Modernization in TNI - Air Force

A

Aussie Digger

Guest
dreamwarrior73 said:
if spare parts and range and requirement of bombers are the issue. then Su-27/30 is the right solution at lower cost because:

1. Su-27/30 already in TNI-AU service. by right some kind of spare parts supply chain is in place.

2. Su-27/30 have the range that TNI-AU required.

3. Su-30 is a fighter bomber.

4. Su-27/30 is the fighter with prestige and edge that TNI-AU is looking for.
Su-27/30 are in-service with TNI-AU. 2 examples of each.

Whilst similar they are NOT identical. Being somewhat different creates pressures on the logistical chain that are simply unnecessary.

Nor are they cheap to buy, maintain or fly. The spare parts train is FAR from assured not so much due to political concerns but moreso because of an inability to supply as required.

In addition to this their availability rates from all reports, even in Countries that CAN afford to arm and support them properly (which Indonesia currently can't) is very ordinary and far inferior to most Western fighters.

No matter how good a fighter on paper, if it's on the ground it's useless.

For these reasons I'd still argue for a rationalised fleet of F-16's or alternatively late model MiG-29SMT variants, supported by multi-role tanker/transport aircraft. Later variants are fitted with in-flight refuelling probes to extend the range.

Indonesia may be able to equip it's C-130's with an in-flight refuelling system with the savings made by rationalising on a single fleet of fighters, with a hose and drogue system to support MiG-29 being relatively easily installed on the C-130. This would provide the range benefits of the larger SU-30 fighter, but offer greater flexibility.
 

beleg

New Member
I also agree that F-16 is a great plane for Indonesia, It can replace the Hawks and F-5s efficiently and with low prices compared to Su27/30s. However it might be wise to buy some more of these aircraft to ease the logistic issues. Indonesia with its enourmous natural resources has more to loose than Singapore if it doesnt maintain a strong armed forces.
 

410Cougar

New Member
After reading everything that you gents have posted, I think that the best resolve for Indonesia would be some earlier block F-16's that could be upgraded because of the recent testing and modifications done over at Nellis.

I also think that there may be the opportunity for some price dealing to go on with the USA given all the natural disasters that have happened in Indonesia over the last couple of years like the Tsunami, the recent earthquake and the volcano that is set to blow.

Having said all that, perhaps it would be better for Indonesia to acquire more means to help its people via cargo helicopters and other means by which to move people who are in danger zones or who are affected by natural disaster that much more quickly.
 

Big-E

Banned Member
410Cougar said:
Having said all that, perhaps it would be better for Indonesia to acquire more means to help its people via cargo helicopters and other means by which to move people who are in danger zones or who are affected by natural disaster that much more quickly.
I agree with this statement. Forget purchase of new attack aircraft, they need to get more cargo lift and humanitarian aid assests. After the Tsunami and now this earthquake their own lack of air-lift is TNI's greatest weakness. The people come first, then defense.
 

wzhtg

New Member
re

Actually why not consider Gripen or maybe even mirage. Both are great fighters. The only problem i forsee is that mirage line is coming to an end while the gripen contends some parts which are from US so if there's an embargo there might be a problem.
 

410Cougar

New Member
wzhtg said:
Actually why not consider Gripen or maybe even mirage. Both are great fighters. The only problem i forsee is that mirage line is coming to an end while the gripen contends some parts which are from US so if there's an embargo there might be a problem.
I think in many ways you kind of answered your own question! If the Mirage line is coming to an end, then it will be harder for the Gov't. to look after what would already be an aging fleet that they acquire from some country.

As for the Gripen, the bigger thing is can they actually afford the newer models, and in my opinion, the answer is no. As much as there may be some type of embargo from the US and maybe at some point from the UN (if there is already please advise) then it's there because the gov't failed to look after its own people during times of need and devastation.

