JF-17 Thunder / FC-1 / Super-7 Discussions

[P.A.F]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

P.A.F.,
How can you even compare the BiG 21 Bison's with the JF-17? JF-17 - engine unknown, radar unknown, armaments unknown. And how do you say that the LCA is inferior to the JF-17/MiG21 Bison?

i didn't say that the LCA was inferior to the JF-17. they are in more or less the same class matey. What i am going to say however is that the Bison is NOT superior to the JF-17. If it was then the PAF would have cancelled the program long ago.

 

[srirangan]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

What i am going to say however is that the Bison is NOT superior to the JF-17. If it was then the PAF would have cancelled the program long ago.

We can't say. Too little info about the JF17 so far. Ofcourse Pak will try to make the JF17 as potent as possible, let's discuss this when more info is out.

 

[P.A.F]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

We can't say. Too little info about the JF17 so far. Ofcourse Pak will try to make the JF17 as potent as possible, let's discuss this when more info is out.

Sure

 

[SU 30MKI]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

aaaditya, just give it up man. admit that the JF-17 is superior to the bison. no point in all these comparisons. at the end of the day i'm sure pakistan isn't spending millions on an aircraft which is at the bottom end of the IAF. And if you say that its superior then it's sure is superior to the LCA.

The JF-17 Thunder fighters in service with the PAF will be fitted with the Italian Grifo S-7 fire-control radar, which has 25 working modes and a non-break-down time of 200 hours. The radar is capable of look-down, shoot-down, as well as for ground strike, but lacks multi-targets tracing and attacking capability.

The Italian Grifo-7 fire-control radar, I-band, detect-range of 55km.

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]By Yihong Chang, JDW correspondent, 1st March 2002

Italy’s FIAR SpA is using Asian Aerospace 2002 to promote the Grifo S-7 airborne radar for China’s FC-1 fighter.

The Grifo S-7 has more than 25 modes, including air-to-air and air-to-surface functions. Its guaranteed in-service mean time between failures (MTBF) is 220 hours. However, no further details have been released so far.

A source from FIAR also said that the company bid three different types of airborne radar system for China’s J7 fighter upgrade programme: the Grifo-MG, Grifo-MK2 and Grifo-7. These three systems have basically the same features and all have air-to-air and air-to-surface modes. The air-to-air operation includes searching and single target tracking, while the air-to-surface operation includes ranging and so on. The Grifo-MK2 has a weight of 56kg, operates in the X bands and has an MTBF of 200 hours. It also has look down and look up functions.[/font]
http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/fc1.asp
http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/j7e.asp
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]http://www.powmadeak47.com/cx/cxch020301radar.html.[/font]

All these shows that JF-17 , lacks multi target tracking and engaggment capability .

Kopyo Radar :
Number of simultaneously tracked/engaged targets 10/2
Mean cycles between failures, h 200
http://warfare.ru/?linkid=2422&catid=334

Well Man i don't know from which angle you are saying it JF-17 is superior, here the technical parameter are showing something else, even blind man can tell the difference by seeing Radar details,

you see during 90's no countryis supplying plane to Pak, so pak don't have any option but to invest in making plane even it s inferior, it has no choice.

you heard the phrase" Beggers are not choosers" like when Pak don;t have any option to get plane it has to invest in making the plane. not matter what outcome of it.

 

[webmaster]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Folks, this is a FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17 thread. No where does it say that compare it with another fighter jet. Do we all understand that or shall I spell it out and write it up in hindi/urdu?

If you are interested in comparisons, just open up another thread with appropriate subject or search the forums. There are plenty of threads on this matter.

 

[P.A.F]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

The JF-17 Thunder fighters in service with the PAF will be fitted with the Italian Grifo S-7 fire-control radar, which has 25 working modes and a non-break-down time of 200 hours. The radar is capable of look-down, shoot-down, as well as for ground strike, but lacks multi-targets tracing and attacking capability.

The Italian Grifo-7 fire-control radar, I-band, detect-range of 55km.

