New details on FREMM AAW variant

[Spacearrow99]

The Fremm program was not in existence in 2002. I will go by the Thales information. Come on, we are talking about 5 year old proposed values. Look whats happening to LCS program, much can happen in 5 years. By the time the Fremms become operational that information we be 8 years old.

 

[Spacearrow99]

The AAW Fremms computers will be upgraded; so they can engage as many targets at the same time as the Horizons. The Fremms are far from being the perfect platform, but they are a huge upgrade. Compared to their present AWW DDG force.

 

[European]

The AAW Fremms computers will be upgraded; so they can engage as many targets at the same time as the Horizons. The Fremms are far from being the perfect platform, but they are a huge upgrade. Compared to their present AWW DDG force.

That's Thales propaganda.
Don't believe that.
If that's true it will be better for french MN to sell the 2 Horizons to Italian MM and buy more capable french FREDA. Cheaper, more modern, more capable, etc.....
The truth, bitter to accept, is that the true AAW class frigates capable to protect the 2 aircraft carriers (PA2+CdG) are the Horizon class suited with true capable radars (Empar+S1850) and equiped with 48 (+16 optional vls) Aster 30. A navy that claims to be a blue navy can't permit to have a weak AAW defense. When there will be a Horizon in maintenance who will protect the fleet against the lot of SU-30MK that Rosomboronexport is selling through the world? Cassard with Tartar and SM1 (50km of radius) or a doubtly efficient FreDA with a radar capable to see an 747 to 200 km, but not a small modern and dangerous fighter before 100 km????
FreDA can be a good option compared to the old Cassard/Bart with Tartar and SM1. Honestly also LaFayette class or the Singapour frigates fit with Herakles are far superior to Cassard/Bart.

FreDA are the tipycal today compromise that in long term will be considered an error and a waste of money (they are supposed to remain in service til 2040).

I believe (my personal opinion) that the choice of FreDA is more under pressure of national industry (FreDA are easyer to export than Horizon) and cause the MN knows that will never efforts to operate 2 aircraft carrier on the same time. An example was the twin Foch and Clemenceau, they never were used at the same time as aircraft carriers. Always 1 in sailing, and the other in the harbour or some exception when Clemenceau operates has aircrafts carrier and Foch as helicopter carrier.
When decommissioned Foch was 30 years but was similar a brand new carrier..... Good for Brasil

 

[kato]

Maybe you should look at how the MN actually uses AAW ships a bit first.

With regard to carriers, French CBGs tend to go into maintenance as a "group". I.e. you'll probably see a Horizon attached to each future CBG, and that's it. They might take part in some exercises outside their CBG, but won't be "available" to protect other deployed assets much.

The rest of the MN does not have much need for Theater AAW. France's permanent operational commands (COMAR MANCHE, CECMED, ALINDIEN, ALPACI, CECLANT) all operate in zones where there is no given permanent serious air threat warranting a AAW assignment.
The only operational use for AAW ships in the MN is with the action groups, i.e. Groupe Aeronavale and Groupe Amphibie. The Groupe Amphibie does not have escorts permanently assigned, and i doubt they will in the future. Neither does the Groupe Amphibie even need much in the way of escorts, especially AAW, for most of its missions.

Keeping two FreDA as "flexible" escorts for taskforces is enough to fit France's needs, in particular as these would primarily only be used to escort amphibs.

 

[European]

Well,
6 Type 45 for 2 CVF are too much?
It seem that RN would prefer to have at least 8.
Why?

FreDA are compromises. Calling it 'flexible' doesn't change too much.

 

[kato]

FreDA are compromises. Calling it 'flexible' doesn't change too much.

I meant "flexible" in the sense that the MN can attach them as AAW escorts as needed, unlike ships semi-permanently assigned to a naval group. This is a role that they only have a single Cassard for right now, btw.

Well,
6 Type 45 for 2 CVF are too much?
It seem that RN would prefer to have at least 8.
Why?

If you look at the RN force structure, they effectively have a third "carrier" that needs a semi-permanent escort (HMS Ocean). With 6 Type 45, the RN would have 4 "ready" - out of which 2 at least will be preassigned to escorting the (3) carriers. Leaving 2 at most for the rest of the (numerous) RN amphibs and the rest of the fleet.
The numbers aren't really all that different.

