of Friday-itis.
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The reality is that over the last 30 years the defence force has been whittled down from a state were with a little more effort it would present a significant deterrent or be useful in a combat situation. We have now reached the stage that even with a lot of effort it would take 10 to 20 years to re-establish a significant combat capability due to the loss of the inherent abilities and experience command structures to enable this to happen. We are never going to get the amount of warning to achieve much when we require this. As I have always said, before we get government department Items eg, patrol boats or aircraft capable of VIP etc we need to be capable of defending NZ for at least a limited period of time. This requires us to have good intelligence and surveillance and a means of neutralising anything that is a danger to us, whether sea or airborne. This is highly unlikely to happen unless we get a new political part focused on defense.
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
As a secretary his job would be to write this letter on behalf:

Dear Australia,

Be rest assured. If you are attacked by the PRC, we will send a P-8A. Maybe a C-130J with an SAS element.

We are probably unlikely to send an Anzac as it will be too risky and could get sunk which would cause oil to leak and marine life would be harmed, which would not help combat climate change, our new first priority in defence in a combat sense.

We only have two Anzacs and they are there really only to train for when Australia gets attacked, not for actually helping when you do get attacked. We call that punching above our weight.

Kind regards, Jacindarella

PS: I will make a speech at the UN in support of a diplomatic solution for both sides and write a column for the Guardian.

Mr C,

Good one, very good, sadly it would be even funnier if it wasn’t true.

I can see our response:

Dear Jacindarella,

Thank you very much for you letter, muchly appreciated.

Apologies for the delay in replying, there has been much laughter and rolling around on the floor, anyway.....

We have taken on board your offer of assistance, which also caused a lot of laughter and rolling on the floor too.

But we will pass on the offer, ok? We appear to have our hands full with dealing with the PRC, which of course means we are not in a position to offer you any assistance, ok?

We suggest you ask the populace to start preparing a stock pile of ‘white flags’ for when the PRC comes knocking on your door.

Cheers,

Australia

PS, the door is still slightly ajar for you to join the federation, ok? Times running out.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
Mr C,

Good one, very good, sadly it would be even funnier if it wasn’t true.

I can see our response:
John this is the real one - pre-prepared of course.


Andrew Fisher Building

1 National Circuit

Barton ACT 2600



Dear Jacindarella,


I am writing to thank you for the contribution of the P-8A aircraft during the recent attack on Australia.

We weren’t that taken aback that the your PRC friends also attempted to attack New Zealand at the same time and key islands in the South Pacific, including control over Niue, the Tokelau’s and the Cook Islands.

I bet you did not see that coming eh!

Luckily with help from the United States, Singapore, the United Kingdom, South Korea and Japan we were able to put a firm stop to that. Funnily enough the French helped out as well, which surprised everyone. Peter Dutton even smiled, which is a rare sight indeed.

Of course it did cost a fair bit, therefore we, the allied nations that fought this action to save our cherished liberal democracies, are well advanced in making arrangements for payment. Your’’s, that it is. To that effect my Treasurer Josh Frydenberg will be sending an invoice shortly.

Likely, to be a mix of cash and land. Haven’t worked out the full details but around 20% of your GDP in cash will be a starter. After all you guys back in the old Pre Helen days used to provide the Anzac clan, 20% of air combat, maritime ISR, frigates and a few other bits and bobs. I think the others are just after the land.

I understand Boris is keen on Christchurch and Canterbury for some reason, but Nicola Sturgeon is as usual kicking up a fuss about the Scottish being sold down the river and insists on getting Dunedin for the Scotts. The Welsh only want the All Blacks.

The Japanese want the Auckland’s North Shore and Eastern Suburbs but for obvious reasons, however they insist they don’t want West or South Auckland, and are insisting that the US have that. They have been pointing out to the America’s about them being more at home there as it will remind them of East St Louis or South Central LA. I also think they don’t want the Koreans as neighbors and have been telling them Porkies about their being no golf courses in that part of the city. So better not mention the Grange.

The Japanese are also insisting also that the Koreans have Wellington and were going on about Rico Faction, who I assume must be a Hurricanes player they don’t seem to like and Kobe, who must be the dead basketball player.

The French were very keen on Marlborough because of the wine, but the White House have firmly said Non. I gather because of the Waihopai GCSB station. So Looks as if the French will be getting Northland, which I suppose does have some historical connection as they tried to pinch it a couple of hundred years ago. Singapore wants Ohakea and Lake Taupo.

Of course us Aussies are having the Queenstown Lakes region. I’m looking forward to taking Jenny and the girls there next winter for some skiing, possibly looking at buying a lake front pile. Keep it a secret but a million fell out of Gina Rineharts blouse last time she was in my office when she was showing me her breaststroke technique. I think she was a bit pissed at the time and slurring. I offered to put it back but she said something about not bothering with small numbers or members or something.

By the way. Had a chat to Her Majesty and you’ve got a new Governor General. Tony Abbot. His wife Margie is a Kiwi and she is keen to come home for a bit.

More good news. Peter Dutton is deporting Russell Crowe.

Will be in touch soon.

Cheers,

Scomo.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
Can I just add that though the letter above is satirical there is an element of real politik truth to it and a precedent that from the 1st Gulf War when Japan was a no show, yet reaped the industrial and economic benefits of access to Middle East oil.

The Japanese were bluntly told by the Bush 41 administration to get out their chequebook and pay or their would be significant consequences including trade access into the US and other measures, a move endorsed by the UK. The Japanese offered a $1 Billion. That would not do said the Americans.

In the end Japan ended up paying $13 billion dollars or 20% of the cost of Desert Storm.

New Zealand like Japan last century is what Pharr (2003) described as following a “low-cost, low-risk, benefit maximizing strategy in pursuit of its national interests" and to paraphrase Calder (1988) and Yasutomo (1995) a when writing of Japan post war - New Zealand post Cold War is “reactive state content to assume a passive, low-profile, chiefly economic role in world affairs, eschewing the use of military force as an instrument of state policy and relying on the United States (Australia) for its security."

Until the Gulf War in 1990, the Japanese people post WW2 and the Constitution were content to see themselves as a peace-loving state (heiwa kokka) while relying on the U.S. umbrella for its security. It became a significant tenant of the countries identity, a political and emotionally invested sacred cow. Post Cold War 1.0, and most definitely post 2000, New Zealand when it comes to defence has abandoned its “pragmatic multilateralist” approach that it took Post War to the folly of an “independentist” or "selectivist" role identity approach to its defence relationships with other liberal democracies, demonstrated by the present low cost - low risk - low profile defence stance and the "exceptionalist" moral superiority and the conspicuous expression of moral values that underpins this. It is a folly because it fails to understand or even contemplate that the moral of what happened to Japan in 1991 with respect to the Gulf War will not happen to them. It will.

Suddenly, Japan was faced with unprecedented pressure from the United States and the international community to join the multinational forces and make a “human contribution” befitting its status as a powerful international player. Japan could no longer remain a passive spectator of world events, but was expected to contribute to the new world order alongside other major powers. In this vein, the effect of the Gulf crisis on Japanese foreign policy should not be underestimated. It has been termed “a watershed” for Japanese security policy, thrusting issues of identity to the fore and occasioning a process of self-reflection and foreign policy restructuring that continues to make an impact upon Japanese foreign policy today. (Dobson 2003; Hook 1996).
 
Top