JF-17 Thunder / FC-1 / Super-7 Discussions

[gf0012-aust]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

DATA linking with what?

If it's a standoff weapon (SOW), then the aircraft needs to be able to manage the weapon through it's fire control system.

That will mean either GPS or satellite control, or it means that the aircraft and the weapon are exchanging and updating info on it's little journey down below.

It all depends on the guidance system on the weapon.

 

[umair]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

adSh, no need to apologise at all.

GF i sincerly apologize to you for makeing you read all this but i am sure the H-4 is Air to ground there were some Idiotic News media that were associating this missile with BVR AtoA it was mainly the hyped up Pakistani media that thought that the missile was infact what paksitan was trying to procure they read the words BVR and assumed it was Air to Air infact they(Development team) clearly said it was a step towards it. if pakistan has manged to produce a missile like H-4 with darter basic designs the ramjet should be incorporable with the SD-10 missiles that the Chinese were trying to build but they were slow at it and were not getting very far the main reason why i think pakistan has worked so hard on BVR is becasue no one wan't to sell those missiles to Pakistan unless pakistan would purchase Modern AC with them!!. well the Skanks thought enough is enough!! i have heard paksitan has mainly designed the guidance system of the SD-10.


Now could you explain me what you were trying to tell me about the AGM i still don't get it. is it the type of missile that destroys its slef only on contact!!!

There must be two weapons systems with the same designator. The comments I quoted were Pakistani Defence Force sources and Janes. There must be an H-4 freefall weapon as well. (read the text, it clearly states "bomb". It cannot be a glide bomb unless it has data linking between the bomb and the platform. I don't recall seeing IRST on the JF-17, although it's been a while since I actually saw any recent photos. A glide bomb would make sense as its a cheap stand off weapon - but as in my prev post, and as in yr news article - it shows two different types of H-4. A BVRAAM and a bomb.

Also, the Darter cannot be converted into a ramjet - it's a knock off of a sidewinder and is a thruster, solid fuel propellant only.

As for the AGM, most AGM's are designed to detonate on contact. There are others though which are proximity triggered, barometric triggered etc.. but in the main, they are triggered to either go off on contact, or go off milliseconds after contact (assuming that they are penetrators)

Ok! Gary I agree with u as far as the ramjet thing for the Darter is concerned.The infrared Darters(A&U) can't be equipped with ramjets.The R-Darter(V-4 which some people over here confuse with the H-4) maybe another story.And once again to clarify any confusions,H-2=glide bomb,H-4=rocket powered TLAM derivative.An analogy can be drawn with the GBU-15 glide bomb and it's derivative AGM-130(?) missile used by the USAF on it's F-15E strike eagles.The H-2 and H-4 are both inertially guided at the start of their flight in conjunction with GPS.The terminal guidance is command through datalink using an IIR T.V seekerhead.Accuracy will depend therefore on the skill of the pilot or WSO guiding the bomb/missile in it's terminal phase.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Ok! Gary I agree with u as far as the ramjet thing for the Darter is concerned.The infrared Darters(A&U) can't be equipped with ramjets.The R-Darter(V-4 which some people over here confuse with the H-4) maybe another story.And once again to clarify any confusions,H-2=glide bomb,H-4=rocket powered TLAM derivative.An analogy can be drawn with the GBU-15 glide bomb and it's derivative AGM-130(?) missile used by the USAF on it's F-15E strike eagles.The H-2 and H-4 are both inertially guided at the start of their flight in conjunction with GPS.The terminal guidance is command through datalink using an IIR T.V seekerhead.Accuracy will depend therefore on the skill of the pilot or WSO guiding the bomb/missile in it's terminal phase.

What confused me was the naming designators for the H4. Unlike NATO you don't prefix weapons systems by their type or role, so it made it awkward to try and establish their function. Esp when the tags were confused.

I got the logic right in the end though.

 

[tahir_kheshgi]

adsh, its no point talking about shaheen 2 or ghauri.. that is a different matter! NO ONE can stop them sort of missiles! ... well mainly because it will b goin to the space first and then when it comes down it will b at a velocity of around 20 mach! (twice the speed of the columbia shuttle when it came crashing down to earth) no defence system can stop that!! thats the difference between pak and ind missile tech! But thats a completely diff subject.. we are getting off track here!

H-4 i thought was BVRAAM as well, but it turned out to be an a2g missile. well gf, my only source for the accuracy claim is my PAF test pilot cousin. i know its not convincing enough, as for what u know, i could be lieing. But i guess you would just have to take my word for it! he is on mirages at the moment, and H-4 was fired from a mirage. so i think he knows what he is on about! he has done about 40 odd hours of flying as yet... so he is a legitimate source!
i think adsh is right, it is the SD-10 which is the bvraam for the jf-17, whereas the H4 is the A2g stand off missile!