I don't know how the Indonesian Gov't could possibly explain to its own people why they got new fighters to defend an ocean boundary when the people within those boundaries are suffering far more than anyone else in the world.
 

marxist_command

New Member
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  • #27
Big-E said:
I agree with this statement. Forget purchase of new attack aircraft, they need to get more cargo lift and humanitarian aid assests. After the Tsunami and now this earthquake their own lack of air-lift is TNI's greatest weakness. The people come first, then defense.
So, maybe purchasing some C-17 or C-130 will be a great deal for now?
 

isthvan

New Member
marxist_command said:
So, maybe purchasing some C-17 or C-130 will be a great deal for now?
They need larger helicopter fleet, squadron or two of new Mi-17v7 would be great and you can buy them for one C-17… They also need larger fleet of CN235 transports.
 

kilo

New Member
i would go with fighters from france like mirage 2000, super etendard, and rafales
eventually replacing the super etendards with new rafales.
 

410Cougar

New Member
In remote areas I don't know if Indonesia has runway capabilities to handle Hercs and C-17's - someone in the know please advise?

I would go with the transport helicopters and simply choose whoever will give the country the best deal. They need the operational capability to deliver aid to places which, at least according to the news that I watch, are often times in such thick jungle or ravaged by water that they wouldn't be able to land a thing with wings over there, save an Osprey which we all know they can't afford.
 

Pusser01

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
410Cougar said:
Having said all that, perhaps it would be better for Indonesia to acquire more means to help its people via cargo helicopters and other means by which to move people who are in danger zones or who are affected by natural disaster that much more quickly.
I have to concur with the above. IMO Indoesia should first probably get all its C130 airborne. Most of them are currently grounded due to lack of spares. With the easing of sanctions by the US, procurement of spare parts for the Hercs should be one of the main concerns for the TNI.
 

Big-E

Banned Member
Pusser01 said:
I have to concur with the above. IMO Indoesia should first probably get all its C130 airborne. Most of them are currently grounded due to lack of spares. With the easing of sanctions by the US, procurement of spare parts for the Hercs should be one of the main concerns for the TNI.
Looks like instead of repairing their heavy lift assets they are buying brand new Skytrucks.:(

http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/article_006299.php
 

Supe

New Member
C17's would be cost prohibitive. I agree with comments on getting their Herc fleet back in business.

According to The Jakarta Post, the Indonesians are planning on buying a further six Sukhois.

http://www.thejakartapost.com/yesterdaydetail.asp?fileid=20060606.H02

Air Force to buy six more Sukhois

National News - June 06, 2006

M. Taufiqurrahman, The Jakarta Post, Jakarta

The Indonesian Air Force has unveiled a plan to upgrade its aging combat squadron by buying six Sukhoi warplanes from Russia in a trade deal worth an estimated US$1 billion.

Air Force commander Air Chief Marshall Herman Prayitno told the House of Representatives' Commission I on defense and foreign affairs the six aircraft would be ordered from Russia over the next 10 years to form a new combat squadron.

Separately on Monday, Defense Ministry secretary general Lt. Gen. Sjafrie Sjamsuddin said the Finance Ministry had given the go-ahead for the planned Sukhoi purchases.

Sjafrie told detik.com the ministry had earmarked US$1 billion in export credits to finance the planes.

Herman said this time the Air Force would be more careful when buying the Sukhois and would ensure they met the country's and international aviation standards.

"I am not blaming my predecessors who bought Sukhois that were not compatible with our systems. Our orders will be made according to universal aviation standards so that (the aircraft) can communicate with the existing fleet," he said.

The Indonesian Military (TNI) bought four Sukhois from Russia earlier last year in a trade deal.

However, the warplanes did not come equipped with missiles or universal operating systems and have stayed idle in Air Force hangars.

Herman said the Air Force also planned to build a reconnaissance squadron comprising the locally assembled CN-235 aircraft.

He said the existing squadron, consisting of three Boeing aircraft, was unable to perform proper missions across the sprawling archipelago.

"CN-235 aircraft assembled by state aircraft manufacturer PT Dirgantara Indonesia are able to cruise at a lower altitude and are therefore more reliable for surveillance missions," he said.