 

[contedicavour]

My only hope is that our active phased array version of EMPAR (supposed to be ready by 2011) will allow our FREMM to perform well in AAW.
Since the sad truth is that we either get AAW FREMM or we remain with 2 Horizon and 2 De la Penne.
With 10 FREMM (ASW & ASUW), 2-4 U212A, 22 F35B, 2 AOR, 1 big LHD, 54 NH90 to be paid over the next 15 years I don't see how we can add even a single Horizon to the bill... I actually envisage that 2 of the 10 FREMM will be AAW, and that any AAW improvement (via real DDGs) won't be discussed before 2020 (and the deletion of the De la Pennes)

cheers

 

[European]

My only hope is that our active phased array version of EMPAR (supposed to be ready by 2011) will allow our FREMM to perform well in AAW.
Since the sad truth is that we either get AAW FREMM or we remain with 2 Horizon and 2 De la Penne.
With 10 FREMM (ASW & ASUW), 2-4 U212A, 22 F35B, 2 AOR, 1 big LHD, 54 NH90 to be paid over the next 15 years I don't see how we can add even a single Horizon to the bill... I actually envisage that 2 of the 10 FREMM will be AAW, and that any AAW improvement (via real DDGs) won't be discussed before 2020 (and the deletion of the De la Pennes)

cheers

Yeaaahh that's true. At least MN has decided the way to go. 2 Horizons+2 Fremm AAW + 2 Cassard update.

The MM risks to remain only with 2 Horizons and 2 DlP update

 

[contedicavour]

Yeaaahh that's true. At least MN has decided the way to go. 2 Horizons+2 Fremm AAW + 2 Cassard update.

The MM risks to remain only with 2 Horizons and 2 DlP update

Except that the cassard update is needed to keep them sailing until the fremms arrive, so the situation is just as critical.
At least our DLPs carry Aspides and 3 Strales 76/62 to supplement SM1 and are 5 years younger than the Cassards.

cheers

 

[harryriedl]

Except that the cassard update is needed to keep them sailing until the fremms arrive, so the situation is just as critical.
At least our DLPs carry Aspides and 3 Strales 76/62 to supplement SM1 and are 5 years younger than the Cassards.

cheers

the MM has more time to replace its Durand de la Penne class and it better armed and has more hull life.
i thought that DLP was being replaced by horizon class

do the cassards have helo hanger in the pictures of it i couldn't see one?

 

[kato]

do the cassards have helo hanger in the pictures of it i couldn't see one?

Official:

Hangar (12,50 x 9 m) et plate-forme (16,20 x 11 m) pour hélicoptère avec système de manutention SAMAHE-10 (Système Automatique de Manutention des Hélicoptères Embarqués)

 

[Spacearrow99]

The Horizons are just about operational, and they're a huge upgrade over their present AAW DDGs. It would be stupid to sale them when the AAW Fremm is in the developmental stage. France has a bluewater navy; they have E-2Cs. MM and RN AEW cover is not as capable as the MN's. You have to include CDG Air Group when you are talking about French CBG protection. The MN new point defense layer has a longer range, in terms of detection and missiles. When Horizons are unable, load AAW Fremms with Aster 30 use several normal Fremms for point defense. The MN defense sytems are networked.


The Foch operating costs were high, and its a small carrier. The PA2 will be 3 times its size.

D 614 Cassard and D 615 Jean Bart will be replaced in 2018 by the AAW Fremms.

 

[European]

The proof that there is something strange.
The same source report 2 differents price for the Horizon:

Here is 2.7 bilions € for 2 Horizons:
En définitive, le coût des deux frégates françaises, les Forbin et Chevalier Paul, atteint 1.9 milliard d'euros, auquel il faut ajouter le coût du système d'armes. La Marine nationale estimant le budget total à 2.7 milliards d'euros, le prix de ce dernier serait donc d'environ 800 millions d'euros

http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=105325


Here is 1.6 bilion €. There's written 800 milion € at unit:

La commande de la troisième Horizon était d'ailleurs prévue dans la loi de programmation 2003-2008. Le coût très élevé de ces navires (800 millions d'euros pièce) est la raison principale de cet abandon.


http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=144

 

[Spacearrow99]

Ordering the 3rd and 4th Horizons would be good for the MN. The AAW Fremms are less capable then the Horizons in the AAW role (32 vls to 48 vls). The AAW Fremms Herakles radar range will be increased. The MN has 3 E-2Cs in French CBG (will increase to 4). MM and RN have to have larger numbers of Horizons and T-45s for air cover.

The Fremm is more flexibe. THe land attack Fremm will carry drones and Scalp Naval. Both normal versions are very good point defense platforms in a CBG; the MN can choose their air defense armament (Aster 15 and/or Aster 30) when they're on CBG duty. The French CBG will be well protected especially compared to its present form.

probable Future French CBG:

CDG, 1 Land Attack Fremm, 1 AAW Fremm, 1 Forbin, 1 ASUW Fremm

The French Amphibious Groups have far less protection then their CBGs. If the Horizon and AAW Fremms were in dry dock, the normal Fremms point defense capabilities is a massive upgrade over is current DDG fleet. They may have to built more AAW Fremms.