 

[mysterious]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Excuse me? Going to space and coming back down? Can anyone please tell me why this person is distorting theories and information about certain things over here? :help

 

[adsH]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Excuse me? Going to space and coming back down? Can anyone please tell me why this person is distorting theories and information about certain things over here? :help

Ok Tahir the Ballistic missile is the same thing like a Cruise missile except it has multiple stage rocket separation and the onboard computer is alot more cleverer ie the AI is brilliant the targeting system can be GPS based(ie very accurate) i am not sure at all. and NO the Ghauri or shaheenXX does snot go into space and then come back down that would mean the missile would have to be alot more shielded ever seen a spcae rocket like Rusian space rocket soyes(i think) it is a completly different built!! and that russian rocket is not even designed for reentry!! look at columbia !! its designed for reentry and that fact that is it a reentry vehicle means it need alot of protection and solid protection. shaheen 2 is a basic ballistic missile with 2 stage sepration and solid fuel, it has a high Mach speed with a high terminal stage velocity ie i would say after second seperation. but the mach spead WIll not and i mean WIll not have exceeded mach 3.5. the AI system and guidance system on this 350 million dollar balistic missiles would be the very best, it should be,!!! for that resale price per-unit (i think )

the reason why nothing can stop this God for saken deliverer of dooms day is becasue it has a very fast spead of aproach while normal sams aren't fast enough in terms of there top spead and acceleration given the fact that they would have to be fired after the Ballistic would be airborn and around mach 3+ thats where hypersonic missile come in!! thats what NASA just tested!! it has reached i believe mach 5 or 6 i think i think thats the future of american anti balistic system !! if these Hypersonic Ramjet enhaced rocket could accelerate to top speeds like that they could possibly beat any incoming missiles!!! But this new toy!! is far from any bodies reach except the US and its closely guarded friend!!!

 

[gf0012-aust]

adsh, its no point talking about shaheen 2 or ghauri.. that is a different matter! NO ONE can stop them sort of missiles! ... well mainly because it will b goin to the space first and then when it comes down it will b at a velocity of around 20 mach! (twice the speed of the columbia shuttle when it came crashing down to earth) no defence system can stop that!! thats the difference between pak and ind missile tech! But thats a completely diff subject.. we are getting off track here!

H-4 i thought was BVRAAM as well, but it turned out to be an a2g missile. well gf, my only source for the accuracy claim is my PAF test pilot cousin. i know its not convincing enough, as for what u know, i could be lieing. But i guess you would just have to take my word for it! he is on mirages at the moment, and H-4 was fired from a mirage. so i think he knows what he is on about! he has done about 40 odd hours of flying as yet... so he is a legitimate source!
i think adsh is right, it is the SD-10 which is the bvraam for the jf-17, whereas the H4 is the A2g stand off missile!

It helps when you post information to get at least part of it right. Otherwise we end up having technical discussions which could have been resolved far earlier. There is still a substantial amount of info in your post which is questionable. I'm not saying that you or your cousin are lying - what I'm suggesting that something has been lost in translation.

As for intercepting ballistic missiles, there is embryonic technology which indicates that it can be achieved - why do you think that Russia and the USA are having disagreements about pre nuke treaties?

You need to be a little careful presenting things as rumour or potential fact when there are flaws in your base presentation. Again, I’m not saying that you stuffed up, but the initial info is kind of flawed.

I can go through and show why some of the things you have initially presented as coming from your cousin are wrong - but perhaps you need to get some clarity on what he has said first. Your prev posts about the H4 being an air to air and then an air to ground missile when in actual fact it is a glide bomb is a good example of what happens when info is presented incorrectly.

A glide bomb with a range of 120km is still something to be questioned. If anyone can provide a photo or some dimensions it will easier to lay this to rest. 120km range would require a substantial modification to the basic ordinance.

There are still more questions than answers here.

 

[P.A.F]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

is this about nuclear weapons or the JF-17 :?

 

[webmaster]

Thank you paf for pointing that out.

 

[tahir_kheshgi]

well when i say space i dont exactly mean that it goes pass the OZone layer hehehe But it definately goes up a lot more than others so when it comes down it comes down vertically down rather than diagnonally, making it very hard to stop!
yea adsh, thats what i mean that the speed when approaching is really high for any defence system to stop
my point was initially that PAK wont use H-4 on JF-17s to deliver Nukes. whats Shaheens and Ghauris are there for?
hey adsh i know about the new experiments the USA is doing but i doubt they would b able to stop such a fast approaching missile.. thats next to impossible!

