New details on FREMM AAW variant

[contedicavour]

.

Confirmed orders:

17- 19 Fremms (AAW, ASW, LA) 6 Barracuda SSN, 27 NH90, 230 Scalp naval, 20 Rafales

Probable Orders:

PA2, new AORs

Nope, the confirmed FREMM orders are for the first batch of 8 ships (starting with the ASW variant). The confirmed Barracuda order is for 1 SSN.
The rest of the contract will have to be finetuned and the rumour is that 13 FREMM in all will be ordered to help pay for PA2 and Barracudas.

cheers

 

[harryriedl]

Nope, the confirmed FREMM orders are for the first batch of 8 ships (starting with the ASW variant). The confirmed Barracuda order is for 1 SSN.
The rest of the contract will have to be finetuned and the rumour is that 13 FREMM in all will be ordered to help pay for PA2 and Barracudas.

cheers

how many AOR are in French service and will more need to be procured for the PA2?
the FREMM procurement won't be helped by Sarko reducing the percentage of defense spending as well as TWO very expensive programs and adding another FREMM type of FREMM with associated R&D costs[and isn't as effective as the Horizon class] seems like madness to me:shudder

 

[kato]

how many AOR are in French service and will more need to be procured for the PA2?

Doubt they'll need more, the current support fleet was enough in times when they operated both Foch and Clemenceau still.

Current primary support ships are 4 Durance class AOR (5,200t fuel, 3,000t aviation fuel, 150t ammo, 350t cargo). A fifth ship of the same class, active when France still had two CBGs, was sold to Argentine. The Jules Verne ADH, a maintenance/light support ship, also occasionally sortied with the Foch CBG in the late 90s btw.

There was originally a replacement plan for the Durance class for 2008-2010 (Jane's), but i can't find much details right now. I would suspect that has been postponed, as it's not mentioned in the "Projet de loi de programmation militaire 2003–2008" either. Will probably be in the next 5-year plan (2009-2013), which the government is working on now.

 

[Spacearrow99]

All six of the Barracudas will be ordered; the MN has stated that six is limit, if current operational capabilties are to be kept. I leftout two very important and expensive procurement projects in my last post. An advanced, long-range version of the ASMP, known as ASMP-A or ASMP+, and M51 SLBM will enter service in 2010. With all of these big procurement projects, I don't see how Sarkozy can lower defense spending? Sarkozy has said, he would keep defense spending at 2% of GDP; it will increase in the coming because of the big procurement projects.

The MN may cut the total number of Fremms, but their DDGs are overworked. At this point, there're no concrete facts on the total Fremm numbers. The Horizon class is not as effective as the T-45 with Sampson radar.The MN doctine is totally different than the RN or MM; all three have there advantages and disadvantages.

The MN had 5 Durance class AORs when the Foch and Clemenceau were still operational.

 

[kato]

The MN had 5 Durance class AORs when the Foch and Clemenceau were still operational.

The Durance class is separated into three sub-classes:

• Durance, a dedicated AOR (PRE), carrying 7,500t FFO, 1,500t diesel and 500t TR5 Avcat for aircraft
• Meuse, a dedicated CBG AOR (PRE), carrying 5,000t FFO, 3,200t diesel and 1,800t TR5 Avcat for aircraft
• Var, Somme and Marne, "command" AORs (BCR) with staff facilities accomodating 45 flag officers; as AOR, carrying 8,400t diesel (or 5,090t FFO and 3,310t diesel) and 1,050t TR5 Avcat for aircraft

Meuse has always been the only "CBG-dedicated" AOR in the MN, even when Durance was still around. Durance was assigned to the GASM (ASW group) from 1992 until she went into reserve 1997. Before that, she was assigned to the Mediterranean Squadron, until its dissolution in 1992.

 

[European]

For the last time,you can't compare MM and MN CBGs. The Mn has 3 E2Cs per CBG.

Why not? European navies are all comparable order of magnitude, more or less. You can compare RN, MM, MN or AE and you can say that MN is the best one. Probably, but the order of magnitude remains similar. At the opposite You can't compare the USNavy with any navy of the world.... The order of magnitude is too much huge.....
Actually Mn has 1 CBG, 3 E2C and the dream for a new carrier and a new CBG.