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]By Yihong Chang, JDW correspondent, 1st March 2002

Italy’s FIAR SpA is using Asian Aerospace 2002 to promote the Grifo S-7 airborne radar for China’s FC-1 fighter.

The Grifo S-7 has more than 25 modes, including air-to-air and air-to-surface functions. Its guaranteed in-service mean time between failures (MTBF) is 220 hours. However, no further details have been released so far.

A source from FIAR also said that the company bid three different types of airborne radar system for China’s J7 fighter upgrade programme: the Grifo-MG, Grifo-MK2 and Grifo-7. These three systems have basically the same features and all have air-to-air and air-to-surface modes. The air-to-air operation includes searching and single target tracking, while the air-to-surface operation includes ranging and so on. The Grifo-MK2 has a weight of 56kg, operates in the X bands and has an MTBF of 200 hours. It also has look down and look up functions.[/font]
http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/fc1.asp
http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/j7e.asp
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]http://www.powmadeak47.com/cx/cxch020301radar.html.[/font]

All these shows that JF-17 , lacks multi target tracking and engaggment capability .

Kopyo Radar :
Number of simultaneously tracked/engaged targets 10/2
Mean cycles between failures, h 200
http://warfare.ru/?linkid=2422&catid=334

Well Man i don't know from which angle you are saying it JF-17 is superior, here the technical parameter are showing something else, even blind man can tell the difference by seeing Radar details,

you see during 90's no countryis supplying plane to Pak, so pak don't have any option but to invest in making plane even it s inferior, it has no choice.

you heard the phrase" Beggers are not choosers" like when Pak don;t have any option to get plane it has to invest in making the plane. not matter what outcome of it.

France, China and the UK where sure ready to provide planes to pakistan during the 90s but pakistan decided to turn them down. (so your wrong there mate).
Instead they went on to build the JF-17. so don't go saying things that u don't even know about matey.
secondly i will not comment on JF-17 Vs Bison as sri has said that there is too little info for comparison.

 

[SABRE]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

even blind man can tell the difference by seeing Radar details

No you are wrong. Blind man cant tell any thing unless he is a good listner but that will also make your point "point less"

Grifo will be only fitted on early versions of JF-17. We excepted because we are getting ToT fot it from Italians. Advance versions will not be fitted with Grifo.

Early versions would be more of trainers.

All the specifications you read on the net are basic FC-1 (chinese version) design not JF-17s (Pak version), once PAC starts production it will put western avionics & weapon system along with it.

 

[P.A.F]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Folks, this is a FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17 thread. No where does it say that compare it with another fighter jet. Do we all understand that or shall I spell it out and write it up in hindi/urdu?

If you are interested in comparisons, just open up another thread with appropriate subject or search the forums. There are plenty of threads on this matter.

where cool:dance3

 

[aaaditya]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

The JF-17 Thunder fighters in service with the PAF will be fitted with the Italian Grifo S-7 fire-control radar, which has 25 working modes and a non-break-down time of 200 hours. The radar is capable of look-down, shoot-down, as well as for ground strike, but lacks multi-targets tracing and attacking capability.

The Italian Grifo-7 fire-control radar, I-band, detect-range of 55km.

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]By Yihong Chang, JDW correspondent, 1st March 2002

Italy’s FIAR SpA is using Asian Aerospace 2002 to promote the Grifo S-7 airborne radar for China’s FC-1 fighter.

The Grifo S-7 has more than 25 modes, including air-to-air and air-to-surface functions. Its guaranteed in-service mean time between failures (MTBF) is 220 hours. However, no further details have been released so far.

A source from FIAR also said that the company bid three different types of airborne radar system for China’s J7 fighter upgrade programme: the Grifo-MG, Grifo-MK2 and Grifo-7. These three systems have basically the same features and all have air-to-air and air-to-surface modes. The air-to-air operation includes searching and single target tracking, while the air-to-surface operation includes ranging and so on. The Grifo-MK2 has a weight of 56kg, operates in the X bands and has an MTBF of 200 hours. It also has look down and look up functions.[/font]
http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/fc1.asp
http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/j7e.asp
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]http://www.powmadeak47.com/cx/cxch020301radar.html.[/font]

All these shows that JF-17 , lacks multi target tracking and engaggment capability .