As part of its commitment to help the ailing aircraft manufacturer, the Air Force wanted future contracts with foreign vendors to involve PT Dirgantara, especially for maintenance work, he said.

A 1992 U.S. ban on lethal arms supplies to Indonesia, meant for more than a decade the TNI bought arms from Russia and other Eastern European countries.

That ban was lifted last year but Herman said despite this, the Air Force still had problems ordering from U.S. weapons companies.

He expected U.S. government clearance for the Air Force to buy arms from U.S. vendors would only be given by the year's end.

"We expect that the administrative backlogs resulting from the ban will take one and a half years to be settled by the U.S. government," he said.

Herman said the Air Force had repeatedly asked the U.S. Embassy here to encourage the government to speed up the purchase procedures.

"It all boils down to cumbersome bureaucratic procedures."

Lawmaker Happy Bone Zulkarnain of the Golkar Party questioned the U.S.'s sincerity about lifting the ban.

"If the U.S. government did really lift the ban, why isn't it making an effort to clear the barriers for us to buy arms," he said.
 

scraw

New Member
Supe said:
C17's would be cost prohibitive. I agree with comments on getting their Herc fleet back in business.

According to The Jakarta Post, the Indonesians are planning on buying a further six Sukhois.
Meh, seems like more ego over actual effect.
 

410Cougar

New Member
I really don't understand these 2 deals at all, they are more money than they have to spend and on equipment which won't be effective for them at all. IMHO, the US doesn't want you to buy arms because you as a country can't even put money in to look after your own people. You could have easily struck some type of deal with the US about refitting and maintaining your Herc fleet and yet you choose to put even more money into new planes that will be ready when? And where are those Hercs going to end up now?

I'm sure those Sukhoi's will look great flying overhead as people get covered in molten lava and villages are eradicated. How much foreign aid has been poured into your country due to all the natural disasters in the past and the big one that'll come by years end?
 

mmmbop

New Member
USD1billion for 6 Sukhoi?they going mad?

As for their intention of acquiring fighter rather than lifting their sick transport plane, this probabaly due to the fact most of it's neighbouring country it's modernising their airforce with 4+ aircraft.conventional threat seems minimal but several incident especially regarding border and island dispute may alarmed them.still,i also believe they should modernise and double their SAR equipments
 
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Subangite

New Member
mmmbop said:
USD1billion for 6 Sukhoi?they going mad?
Malaysia signed a deal to purchase 18 Sukhoi SU-30MKM jet fighters for almost $1 billion, thats the MKM version with European avionics. How come Indonesia is only getting 6 aircraft? This can't be right, did the journalists put in extra zeros on to that figure?
 

marxist_command

New Member
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  • #38
Subangite said:
Malaysia signed a deal to purchase 18 Sukhoi SU-30MKM jet fighters for almost $1 billion, thats the MKM version with European avionics. How come Indonesia is only getting 6 aircraft? This can't be right, did the journalists put in extra zeros on to that figure?
Really?But did it mach if 1 billion $ for fully equipment Sukhoi?
 

mmmbop

New Member
Well,Malaysia get all plane fully equipped as well.coupled that with avionics from Thales,Damocles pod,Bars radar,armament include A-A and A-G missile including KH31.so if Indon really goes for USD1bil for 6 aircraft..something is damn wrong..
 

Subangite

New Member
mmmbop said:
Well,Malaysia get all plane fully equipped as well.coupled that with avionics from Thales,Damocles pod,Bars radar,armament include A-A and A-G missile including KH31.so if Indon really goes for USD1bil for 6 aircraft..something is damn wrong..
Also the current RMAF MiG-29N is wired for R-77 and the new batch of SU-30 MKM will also be able to mount the same AAM, so on this point I think there is going to be commonality within the RMAF inventory.

The USD $1 Billion for 6 SU-30 aircraft for the TNI-AU, what packages are involved for it to cost so much?
 
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