Sorry Admin.. i know we are well off track

hey GF i dont think its a glide bomb.. hehehe i think the reporter didnt know the abc of military weapons. thats why he wrote something very silly like that.
bro if you have something which might change my view, then go ahead please do... no harm in that, i think thats why these sort of Defence discussions Forums are made to make us talk and exchange views. But the way i see it mate, a test pilot would know a lot more than some1 in FAS or Janes! especially when we talk about H-4 as it was the Mirages which this missles was tested on... and them mirages used were used from Karachi Masroor Base, where my cousin is currently based! Knowing all the above FACTS... i think i'll rather beleive my cousin mate...
good day

 

[gf0012-aust]

well when i say space i dont exactly mean that it goes pass the OZone layer hehehe But it definately goes up a lot more than others so when it comes down it comes down vertically down rather than diagnonally, making it very hard to stop!
yea adsh, thats what i mean that the speed when approaching is really high for any defence system to stop
my point was initially that PAK wont use H-4 on JF-17s to deliver Nukes. whats Shaheens and Ghauris are there for?
hey adsh i know about the new experiments the USA is doing but i doubt they would b able to stop such a fast approaching missile.. thats next to impossible!

Sorry Admin.. i know we are well off track

hey GF i dont think its a glide bomb.. hehehe i think the reporter didnt know the abc of military weapons. thats why he wrote something very silly like that.
bro if you have something which might change my view, then go ahead please do... no harm in that, i think thats why these sort of Defence discussions Forums are made to make us talk and exchange views. But the way i see it mate, a test pilot would know a lot more than some1 in FAS or Janes! especially when we talk about H-4 as it was the Mirages which this missles was tested on... and them mirages used were used from Karachi Masroor Base, where my cousin is currently based! Knowing all the above FACTS... i think i'll rather beleive my cousin mate...
good day

before we continue on, lets get some clarity here - tell me exactly what your cousin said the H4 is being used for. is it a pgm or free fall or agm or BVRAAM? so far we have covered all of them and yet it's impossible for a weap to be all 4 modes. The Pakistani Defence bulletins show it as a glide bomb - if it's not, then someone better tell them. Is it a darter clone or a bomb? If it's a darter clone then it cannot be an agm or pgm.


this thread has become confused so I want to make sure everything is clear

 

[adsH]

well when i say space i dont exactly mean that it goes pass the OZone layer hehehe But it definately goes up a lot more than others so when it comes down it comes down vertically down rather than diagnonally, making it very hard to stop!
yea adsh, thats what i mean that the speed when approaching is really high for any defence system to stop
my point was initially that PAK wont use H-4 on JF-17s to deliver Nukes. whats Shaheens and Ghauris are there for?
hey adsh i know about the new experiments the USA is doing but i doubt they would b able to stop such a fast approaching missile.. thats next to impossible!

Sorry Admin.. i know we are well off track

hey GF i dont think its a glide bomb.. hehehe i think the reporter didnt know the abc of military weapons. thats why he wrote something very silly like that.
bro if you have something which might change my view, then go ahead please do... no harm in that, i think thats why these sort of Defence discussions Forums are made to make us talk and exchange views. But the way i see it mate, a test pilot would know a lot more than some1 in FAS or Janes! especially when we talk about H-4 as it was the Mirages which this missles was tested on... and them mirages used were used from Karachi Masroor Base, where my cousin is currently based! Knowing all the above FACTS... i think i'll rather beleive my cousin mate...
good day

before we continue on, lets get some clarity here - tell me exactly what your cousin said the H4 is being used for. is it a pgm or free fall or agm or BVRAAM? so far we have covered all of them and yet it's impossible for a weap to be all 4 modes. The Pakistani Defence bulletins show it as a glide bomb - if it's not, then someone better tell them. Is it a darter clone or a bomb? If it's a darter clone then it cannot be an agm or pgm.


this thread has become confused so I want to make sure everything is clear

GF i have a simple solution Just ask Tahir to ask his Cuz (PAF test Pilot) a question that you could ask to clerify what tHe damm missile actually is or else the topic will remain a source of headache!!

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

good idea..., tahir_kheshgi, ask your cousin the following:

what designator is it?
what is it's primary role? ie is it a pgm, agm, BVRAAM,
is it railed only for the mirage?

as I said before, it cannot be an BVRAAM and a bomb, if it's a bomb, then it can't be related to the Darter etc...

what you're saying is different from Pakistani Defence releases both to the public and to military journals. I have the H4 listed as an AAM/ALI from various sources.

 

[SABRE]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Wow!!! I just come back after a long time just to c no one talking about JF-17.....Come om people creat a new link 4 ur Missile discussions..keep it clean here bring in JF-17. Stick 2 da Topic plz..