Kopyo Radar :
Number of simultaneously tracked/engaged targets 10/2
Mean cycles between failures, h 200
http://warfare.ru/?linkid=2422&catid=334

Well Man i don't know from which angle you are saying it JF-17 is superior, here the technical parameter are showing something else, even blind man can tell the difference by seeing Radar details,

you see during 90's no countryis supplying plane to Pak, so pak don't have any option but to invest in making plane even it s inferior, it has no choice.

you heard the phrase" Beggers are not choosers" like when Pak don;t have any option to get plane it has to invest in making the plane. not matter what outcome of it.

would you be having the link for the grifo website.:coffee

 

[SU 30MKI]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

France, China and the UK where sure ready to provide planes to pakistan during the 90s but pakistan decided to turn them down. (so your wrong there mate).
Instead they went on to build the JF-17. so don't go saying things that u don't even know about matey.
secondly i will not comment on JF-17 Vs Bison as sri has said that there is too little info for comparison.

CHINA : During 90"s which Plane dose China has to give to Pak ? a varient of MIG 21 Only , that is the plane they can make at that time, and u already have the varient of MIG 21 don't you everything else with China is antique? SO which plane did China offer to Pak during 90's ? In fact Both China and Pak don;t have relations with West and Russina , so they don't have any choice other then to build own plane.


UK: American Sanctions, any plane made by UK use american Technology , so it can't suppy , More over, What ever US do , UK follows , if US sanctions Pak so dose UK also during 90's. . Which Plane dose UK offer ?

France: Sure Pak Airfore are stupid enoughf that they reject the offer of Mirage 2000 and leave the Pak Airfore with only handfull of morden plane. France never offered Mirage planes to Pak at that time also becasue of US sanctions.


please , get your facts clear.....:coffee

 

[P.A.F]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Su-30MKI, i don't want ot get into a deep discussion over this. i have got my facts right mate. u need to get you facts right.

UK offered PAF Tornadoes in 1997-9.
China where willing to provide us with any plane in its arsenal. they are not antiques. F-7's, J-8's, JH-7's, Q-5's, etc...
And US was in no position to stop France from selling us any arms at that time which is why france made multiple offer to Pakistan.

No further discussion on this please as this is the JF-17 thread ONLY.

 

[SU 30MKI]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

No you are wrong. Blind man cant tell any thing unless he is a good listner but that will also make your point "point less"

Grifo will be only fitted on early versions of JF-17. We excepted because we are getting ToT fot it from Italians. Advance versions will not be fitted with Grifo.

Early versions would be more of trainers.

All the specifications you read on the net are basic FC-1 (chinese version) design not JF-17s (Pak version), once PAC starts production it will put western avionics & weapon system along with it.

if you read correctly, chinese version will use differnt radar system and PAK with selected Grifo.

you mean to say PAF waisted its money for the radar system which it is not going to use it?

and its only for training, sounds like pretty rich country which can waist resources like this.

OR other thing is that , no other country ready to sell advance radar to PAK.

Well you want to say that china will allow pak to replace their parts from westrean, then the cost of plane will increase. Acc to your calulation , in order to have cost 10-15 million / peace, FC-1 has to br produce in 3oo in numbers, if it produce less theb 300 i.e 150 only for PAF then cost of plane rise up. This is the only reason China decided to buy 150 planes to keep the plane cost under control.

if you remove everything from plane then cost of plane ill shoot up like nothing and china will not like it , if it suffer economically.

 

[webmaster]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

LAST WARNING:

STAY ON THE DAMN TOPIC! As I said, if you don't understand what that means, I can have someone write it up in Hindi/Urdu so you may understand and go by the rules!

 

[Oqaab]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

if you read correctly, chinese version will use differnt radar system and PAK with selected Grifo.

you mean to say PAF waisted its money for the radar system which it is not going to use it?

and its only for training, sounds like pretty rich country which can waist resources like this.

OR other thing is that , no other country ready to sell advance radar to PAK.