The AAW Fremm is a more flexibe design then Horizon; it will have A70 launchers that can be loaded with scalp naval.

The MMI Fremm will have A70 too, but the gouvernment has not uet decided if buy Scalp Naval.
The Fremm AAW will not have Scalp. The Fremm AVT (Ground attack) will have. The Fremm lacks of vls and you want to put Scalp insteed of Aster 30??? What kind of AAW will be with few AAW missiles and Scalp Naval????

DCN has stated that it can replace 2 of the first batch of normal Fremms with the two of AAW Fremms. The S1850 radar would make the Fremm very top heavy.

That's true, the S1850 is a good long range radar. It's a sin that Fremm AAW will not be fitted with S1850 cause there's no place for such a heavy radar on the Fremm.

The AAW Fremm will have 32 vls forward, and 16 aft.

Where exactly? There's no place for S1850 and you want to put also 16 more vls???

The French will pay a ton of money for new ships, equipment, and weapons over the next 15 to 20 years.

Confirmed orders:

17- 19 Fremms (AAW, ASW, LA) 6 Barracuda SSN, 27 NH90, 230 Scalp naval, 20 Rafales

Probable Orders:

PA2, new AORs

Yeaaaahhh, why not? Do you remember the 24 frigates George Leygues of 1980 later reduced at 6-8????????
At the moment France payed only 8 Fremm.

Dreams for a PA2 at today.

Is that true that the french Horizon will not have Sadral/Mistral cause lack of money, so nothing as CIWS at the moment?
The 2 MM Horizon has already the 3rd 76mm has CIWS mounted.

 

[kato]

Yeaaaahhh, why not? Do you remember the 24 frigates George Leygues of 1980 later reduced at 6-8????????

Remember the post-Vietnam French building spree (mid/late 50s to early/mid 60s)?
The 45 ships of the EE, ER and AE escort series' program (18 DE + 18 corvettes + 9 FFL) all built during those 10 years?

Which actually all materialized in the numbers planned, and more advanced than originally planned.

 

[Spacearrow99]

The MN has the 3 E-2Cs per deployment (will be increased to 4). The RN and MM would need atleast 3 or 4 AWW DDGs per CBG to eqaul the scanning range of the E-2Cs. They want have 3 to 4 AWW DDGs per CGB per group The French government will announce their decision on the PA2 in the Spring of 2008; its very likely the they will approve the project.

Yes, S1850 is a good long range radar, but the Fremm doesn't need it. I haven't seen any evidence that disproves Thales's data. We don't know exactly were the 16 aft vls will be placed yet. They will ony have 4 AAW DDGs.

There,re many reasons why I think there want be huge Fremm cuts. The Fremm's point defense capabilities are excellent. The MN's DDG fleet is very old and expensive to maintain. Fremms will have smaller crews, and there will be export orders for them lowering their price per unit. Two or three of the Fremms may be cut thats it. They have to DCNS busy. Sarkozy has been complaining to other EU member states on how little they spend on defense. I highly doubt Sarkozy will cut defense spending.

The Fremms wiill never operate alone. They can mix their weapons for missions. I know nothing about possible Sadral cuts to the Horizons. The Scalp Naval has been ordered check the article.

Le marché des Scalp Naval notifié à MBDA 08/01/2007 meretmarine

 

[kato]

I know nothing about possible Sadral cuts to the Horizons.

He is correct though. There were originally two Sadral planned on the hangar. The first was cut to accomodate a second jammer, the second has not been acquired yet due to funding problems (at least as of October 2006).

Btw, to get back to European's cost question, the official budget report says 2.033 billion for the entire French Horizon program without PAAMS, which is the same number Mer et Marine quotes in that 2007 article.

 

[Systems Adict]

...You can compare RN, MM, MN or AE and you can say that MN is the best one.

:dunce

...Sorry to be Johnny dimwit here chaps, but any chance of actually using the Full terminology just once, then putting the acronym in brackets next to it. I've read thru the thread & it's been like that since the 1st post.