Any new news fellas

 

[mysterious]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

I'm pretty sure that the H-4 (in discussion right now) was primarily taken up for use on the JF-17 aircraft and everything related to that aircraft gets discussed here and not just its hollow body. :smokingc:

 

[adsH]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

I'm pretty sure that the H-4 (in discussion right now) was primarily taken up for use on the JF-17 aircraft and everything related to that aircraft gets discussed here and not just its hollow body. :smokingc:

i think All PAF should do is work on Avionics and radars and engines just like the israelis they should use there status as MNNA to acquire new research tech which should be easy given the fact pakistan is always spending money on Military R&D and feeding some unprioritized Chinese R&D. Look at the UK our tornados were late to start with but when they came inn all we kept doing was update the Avionics to make the Teeth of the AC more Sharp. i think thats what should be done in At PAC for JF-17



Some one tell me If there is work going onn to start an Avionic research center in Pak.

 

[mysterious]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

adsh, MNNA status has yet to be 'officially' granted to Pakistan and the other thing is that Pakistan now really doesn't care what status the US grants it 'cuz Pakistan has learnt not to trust the US from CEATO and SENTO (as well as the Baghdad Pact). According to one of these pacts (it slipped my mind which one was it), the US was suppose to take Pakistan's side and help it in the 1965 war but it completely ignored the guidelines of the treaties and remained neutral (to a very good extent) thus making Pakistan think twice from then onwards (I believe). :smokingc:

 

[adsH]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Ok first of all the status has been granted and Pakistan is a Major Non-NatoAlly the Initial 30 day post notification period in which this Notification can be nullified by the President is on a count down from the 30th last month and any attempts trying to stop this notification for takeing effect ie Pro Indian lobiest, "would be neutralized" (said by one of the depart of defence spokesmen). US has more to gain in terms of commitment than pakistan, pak wil remain in check and would slowly become more dependent on them. wellJust read the news and i think he has informed the senate about his decision and i don't think any thing on earth can change the presidents mind in one month!!!

i think Pak might be able to procure some sort of Avionic help now and Radars for the JF-17!! But we'll just have to wait and see!!

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////NEW related to Procurement/////////////////
News article Dawn Dated 2004 / 04 / 01

US Congress notified about MNNA status for Pakistan
By Qudssia Akhlaque


ISLAMABAD, April 30: The US Congress has been formally informed about President George W. Bush's decision to grant Pakistan the Major Non-Nato Ally (MNNA) status, diplomatic sources told Dawn on Friday.

"After completion of the inter-departmental consultations, the US State Department formally conveyed the presidential decision to the Congress last week," an informed source confirmed. With formal communication to the Congress last week the countdown for the expiry of the 30-day mandatory waiting period has begun.

Under the US law the MNNA status becomes automatically effective 30 days after the Congress is informed. Sources said a formal announcement of the presidential notification was expected by the end of May.

It is learnt Islamabad has assurance from Washington that attempts by the anti-Pakistan lobbies to prevent designation of this status to Pakistan will be aborted. Diplomatic observers say there is no precedent of such a decision ever being challenged. The current US law gives the president the authority to confer the MNNA status on any country by simply notifying the Congress.

US Secretary of State Colin Powell made the announcement about Bush administration's decision to designate Pakistan as the MNNA during his visit to Islamabad on March 18.

The MNNA status increases military-to-military cooperation and eases access to military armaments and defence articles. Also, it speeds up the procurement process. While President Bush has pledged to address Pakistan's "legitimate defence needs" it is not clear yet how far the US government would be willing to go after formally designating Pakistan as a MNNA.

Pakistan, however, has decided to test the limits once it formally assumes the exclusive MNNA status. According to informed sources the Pakistani military establishment is currently updating its shopping list for the US government.

Major non-NATO allies are eligible for: priority delivery of excess defence articles (EDA); stockpiling of US defence articles; purchase of depleted uranium anti-tank rounds; participation in cooperative research and development programmes; and participation in the Defence Export Loan Guarantee (DELG) programme, which backs up private loans for commercial defence exports.

 

[mysterious]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

adsh, I'm a Pakistani (I think you got the wrong signal)!! The problem was that I 'somehow' missed this news that the US congress had been informed formally. Now, Pakistan just has to wait till May 30th to present the US its long-awaited and long-needed shopping list!! I want to see some shiny F-16s coming our way!!!!! :smokingc:

 

[webmaster]

This is JF-17/FC1 one thread... post relevent articles and posts ONLY!

This isn't about non-nato ally status or pak military's shopping list. Mods nor I like to baby sit each and every reply that is posted here... show some responsibility and awareness of the topics please!!!