New details on FREMM AAW variant

[contedicavour]

One important detail : the French may call DDGs the Leygues but they are just ASW FFGs perfectly comparable with Maestrale and Type 23.

I agree that it is likely that some sort of Gowind will replace the remaining Avisos, thus making up for the now almost certain cut of several French FREMMs.

cheers

 

[Spacearrow99]

During an interview, in the Summer 2007; Herve Morin, the French minister of defense clearly stated that France's defense effort would be maintained around 2%.(lefigaro). Envisaged programs would increase investment by approximately 40%, during the next six years; these programs would bring French defense spending above 2% of GDP. (lefigaro)

The new French military law "la loi de programmation militaire 2009-2014" will take the French military through the next six years. This law will be published sometime in March 2008.

It seems that procurement spending will be increased by 40%, during the next six years. All 3 major French armed forces branches will be fighting for procurement funds, but it looks like the MN will have a pro defense government.

 

[contedicavour]

During an interview, in the Summer 2007; Herve Morin, the French minister of defense clearly stated that France's defense effort would be maintained around 2%.(lefigaro). Envisaged programs would increase investment by approximately 40%, during the next six years; these programs would bring French defense spending above 2% of GDP. (lefigaro)

The new French military law "la loi de programmation militaire 2009-2014" will take the French military through the next six years. This law will be published sometime in March 2008.

It seems that procurement spending will be increased by 40%, during the next six years. All 3 major French armed forces branches will be fighting for procurement funds, but it looks like the MN will have a pro defense government.

Yes but this is all too optimistic. Several times the pluri-annual defence spending programme has been cut on a yearly basis. Don't forget that the budget deficit is tight and that the GDP is growing less than forecasted...
and , last but not least, the cost of some programmes such as CVF carry a high risk of overspending. Hence the rumours about cuts in numbers of FREMMs for example.

cheers

 

[neil]

Are the French, like the Brits, heading towards a situation where they will be able to deploy only one carrier group and one amphibious group at a time.. and while doing this, they won't have enough surface combatants and submarines left to fulfill their normal patrol tasks? ..or will their surface fleet be sufficient do accomplish all this?

It seems to me that a buy of 10 odd FREMM's wont be enough..

 

[kato]

Yes but this is all too optimistic. Several times the pluri-annual defence spending programme has been cut on a yearly basis. Don't forget that the budget deficit is tight and that the GDP is growing less than forecasted...

Indeed. Here is the last (2003-2008) defence plan, from which the longterm number 17 of the FMM/FREMM program is coming (as well as 4 Horizons, 120 Tiger helos, 28,200 FELIN sets etc pp).
We can see how reliable such defence plans are...

I'm still curious about what the 2009-2014 plan will entail though

 

[Spacearrow99]

Well, Ségolène Royal is not in power,so you have to be optimistic. France's current governent is pro defense. Like I said, the number of Fremms will be cut. Fillon, has stated that current Defence Spending Review would involve tough choices. The French Navy and Air force are more important than the French Army in today's environment. The French Army could receive larege procurement cuts.

The Horizons are well overbudget. The two Fredas will very good replacements. The contract of the next 4 Fremms is to be signed in 2011; the contract for the last 5 in 2013. DCNS has some carrier construction experience now, after constructing the CDG. The PA2 should have fewer problems, but there will be some overspending.

If the MN only builds 10 Fremms? The ASW Fremms can launch Scalp Naval. They will have 16, A43 launchers and 16, A70 launchers. The AVT probably would be scrapped, but they may be equipped with 32, A70 launchers. In this scenario, the La fayettes should be refitted with ASW systems and VL Crotale. Thales and DCNS hope that the DGA finances VL Crotale tests in 2009. Smaller presence vessels may be constructed. I'm not deluding myself. If a reduction of the FREMMs is actually considered, the money thus “saved” will not be inevitably reallocated with defense or in any case replace the Fremms with other projects. I don't think Sarkozy would make such drastic Fremm cuts. Sarko has announced that France will have deficits atleast till 2010.

This would make me happy.

2 Horizons
2 Fredas
10-12 Fremms
5 Upgraded La Fayettes
6 Gowind 200s

 

[Spacearrow99]

Three George Legyues class frigates: the Dupleix, Montcalm, and Jean de Vienna are each equipped with 2 Sadrals launchers. The MN may replace one of the frigates Sadrals with simbads. The Sadrals would be placed on the Horizons; the simbads form the Orage, would replace Sadrals on the stripped George Legyues frigate.

 

[contedicavour]

This would make me happy.

2 Horizons
2 Fredas
10-12 Fremms
5 Upgraded La Fayettes
6 Gowind 200s

Agree. This sounds reasonable and fundable.
I wonder though whether all 60 Rafales Marine can be funded... if not I'd rather keep the Lafayette as they are and arm very lightly Gowinds. The navy also has by the way the Floreal big OPVHs.

cheers

 

[kato]

The navy also has by the way the Floreal big OPVHs.