 

[kato]

The AAW Fremms are less capable then the Horizons in the AAW role (32 vls to 48 vls).

The rear VLS on the FREMM would be used for SAM as well, bringing them to 48 VLS cells (32 forward, 16 aft) as well.

probable Future French CBG:
CDG, 1 Land Atrack Fremm, 1 AAW Fremm, 1 Forbin, 1 ASUW Fremm

Doubt the AAW Fremm. CdG has always sortied with only one AAW escort. Forbin should be enough.

Typical CdG CBG in the last couple years has been (*):
CDG, 1 AAW (F70 AA), 1-2 ASW (F67 ASW or F70 ASW), 1 SSN (Rubis), 1 AOR (BCR)

I could see one FREMM AVT and one FREMM ASW replacing the two F70 ASW, but not more really.

@ European: The two articles were written two years apart, in 2005 and 2007. The newer article does point out that the cost of the Horizon program has risen to its current numbers, and that therefore acquiring FREDAs is far more economical.

----
(*) Generalized example for common makeup of TF 473. 2nd F70 ASW has also been switched for a Type 23 on two tours, and has been left out completely in other tours. Composition is generally pretty much like that though.
CdG has occasionally sortied with a more AAW in exercises, but the CBG was then generally part of a larger fleet. In 2004, CdG sortied with 3 AAW for 2 months for a wargame against the Indian Navy during Mission Agapanthe (Jean Bart, Duquesne, HMS Gloucester as AAW); the fleet also included a LPD, and several ASW and patrol ships.

 

[European]

@ European: The two articles were written two years apart, in 2005 and 2007. The newer article does point out that the cost of the Horizon program has risen to its current numbers, and that therefore acquiring FREDAs is far more economical.

Not exactly,
that's an article of October, 26th, 2006:

http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=102722

Ces bâtiments sont donc équipés de matériels extrêmement performants et complexes, qui justifient en grande partie le coût particulièrement élevé de ces quatre unités : 2 milliards d'euros hors PAAMS.

4 Horizon (2 IT+2FR)= 2 bilion € without PAAMS.
It means that a single Horizon without PAAMS is 500milions €.
The total cost of R&D of PAAMS it's been shared between Italy, France and Uk and til today it's been spread on 11-13 sets of PAAMS (4 Horizon+1 Cavour+ 6-8 Type45).

The italian budget for 2 Horizon including the cost of PAAMS it's been of 1,6 bilion €. Project Horizon it's been shared 50% between Italy and France.
Fincantieri estimated 800 milion € at each the 2nd deleted batch of Horizon for MM.

The total cost of 2 FremmAA actually estimated from DCNS is 1.1 billion €. It's easy to suppose that the 'estimated' for a new project (FremmAA) will rise the price during years, while a existing project (Horizon) is less sensitive to a rise of price.

That's seems a clever manouvre of DCNS to discredit the Horizon project as too much expensive and to begin development (so new delay and future rise of price...) of a new Fremm AA that will be easyer to export.

Another question.
Fremm has no place for a radar S1850, so could someone explain to me where DCNS wants to put the additional 16 VLS (that are heavy!!!) ?
I'm scaried to read in 2011 that th cost of FremmAA will rise due to cost of research and that there will be not place for the additional 16 vls fo Aster 30.
A Fremm with Herakles and 30 vls for Aster 30 will be a good 'half size' AAW friegate escort.

 

[harryriedl]

The rear VLS on the FREMM would be used for SAM as well, bringing them to 48 VLS cells (32 forward, 16 aft) as well.



Doubt the AAW Fremm. CdG has always sortied with only one AAW escort. Forbin should be enough.

Typical CdG CBG in the last couple years has been (*):
CDG, 1 AAW (F70 AA), 1-2 ASW (F67 ASW or F70 ASW), 1 SSN (Rubis), 1 AOR (BCR)

I could see one FREMM AVT and one FREMM ASW replacing the two F70 ASW, but not more really.

@ European: The two articles were written two years apart, in 2005 and 2007. The newer article does point out that the cost of the Horizon program has risen to its current numbers, and that therefore acquiring FREDAs is far more economical.