I'm not trying to pick holes, or ruin the thread (as you've got a fair discussion going which will continue for a bit yet...), it's just I use T & FLA's (Three & Four Letter Acronyms), all bleeding day at work & trying to decipher/differentiate what each one means in comparison to what I use the same letters at work for does make reading the thread a bit difficult.


:help



Ta much


Systems Adict

 

[Spacearrow99]

The RN is the best navy out of the three because of its oveall assets. The RN has more SSN, and more capable major surface combatants than the MN; the MN is not that far behind. The MM has the third best fleet in the EU.



The Sadral launchers should be installed on the Horizons. They're carrier battle group AAW destroyers; they need a extra layer of protection.


RN- Royal Navy
MN-French Navy
MM-Italian Navy

 

[contedicavour]

I don't really care about ranking navies (besides, on which criteria ?), but there is a considerable risk of going top-heavy. I'll explain myself : with the UK, France and Italy simultaneously investing heavily in aircraft carriers and powerful DDGs there isn't enough money for the workhorses of all navies, ie the multi-purpose FFGs.
Rumours here are mounting that not more than 8-10 FREMMS will be built in France, in Italy firm orders for 2 ships will be added to 4 more (and then who knows for sure), and the RN is stuck with old Type 22s and with Type 23s that are weak on AAW and that will be old around 2025...

cheers

 

[kato]

there is a considerable risk of going top-heavy. I'll explain myself : with the UK, France and Italy simultaneously investing heavily in aircraft carriers and powerful DDGs there isn't enough money for the workhorses of all navies, ie the multi-purpose FFGs.

Personally, i already see the FREMMs as "top-heavy" - consider that these "frigates" will be larger than the destroyers they'll replace (Georges Leygues) or supplant (De la Penne). Especially since France wanted to replace the 1250t avisos with them as well.
Italy at least keeps smaller stuff, as i understand it.

A 8-ship FREMM ASW/LA class for France (fit as needed) wouldn't be that bad - replacing the 9 current ASW destroyers (plus two AAW to replace the Cassards).
As long as something smaller/cheaper to replace the Avisos (and the Lafayettes) could be found.

 

[harryriedl]

Personally, i already see the FREMMs as "top-heavy" - consider that these "frigates" will be larger than the destroyers they'll replace (Georges Leygues) or supplant (De la Penne). Especially since France wanted to replace the 1250t avisos with them as well.
Italy at least keeps smaller stuff, as i understand it.

A 8-ship FREMM ASW/LA class for France (fit as needed) wouldn't be that bad - replacing the 9 current ASW destroyers (plus two AAW to replace the Cassards).
As long as something smaller/cheaper to replace the Avisos (and the Lafayettes) could be found.

aren't the Lafayettes meant to be a partial replacement for the Avisos [colonial frigerts] i know their an order of magintude larger but don't they do the same job ?

 

[European]

If really the french Horizons will be fit without Sadral, then there will be a great damage, cause that means that the french Horizon AAW will lack the CIWS that is a pure....... no comment.
The italians have already installed the 3rd 76mm as CIWS on board their 2 Horizons.

In Italy Fremm will not replace De La Penne.
Rumors that due to high costs of the 2nd aircraft carrier, the number of Fremm in France will be reduced to 10 out of 17.
If the MN will cut the number of 50% the costs for units will rise and the MN will pay their Fremm a cost similar to the italians. The difference will be that italian Fremm are better equipped and better fitted.

It'a worth noting that for Fremm programme the 2 parts (Italy and France) signed an agreement to charge the cost of R&D of fremm project, over the first 2 of each navy.
That means that the first 2 fremm for Italy and the first 2 fremm for France will be the most expensive and will be charged of all the R&D cost of the project.

 

[kato]

aren't the Lafayettes meant to be a partial replacement for the Avisos [colonial frigerts] i know their an order of magintude larger but don't they do the same job ?

Officially, the FREMM project replaces the F67 and F70 ASW destroyers and A69 avisos. Effectively though, by the time the FREMM project would be complete (2020+), the 5 Lafayettes will be between 20 and 25 years old, and the MN would already have to think about replacing them 10 years or so down the line.