Plus the 10 P400 small OPVs, the 3 OPV54, and the other two small (Sterne, Grebe) and one big OPV (Albatros), all of which are relatively new.

 

[harryriedl]

Agree. This sounds reasonable and fundable.
I wonder though whether all 60 Rafales Marine can be funded... if not I'd rather keep the Lafayette as they are and arm very lightly Gowinds. The navy also has by the way the Floreal big OPVHs.

cheers

i thought it was cut to 51 aircrafts to pay for upgrades to the Rafs ages ago

 

[swerve]

i thought it was cut to 51 aircrafts to pay for upgrades to the Rafs ages ago

No, a production order for 59 aircraft for both air force & navy was cut to 51 (officially deferred to a later order, not cancelled) to pay for AESA radar development.

 

[Spacearrow99]

The CDG will embark 24 to 25 rafales, and the PA2 will embark 32 rafales. Sixty rafales will be ordered; the last rafale will enter service in 2016. However, unavailabilities for maintenance and breakdowns, pilot training and the estimated losses over 30 years of service force the us to envisage a capacity close to twice higher than the number of machines having to be projected. (meretmarine)

In the 10 Fremm scenario, the La Fayettes should be uprgraded. They have the place for ASW systems. The MN surface fleet is overworked. The upgraded La Fayettes would lessen the MN's ASW vessels workload. The MN could order 6 Gowind 120s for its presence role.

The MN has 24 dedicated OPV vessels. The MN also has two Armais class OPVs.

 

[European]

So?
MN will cut the number of Fremm 17->10?
40% less?

 

[Spacearrow99]

I think we should know about possible Fremm cuts, sometime shortly after the PA2 announcement in March 2008.

 

[kato]

The MN could order 6 Gowind 120s for its presence role.

Or expand the OPV fleet with a heavier-armed Floreal variant... (would be hell of a lot cheaper).

Add a second pair of Exocet, a sonar and fire-control radar and maybe some tubes, and install a pair of VL Mica containers somewhere along the superstructure (maybe going down a bit on the RIB/LCVP load instead). Six ships for let's say €1.5 billion should be doable.

But of course that would be neither hyper-modern nor sexy...

 

[Spacearrow99]

The MN would want vessels with low radar signatures. DCN has claimed that a completely battle-ready version Gowind 200, would cost 200 million Euros. I don't believe the company's statement. There would be many cost overruns, but the Gowind 120 should cost much less than the two other Gowind types.

The Gowind 120 doesn't have any ASW systems; its equipped with mine avoidance sonar.( a full sonar could be added) The Gowind 120 basic armament includes a 57 mm gun and VL Mica or Aster 15. The DGA probably will finance the VL Crotale tests for 2009. The corvettes probably would be built sometime after 2014. That would give engineers, all the time they need to intergate VL Crotale into the Gowinds weapon systems. The range of the Gowind 120, is 2000 nm at 15 kts. Export orders would lower the price of the Gowinds. Bulgaria and DCNS are negotiating a deal for 4 Gowind 200s.

 

[Spacearrow99]

The First batch of Fremms cost is 3.5 billion Euros; the last nine vessels esimated cost is 2.95 billions euros. The DGA is hopes that construction cost of the PA2 want exceed 2.5 billion euros. The Fremm batch I esimated cost per ship is 440 ME. The Fremm batch II estimated cost per ship is 330 ME.

If the French government cuts the second batch? The Fremm contract has forfeit clauses in the event of cancellation. It would be necessary to add several tens of million of euros to the bill of the first Fremms. (meretmarine)

The Sarkozy government is pro defense, so they will listen to the MN. They will probably order the 5 Fremms is 2011, and cancel the last order in 2013. If the MN puts ASW systems and VL Crotale on the La Fayettes, they would have 21 ASW, AVT, and AAW vessels.

If the Sarkozy government only builds 8 Fremm? Sarko, Fillon, and Morin would be as naive as Ségolène Royal. The idea of borrowing surface combatants from other navies is stupid. The Fremms will protect French strategic submarines, and air and amphibious groups. The frigates will also have a presence role. (meretmarine)

 

[Spacearrow99]

France will launch the PA2 project in 2008. (meretmaine) France's military budget will be increased next year.

 

[contedicavour]

France will launch the PA2 project in 2008. (meretmaine) France's military budget will be increased next year.

The order for the carrier is good news indeed.

However (there's always a "however" ) the spending allocation (engagements) is up by an impressive 0.5% vs year ago
and there are no commitments to spending for more Barracuda SSNs other than the 1st of class (to be named Suffren like the old destroyer).

We'll have to wait for the White Book on defence matters to see what impact the spending on the CVF will have on the other naval programmes.

cheers

 

[Spacearrow99]

The Sarkozy governement is pro defense; "Peace thru strength" was one of the main points of Sarko's speech a the UN. I don't see any large MN procurement cuts.