Indonesian Aero News

[Ananda]

From KDN (KoreaDefece.net): KDNÀÚÁÖ±¹¹æ³×Æ®¿öÅ© ±âȹ/ÇöÀå¼½¼Ç

In Short: CRDC (combined Research & Development Center), a Bureau build by ROK and Indonesian Government to supervise R&D program for KFX/IFX has come out with their latest design called KFX C-103.

It's a more conventional design compared to previous 102 design with canard, and no weapons bay (as why the called it Gen 4.5 design). However according to CRDC it's the design that the team in there more comfortable with, and more realistically achieved within the time frame originally set by both ROK and Indonesia (2020).

The design has 11 external hard points and it's design to be powered by twin engine of 18,000 pound thrust each (36,000 on total) which indicate to class of GE F414 or EJ200. It's aimed as competitors for F-16 Block 60, F-18 E/F Shornet, Rafale, and Typhoon but not F-35 in the market.

Thus the CRDC claim seems put an end to some claim of Korean and Indonesian Fan Boys that addamant KFX is a Gen 5 Fighter.

 

[DNAz]

From KDN (KoreaDefece.net):

In Short: CRDC (combined Research & Development Center), a Bureau build by ROK and Indonesian Government to supervise R&D program for KFX/IFX has come out with their latest design called KFX C-103.

It's a more conventional design compared to previous 102 design with canard, and no weapons bay (as why the called it Gen 4.5 design). However according to CRDC it's the design that the team in there more comfortable with, and more realistically achieved within the time frame originally set by both ROK and Indonesia (2020).

The design has 11 external hard points and it's design to be powered by twin engine of 18,000 pound thrust each (36,000 on total) which indicate to class of GE F414 or EJ200. It's aimed as competitors for F-16 Block 60, F-18 E/F Shornet, Rafale, and Typhoon but not F-35 in the market.

Thus the CRDC claim seems put an end to some claim of Korean and Indonesian Fan Boys that addamant KFX is a Gen 5 Fighter.

Can you even read the korean on that site?

 

[Ananda]

Can you even read the korean on that site?

With google translate even not 100% accurate, clearly CRDC hoping to put KFX with F16 Block 60, SHornet, and Typhoon (thus one can presume also Rafale). Thus clearly not in liege of F-35 which is the yard stick of what 5th gen fighter is.

 

[Alvin-Jr]

Multirole AEW for Indonesia?

Greetings,

something came up to my mind whether we need a multirole AEW. Our fighters have grown and the need to link them to the national air defence network is crucial. Our neighbors already have multirole AEW, with Thailand's SAAB 340 Erieye as the latest club member.

Problem is, we already have 4 MPAs which are 1 CN235-MPA and 3 B732 Surveiller. Let say that if we have to procure several AEW-only aircrafts that means we are having 3 different aircraft for 2 tasks. With Wedgetail or Erieye you can do MPA and AEW on the same aircraft.

I strongly think that we need Erieye. But why Erieye? Because of it dual capability as an AEW and MPA. What about Wedgetail? Well, I don't know the price but just looking at it's customers it must be a lot more expensive than Erieye. Unlike Wedgetail which platform is B737-700, Erieye can be installed on smaller props and jets. Saab 340 is one of the popular platform for Erieye, so it can definitely be installed on CN235.

If we switch to multirole AEW now, what would become of the existing 4 MPAs? But operating 3 different aircraft for surveillance sounds heavy on our wallet.

Also, some say that the multirole AEW can kill DI's CN235-MPA project. But DI has demonstrated that the CN235-MPA can also play a good role in ASW complete with armaments. I don't think Erieye supports ASW

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Greetings,

something came up to my mind whether we need a multirole AEW. Our fighters have grown and the need to link them to the national air defence network is crucial. Our neighbors already have multirole AEW, with Thailand's SAAB 340 Erieye as the latest club member.

Problem is, we already have 4 MPAs which are 1 CN235-MPA and 3 B732 Surveiller. Let say that if we have to procure several AEW-only aircrafts that means we are having 3 different aircraft for 2 tasks. With Wedgetail or Erieye you can do MPA and AEW on the same aircraft.