The 5 Lafayettes pretty much replaced the first 7 decommissioned Avisos, but there are still 9 of them in service - and pretty active, in a variety of roles in which they are rather useful (like escort roles in certain areas like the Red Sea, and similar-risk areas). These 9 that are still in service are now between 23 and 28 years old, so they'll need a further replacement within the next 10-15 years minimum (i.e. somewhat in the same timeframe as the FREMM project). Meaning a 6-7 ship FF project on the lines of the Lafayette project at least.

In Italy Fremm will not replace De La Penne.

That's why i said supplant. I know that the second Horizon pair is supposed to be the replacement for the De la Pennes.

 

[Spacearrow99]

The French DGG fleet is overworked because they are lacking units. That's why the MN wants to replace the remaining 69 avisos with Fremms. The contract of the next 4 Fremms is to be signed in 2011; the contract for the last 5 in 2013. The MN is going to probably order 13 or 14 Fremms; those figures don't include the AAW Fremms. The MN will order the second batch of Fremms, but the majority of the third batch will be cut.

There're cheaper options for the replacements of the 69 avisos. I think a combination of the Gowind designs would be really good replacements for the 69 avisos.

Bulgaria is finalizing it's contract negotiations with DCNS for 4 Gowind 200s. If the Bulgarians sign the contract? The French government will opt for the Gowinds to replace the cut Fremms.

 

[European]

The French DGG fleet is overworked because they are lacking units. That's why the MN wants to replace the remaining 69 avisos with Fremms. The contract of the next 4 Fremms is to be signed in 2011; the contract for the last 5 in 2013. The MN is going to probably order 13 or 14 Fremms; those figures don't include the AAW Fremms. The MN will order the second batch of Fremms, but the majority of the third batch will be cut.

There're cheaper options for the replacements of the 69 avisos. I think a combination of the Gowind designs would be really good replacements for the 69 avisos.

Bulgaria is finalizing their contract negotiations with DCNS for 4 Gowind 200s. If the Bulgarians sign the contract? The French government will opt for the Gowinds to replace the cut Fremms.

It seems that due to high cost of the 2nd aircraft carrier, the Fremm will be 8-10 in MN.
Very bad idea to save money without put a CIWS on Horizons. Such expensives ships can not be under protected. At least the italian have their 76mm Super Rapido with the special ammo 'Davide' for short range AA defense.

 

[Spacearrow99]

I haven't seen any French government information or media articles that confirms those rumours.The French DGG fleet is really overworked; the MN cannot maintain their operation levels with 8 to 10 Fremms. The total number of France's major surface combantants would be 21 or 22 when you add the 13 to 14 Fremms. I have talked to several French naval offciers; the MN will be pushing hard for their Fremms.

The French governement will cut the Fremm numbers, but there want be drastic cuts. Sarkozy is championing economic development. I doubt his governement would make huge Fremm cuts. The Gowind designs are complete. Five or six Gowinds would be good replacements for the 69 avisos. I think we should know about possible cuts, sometime shortly after the PA2, announcement in the spring of 2008.

 

[harryriedl]

Officially, the FREMM project replaces the F67 and F70 ASW destroyers and A69 avisos. Effectively though, by the time the FREMM project would be complete (2020+), the 5 Lafayettes will be between 20 and 25 years old, and the MN would already have to think about replacing them 10 years or so down the line.

The 5 Lafayettes pretty much replaced the first 7 decommissioned Avisos, but there are still 9 of them in service - and pretty active, in a variety of roles in which they are rather useful (like escort roles in certain areas like the Red Sea, and similar-risk areas). These 9 that are still in service are now between 23 and 28 years old, so they'll need a further replacement within the next 10-15 years minimum (i.e. somewhat in the same timeframe as the FREMM project). Meaning a 6-7 ship FF project on the lines of the Lafayette project at least.



That's why i said supplant. I know that the second Horizon pair is supposed to be the replacement for the De la Pennes.

was their any reason why the Laffayets didn't replace all the Avisos [it just seems a bit half baked replaceing half and keeping the others in service]