----
(*) Generalized example for common makeup of TF 473. 2nd F70 ASW has also been switched for a Type 23 on two tours, and has been left out completely in other tours. Composition is generally pretty much like that though.
CdG has occasionally sortied with a more AAW in exercises, but the CBG was then generally part of a larger fleet. In 2004, CdG sortied with 3 AAW for 2 months for a wargame against the Indian Navy during Mission Agapanthe (Jean Bart, Duquesne, HMS Gloucester as AAW); the fleet also included a LPD, and several ASW and patrol ships.

i was wondering weather when PA2 is integrated in the fleet it will have more than one AOR as it is conventionally powered and will have more need of an AOR than GdG. despited the increased bunkerage.

also how frequent is the intergeneration of RN ship in the MM

 

[kato]

As for the second AOR, yeah, would be needed. The Foch CBG usually had two AORs as well.

also how frequent is the intergeneration of RN ship in the MM

In the MN, with the CdG CBG?

Foreign CdG escorts, other than for joint exercises:

2004, March to May - HMS Gloucester (Type 42) (deployment)
2006, February to May - HMS Lancaster (Type 23) (deployment)
2006, June - HMS Nottingham (Type 42) (exercise)
2007, February - Blas de Lezo (Spanish F100) (escort to Djibouti)
2007, March - HMS Sutherland (Type 23) (deployment)

 

[Spacearrow99]

For the last time,you can't compare MM and MN CBGs. The Mn has 3 E2Cs per CBG. The AAW Fremm is a more flexibe design then Horizon; it will have A70 launchers that can be loaded with scalp naval. DCN has stated that it can replace 2 of the first batch of normal Fremms with the two of AAW Fremms. The S1850 radar would make the Fremm very top heavy. The AAW Fremm will have 32 vls forward, and 16 aft.

The French governement is pushing for the AWW Fremm. The project makes finanicial sense. The basic design of the AAW Fremm is set. They just need to add a 16 more vls, and upgrade the AAW Fremms computers. There shouldn't be big cost overruns. The French site meretmarine is very accurate; I trust there reporting that the Horizon is over budget. The MN is networked the the Fremms can carry Aster 30. There will be a Land atack and ASW Fremm in the French CBG.

probable Future French CBG:

CDG, 1 Land Attack Fremm, 1 AAW Fremm, 1 ASUW Fremm 1 SSN (Rubis), 1 AOR (BCR)















The French want to export the AAW Fremm which is smart. The Horizon doesn't have that big of an advantage in capablities compared to the AAW Fremm. They will get export Fremm orders which would lower the price per unit of the Fremms. The MN coud order more Fremms or they could use the savings on other projects. Like the MN. the RN and MM air defense doctrine has imperfections. The RN and MM use helos for AEW. They can transform the V-22 into a AEW platform, but it would cost much money, and take a long time to develop.

I want

 

[Spacearrow99]

For the last time,you can't compare MM and MN CBGs. The Mn has 3 E2Cs per CBG. The AAW Fremm is a more flexibe design then Horizon; it will have A70 launchers that can be loaded with scalp naval. DCN has stated that it can replace 2 of the first batch of normal Fremms with the two of AAW Fremms. The S1850 radar would make the Fremm very top heavy. The AAW Fremm will have 32 vls forward, and 16 aft.

The French governement is pushing for the AWW Fremm. The project makes finanicial sense. The basic design of the AAW Fremm is set. They just need to add a 16 more vls, and upgrade the AAW Fremms computers. There shouldn't be big cost overruns. The French site meretmarine is very accurate; I trust there reporting that the Horizon is over budget. The MN is networked the the Fremms can carry Aster 30. There will be a Land atack and ASW Fremm in the French CBG.

probable Future French CBG:

CDG, 1 Land Attack Fremm, 1 AAW Fremm, 1 ASUW Fremm, 1 SSN (Rubis), 1 AOR

Like the MN. the RN and MM air defense doctrine has imperfections. The RN and MM use helos for AEW. They can transform the V-22 into a AEW platform, but it would cost much money, and take a long time to develop. The French want to export the AAW Fremm which is smart. The Horizon doesn't have that big of an advantage in capabilities compared to the AAW Fremm. They will get export Fremm orders which would lower the price per unit of the Fremms. The MN could order more AAW Fremms or use the savings on other projects. The French Navy needs more large class oilers; they only has 4 Durance class fleet oilers. They will need to be replaced in the near future.

The French will pay a ton of money for new ships, equipment, and weapons over the next 15 to 20 years.

Confirmed orders:

17- 19 Fremms (AAW, ASW, LA) 6 Barracuda SSN, 27 NH90, 230 Scalp naval, 20 Rafales

Probable Orders:

PA2, new AORs