Lol .... Dont U know Grifo S-7 is an Italian Radar. Get some knowledge before replying.

And yes, the Chinese option was the last in case nobody sells us radar. But Grifo was chosen over RC-400.

Grifo radar is no waste of money. It will be installed in initial batches and till then we will get something better to replace it.

FYI. China is going for 200 FC-1s.

 

[SABRE]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

if you read correctly, chinese version will use differnt radar system and PAK with selected Grifo.

you mean to say PAF waisted its money for the radar system which it is not going to use it?

and its only for training, sounds like pretty rich country which can waist resources like this.

Waisted money...lols...we are getting the Transfer ot technology. It would be equiped on export version Pakistan would produce. Italy has allowed its export via Pakistan on JF-17 (offcourse with conditions).

Pakistan is more into Swedish & French Radars.

OR other thing is that , no other country ready to sell advance radar to PAK.

France was willing but their conditions were harsh. We dint ask any one else untill Italy. Italian Defence Minister agreed to talk look into it when Pakistan Defence Ministry asked him. He was here to celebrate 50yrs since K2 was first conquered by two Italians. At the end of the year Italians agree.

Well you want to say that china will allow pak to replace their parts from westrean, then the cost of plane will increase. Acc to your calulation , in order to have cost 10-15 million / peace, FC-1 has to br produce in 3oo in numbers, if it produce less theb 300 i.e 150 only for PAF then cost of plane rise up. This is the only reason China decided to buy 150 planes to keep the plane cost under control.

I wanted to call u some thing but lets not get into fight. There are two version of FC-1. 1st FC-1 it self which is Chinese Version, 2- JF-17 which is Pakistani version...the JF-17 will also be the export version but it would be different from that of PAF. It doesnt matter what unit cost stands for PAF, it will upgrade its ACs with western Avionics while export version will remain in basic configuration decided by Pakistan & China.

So the unit price of Export version doesnt increase. Export version has nothign to so with PAF & PLAAF configurations.

Yes China will allow but they actualy have no authority on Pakistani half. We also modify Chinese A-5 & F-7 with western avionics (mostly from France) & they never said any thing.

if you remove everything from plane then cost of plane ill shoot up like nothing and china will not like it , if it suffer economically.

I told u all ready. We paid for 50% of the project so China doesnt have authority over our 50%, we can do what ever we like with our JF-17 (not for export version/block). The export version will not be striped from Chinese avionics & specifications (unless buyer wants to upgrade it like PAF, but they require authorization from Pak & China), hence neither China nor Pak suffer economicaly.

Major Points you never got :

1. PAF will modify JF-17 according to its requirement not Chinas (with Western avonics like we have done with F-7 & A-5)

2. PAF JF-17s are different from Export versions planned by Pak & China. Export versions are inferior to Chinese configuration of its own FC-1 & PAF's configuration of its JF-17. PAF JF-17 probably will also carry MICA BVRAAMs along with SD-10 BVRAAMs. Export versions wont have MICA.

3. We have the tech transfer of Grifo with export authority (to Italian conditions). We get money of it & Italians get money aswell. Advance PAF JF-17 will use different radar with multi targeting systems. Last time I checked we were in discussions with Sweden & France.

You realy dont know any thing about the project do you? The whole purpose of Export version was to replace F-7s, A-5s, F-5s, F-4s, MiG-21s & other inferior ACs. The purpose of PLAAF FC-1 & PAF JF-17 is to have some thing superior than F-16 Block 15,32,40 & some versions of MiG-29.

But even the export versions are being offered at such configuration that many countries have already show interest.

1. Egypt
2. Bangladesh
3. Burma
4. Nigeria
5. Zimbabwe

These are the countries which already have announced their interest.

While KSA, UAE (even though its dsnt have requirement), Libya, Syria, Yemen & some other ME countries are looking into it. Some good marketing is being done by Pak & China in ME region & also in East Asian countries.

Seeing the export demand I dont think either China or Pak will suffer economicaly. Its the best thing after K-8 exports.

