Indonesian Aero News

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Just add what @tonnyc stated, from Soeharto era most of Squadron size is either 12 or 16. However Hawk 63 at their hight comprised to 20 aircraft, while Hawk 200 being originally acquired 32 and Hawk 100 of 8 (total 40) are lump into 2 sq.

The AF in media just like tonnyc state are shown preference of 16 as Full Sq, eventough current 2 sq of F-16 consist of 34 (now 33 as one loss due to accident) of 18 and 16.
During Soekarno era, the number of aircraft of each sq was bigger from 20 to 30. Thus seems how many of aircraft being put in a sq depends on how TNI-AU get on procurement pie and how they consolidate the assets on resources management base.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Yes, Eurofighters is not one of the type that TNI-AU put. This's seems some chances that MinDef see. I suspect Airbus also doing some high level lobby on this.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Yes, Eurofighters is not one of the type that TNI-AU put. This's seems some chances that MinDef see. I suspect Airbus also doing some high level lobby on this.
Yeah if it were contemplated in addition to some RAF Tranche 1’s or something to build a robust, supportable squadron (ie: 18+ airframes) and support a domestic industry upgrade program, with ToT and all the rest, that might be a different story, but I don’t think that is being seriously proposed, yet?

In addition it still adds an expensive to buy and support ‘orphan’ aircraft into the Orbat that offers less capability overall than a straightforward F-16V purchase / upgrade and while the ‘different supplier’ aspect might be attractive, does anyone see the Typhoon’s European partner nations agreeing to support TNI-AU Typhoons, if the US were to decide to stop supporting US platforms in Indonesian service?

I think that unlikely - ask the Pakistanis, how that European support is working out for them at present...
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
but I don’t think that is being seriously proposed, yet?
Airbus already put serious proposal for upgrading and assembly Eurofighters in DI facility. Also proposal for DI further inclusion within Airbus Military product chain. However that proposal before lost out to Rosoboron offer on Su-35.


As I've put and other Indonesian members put, TNI-AU wants F-16V. This's the type that AF brass consistently put as their preference.
TNI-AU knows well that their infrastructure and training already gear up to F-16. Eurofighters or Rafale is coming to option as part of Su-35 alternative. Seems US being rumoured to offer FA-18 E/F as Su-35 alternative.
This as F-16 (either F-16V or Refurbished ones) shown indication as going to be insisted by TNI-AU.

With MinDef politics consideration as this administration shown, this will be back to lobby that's been going on. The sign shown with several high level talks with US, US seems going to have leads on TNI-AU program.


However as I've told many times in this forum, never underestimate Airbus lobby on Indonesian aircraft procurement program.
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
What is the important of this test flight ? Can you explain what DSKU is ?

They also said about DGCA without explaining what it means

DSKU (new name DKPPU) is a part of the national aviation authority of Indonesia, Direktorat Jenderal Perhubungan Udara (DGCA).




It carries out certification, regulation and standardisation and also performs investigation and monitoring. It collects and analyses safety data, drafts and advises on safety legislation and co-ordinates with similar organisations in other parts of the world.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group

Somehow since I've open his Twitter few times, Google algorithm keep pushing his Twitter to my attention. I put his Twitter as example seems he's part of people in domestic Defense circle that now conducting 'subtle' campaign against US made Fighters. Looking at his Twitter like above, he's indicating procurement of US Fighters will need 'approval' from neighbors, or other Twitter that stating since US only offering single F-16V then MinDef will look to other twin engines offer from Euro suppliers. His tweet got many retweet from his followers that seems shown agreement that US will only offer 'second class' Defense equipment to Indonesia.

I just want to put here to remind Indonesian that read and follow this forum. TNI-AU has potential to go all French on the Fighters during Soeharto era, from Mirage IIIe if choose instead F5 E/F, Mirage 2000 if choose instead F-16, or Super Etandard if choose instead Hawk 200 (as A-4 replacement). The French even offered more advanced version from what Marine Nationale used with upgrade avionics that Segam will developed for Indonesia need, if IPTN agree in joint project with Dasault on manufacturing Super Etandard instead going with BAE for Hawk 200.