 

[kashifshahzad]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

While KSA, UAE (even though its dsnt have requirement), Libya, Syria, Yemen & some other ME countries are looking into it. Some good marketing is being done by Pak & China in ME region & also in East Asian countries.

Ahmed all things are ok but can you tell me whether all these countries are going to agree on inferior version as compared to the verions of the PAF and PLAAF.And also can you tell me that which are these east asian countries which would be willing to buy JF-17's

Seeing the export demand I dont think either China or Pak will suffer economicaly. Its the best thing after K-8 exports.

Commin to the K-8 issue how do you see the ToT of K-8 to Egypt from China dont you think the export of these trainers would have benifited us more.

 

[SABRE]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Ahmed all things are ok but can you tell me whether all these countries are going to agree on inferior version as compared to the verions of the PAF and PLAAF.

The export versions are inferior to FC-1 & JF-17 PLAAF & PAF will produce for them selves. Offcourse China & Pak will make superior versions for them selves, every owner country does that. US wont sell you F-16s superior to theirs now will they. But inetrested countries will be allowed to upgrade their JF-17 with western or other avionics, if allowed by Pak & Chinese jointly. Most will offcourse be allowed to do so, we do want exports dont we.

And also can you tell me that which are these east asian countries which would be willing to buy JF-17's

I named one, Burma. There are lot of East Asian countries China is spreading its arms arround. Wait a while, you'll come to know of it.

Commin to the K-8 issue how do you see the ToT of K-8 to Egypt from China dont you think the export of these trainers would have benifited us more.

The transfer has some limitations. Egypt can not sell K-8 to any country & per K-8 produced will earn CAC money as well some money to PAC. Besides with ToT Egypt will become member of Chinese Military Allies. China wants it enfluence in far west of ME & Egypt is the door to it.

Egypt uses US ACs but they US has refused to sell them any thing equal or superior to Israel. They have 200 F-16s & non of them is BVR. It is because of this Egypt is moving to China specialy since China has developed SD-10 BVRAAM. This is why Egypt is also interested in JF-17 & may be even replace its old F-16 fleet with J-10.

So the transfer of technology is a bait from China to Egypt. Its Good for China & whats good for China ends up being good for Pakistan.

 

[kashifshahzad]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

The transfer has some limitations. Egypt can not sell K-8 to any country & per K-8 produced will earn CAC money as well some money to PAC. Besides with ToT Egypt will become member of Chinese Military Allies. China wants it enfluence in far west of ME & Egypt is the door to it.

Egypt uses US ACs but they US has refused to sell them any thing equal or superior to Israel. They have 200 F-16s & non of them is BVR. It is because of this Egypt is moving to China specialy since China has developed SD-10 BVRAAM. This is why Egypt is also interested in JF-17 & may be even replace its old F-16 fleet with J-10.

So the transfer of technology is a bait from China to Egypt. Its Good for China & whats good for China ends up being good for Pakistan.

Surely Egypt is in a great trouble after the denyl of BVRAAM.ToT with limitations is ok (if both are PAK and China are getting benifit from it then its great thing ).I want to know whether Egypt is only making allience with China i havent heard any news from the Pak govt that Egypt is signing this agreement or that .....

 

[hovercraft]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

why not pakistan is trying to make radar for JF-17, even india is working to make radar for lca and also engine too.

 

[kashifshahzad]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

why not pakistan is trying to make radar for JF-17, even india is working to make radar for lca and also engine too.

Pakistan is making radar under license from Italy its name is S-7 Griffo i think i have named the radar correctly
FC-1 will be fitted with Italian Grifo S-7 fire-control radar. The Grifo S-7 radar system is specially designed for the FC-1 it has 25 working modes and a non-break-down time of 200 hours. Grifo S-7 radar system is capable of look-down, shoot-down, as well as for ground strike abilities. Pakistani sources also suggest that Pakistan is mostly looking into western avionics to further improve FC-1's capabilities. In addition to that it includes new digital dual fly-by-wire (FBW) system and a true Beyond Visual Range (BVR) attack capability.

FC-1 include a 25° field of view HUD, two multi-functional displays and INS/GPS (Global Positioning System).