However Indonesia choose US and British fighters instead due to operating cost factors (eventough BAE also used bit shady deal by using Soeharto Children company as agent for Hawk). US give F-16 to Indonesia not because 'neighbors' approval (as his hinted), but more because Mirage 2000.

I remember in Indonesian Air Shown 1986 (looking at Alman profile he's still in elementary school or kindergarten, while I remember it more since already in High School), Soeharto climb to Mirage 2000 cockpit and gives thumbs up. Meanwhile the F-16 people watch it nervously (this according to media people that also watch them), on Soeharto's sign. The fact that F-16 and Mirage 2000 are the only fighters in display shown how tough those two compete for the deal. Thus US offer F-16 at that time was to countered Mirage 2000 offer, not due to some neighborhood lobby as his hinted.

Yes, there're talk circulate that Moerdani talk with the neighbors on Indonesian plan for modernisation of the Air Force. However it's not to get their approval, but more to give assurance that the modernisation will not aim for them. It's understandable as 20 years before, Indonesian Mig 21 and Tu-16 was being used to potentially aim at the neighbors.

There's also talk in online media (not from Him, but others that bit anti US Fighters), that the neighbors also make US only offering one sq of F-16 while give Singapore more. That's also misslead as US actually already agree to give at least 3 sq of F-16 to Indonesia. US already give permission for Indonesia to take all 28 F-16 that should go to Pakistan, however Indonesia that negotiate only taking 9 first. Until 1996 it's still in negotiations, however Asia Financial crisis, Soeharto downfall and Indonesian debacle on handling East Timor referendum (that being given by Habibie in the surprise of US and Australia), is the thing that stop it.

This thing of double engine vs single engine due to operational and range is also misslead in the case of F-16V. F-16V already capable of similar range of double engine competitors due to it's conformal tanks. Something that being omitted by those who represents double engine competitors, when taking on F-16 range.

Well that's my ranting, I only put this just to remind that US Fighters being choose over French fighters before due to operational costs, although US lobby is tip the scale.
LM also already talk in media before, that F-35 is not being offered to Indonesia due to Indonesia need to get improve the learning curve with more advance Gen 4 fighters before getting to Gen 5. However Indonesia after that will still be in the potential as F-35 users.

Some in Indonesian forums shown US shown double standard as offering F-35 to Switzerland which's neutral non NATO nation's, while Swiss also only operating similar Gen Fighters as Indonesia. Forgetting that Swiss F-18 continue being upgrade, and Indonesian F-16 only being upgrade now. Thinking that Swiss AF have similar stage of learning curve as TNI-AU is also highly misslead.

US continue offering F-16V perhaps also due one thing that many Indonesian Defense enthusiasts forgot. It's the type that TNI-AU continue put as their preference.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Such a silly series of posts by Alman Helvas. The Secretary of the Air Force, Barbara Barrett, was visiting their No. 1 customer, Singapore — she is likely to be discussing Singapore’s basing in Guam and the relocation of SG’s F-16s from Luke to another location (5 shortlisted) along with SG’s option for 8 more F-35Bs; which the Americans want to secure.

It makes sense for her to also visit Indonesia (as the leader of ASEAN) and for her to make efforts to expand this cooperation in the years ahead. To avoid unintentional offence, it makes sense for Barbara Barrett to visit Jakarta — by the time any thing is decided, it will be the Biden admin’s term.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
Seems Alman actually has interest representing US Fighters competition. He's continue downplaying US diplomatic effort or US offers. My guess is he's represents French interest, as he also subtely upgaming Euro offer but more hinting on French Products.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group

Indonesian Minister for research and technology, emphasis that development of N219 Light Transport Turboprop and Black Eagle MALE UAV still part of research Priority for period 2020-2024, or this administration second term.

He add beside those two, the priority will be related to development of Domestic COVID 19 vaccine and medication, Chemical Catalyst for Bio Fuel and development for integrated natural salt Production.

This's projects that will leverage government fund R&D project using combine effort of Universities, Government R&D Agency and local industry.
Related to this thread, shown more modest target to develop local aerospace industry.
 

Ahmad

Active Member
He said those 4 programs are super-priority programs. He doesnt say those are the only priority program in aerospace sector. And it is N 219 Amphibious program that he mentioned, not N 219 program that almost complete its certification.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
No he says that the priority program for Aerospace until 2024 is only that two. Amphibious N219 is just enlargement of existing N219 program.

He doesn't say there's other priorities Aerospace program until 2024 beside N219 and Black Hawk Make UAV. So please enlighten us on other priority program for Aerospace that already included in the agenda of Research and Tech Ministry up to 2024.

The agenda for priority program up to 2024 already circulate in media. So do please shown us if there's other aerospace program from that priority list, that can be say as priority as you have claim.
 

Ahmad

Active Member
LOL I dont want to debate about what you can grab when you read those comments written in Tempo, I still stick to my prior comment.

This is an online meeting just 2 months ago.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
So, what already put in media is the program that already committed nationaly. You are not the only one who knows there other program being 'discussed'. However those program are not being committed yet, thus can't be call as priority.

You are the one that saying there are other aerospace priorities program besides those two. So please shown the aerospace program that already committed as priority besides those two.

Seems you're accustomed to talk in other forum on satimg program that still not being committed yet, as already in priority. However don't say it as those program as already priority program in here.

The program that already in priority means those program already being set the budget to develop. The program that are not in priority list means, the budget has not been set and still under consideration.

The post talk the priority program, which means already set to develop and being allocated the budget. Not something in plan or consideration.
For me, I talk with some people that disbursing the budget. They're the ones that can confirm from hundreds of project being plan and come under consideration, which ones that going to be disburse and implement.
Basically from what I heard, only the ones that being set as priority, are the ones that going to be implemented.

You don't want debate, no problem it's your call. However if you put a claim in here saying there are other aerospace projects that already put as priority project. Please shown the official source to back it up.
You know the rules on this forum.
 

tonnyc

Well-Known Member
Let me point out that the Ministry of Defense and the Ministry of Research and Technology are two different ministries with their own programs and priorities. The MinDef also has their own research arm separate from the Research &Tech's arm.

When Ananda said that the minister for Research & Tech said they have those 4 priorities, he's correct. When Ahmad said those aren't the only priority program, he's also correct.
 

Ahmad

Active Member
I dont want to show the origin but it is online meeting with high level officials just 2 months ago. I dont want other nationality listen to explanation there he he
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
When Ananda said that the minister for Research & Tech said they have those 4 priorities, he's correct. When Ahmad said those
Well the post is about what ministry of research and tech project. Those are the project that going to be build within domestic Industry. MinDef aero project is not automatically related to Domestic aerospace industry development. It can, but not all.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
dont want to show the origin but it is online meeting with high level officials just 2 months ago.
Like I say, you're not the only one that knows about those program. However those program still under planning and consideration. Not yet already priority. It's simple, if it's already as priority, it will already get approval from Bapenas and Ministry of Finance. After that being approved by Cabinet. If not, there's still ministrial project, and not yet national priority project.

Any projects that seems already got approval from MinDef, will have to pass assessment from both Bapenas and Ministry of Finance. Especially it's large project that requires Foreign Credit line. Bapenas will asses the priority of the project, Ministry of Finance will asses foreign credit allocation against national foreign loan threshold in the budget. I already put this few times.

Thus I watch the program that already pass them and then Cabinet approval. This's due (especially in this administration) perhaps less than a third of ministrial submission for foreign credit financing that can pass both institution. This's before final cut in the cabinet.

So don't put whatever already reach high level discussion in MinDef as sure thing, and will be implemented.

On the what Minister of Research and Tech put as in the post, is already pass those hurdle. Thus you're talking apple and orange.
 
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