I strongly think that we need Erieye. But why Erieye? Because of it dual capability as an AEW and MPA. What about Wedgetail? Well, I don't know the price but just looking at it's customers it must be a lot more expensive than Erieye. Unlike Wedgetail which platform is B737-700, Erieye can be installed on smaller props and jets. Saab 340 is one of the popular platform for Erieye, so it can definitely be installed on CN235.

If we switch to multirole AEW now, what would become of the existing 4 MPAs? But operating 3 different aircraft for surveillance sounds heavy on our wallet.

Also, some say that the multirole AEW can kill DI's CN235-MPA project. But DI has demonstrated that the CN235-MPA can also play a good role in ASW complete with armaments. I don't think Erieye supports ASW

There were some plans for AEW CN235 and NC295, but these plans are very premature...

 

[ADMk2]

Simple. Add 4-5 C-295 airframes to the TNI-AU inventory and work with Airbus on the development of their new C-295 AESA.

You've got an in-service aircraft that is supportable and cost-effective to operate and maintain as well as the chance to co-develop a new generation AEW&C capability, delivering a huge capability boost for the TNI-AU and great technology-transfer benefits for Indonesia.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/paris-picture-aew-themed-c-295-makes-public-debut-358360/

 

[Ananda]

Simple. Add 4-5 C-295 airframes to the TNI-AU inventory and work with Airbus on the development of their new C-295 AESA.

You've got an in-service aircraft that is supportable and cost-effective to operate and maintain as well as the chance to co-develop a new generation AEW&C capability, delivering a huge capability boost for the TNI-AU and great technology-transfer benefits for Indonesia.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/paris-picture-aew-themed-c-295-makes-public-debut-358360/

In an interview couple months ago, The Minister of Defense told the media, that he believe C-295 platform is smaller that the platform needed for Indonesian AEW. It will depend on which lobby will win anyway. EADS now team-up with DI and got strong lobby it self within Indonesian administrations and parliament. So NC-295 AEW is strong possibility in my mind.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

In an interview couple months ago, The Minister of Defense told the media, that he believe C-295 platform is smaller that the platform needed for Indonesian AEW. It will depend on which lobby will win anyway. EADS now team-up with DI and got strong lobby it self within Indonesian administrations and parliament. So NC-295 AEW is strong possibility in my mind.

The 737 AEW&C is too expensive, the EMB-145 AEW&C/R-99A is maybe a good alternative, but still more expensive than the NC-295 with, for example, an Erieye.
But i think the NC295 with its range of 4,300 km / 2,300 nmi (with 4,550 kilograms payload) is good enough and the best solution for Indonesia.

"Customer interest could drive Airbus Military to consider further development activities, with the company saying a production system could provide an operational endurance of 7-8h."

Seven to eight hours is not bad......

 

[Alvin-Jr]

The 737 AEW&C is too expensive, the EMB-145 AEW&C/R-99A is maybe a good alternative, but still more expensive than the NC-295 with, for example, an Erieye.
But i think the NC295 with its range of 4,300 km / 2,300 nmi (with 4,550 kilograms payload) is good enough and the best solution for Indonesia.

"Customer interest could drive Airbus Military to consider further development activities, with the company saying a production system could provide an operational endurance of 7-8h."

Seven to eight hours is not bad......

The minister is right to say that NC295 is too small for AEW&C. Indonesia's airspace is very large and the B737 is the ideal aircraft with it's speed,and higher flying altitude compare to the turboprop ones. But then again, money....money....money... is not funny for small wallets.

I think NC295 is good enough for our air defense posture. Range and flight endurance is good. It's also much larger than EMB145 or SAAB 340. Flying 7 hours in a commercial A330 with Video-on-demand and lovely stewardesses can be boring enough, I can't imagine AEW&C operators work 7-8 hours in a small narrow tube like EMB145 or SAAB340. It must be awful.

Opting for NC295 can also make DI happy.

 

[Ananda]

8 Apache for Indonesia.

From Reuters: UPDATE 1-U.S. to sell Indonesia 8 Apache helicopters | Reuters

WASHINGTON, Sept 20 (Reuters) - The United States said on Thursday it will sell Indonesia eight AH-64/D Apache helicopters to strengthen security ties with the largest country in Southeast Asia and the world's most populous Muslim-majority nation.

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, speaking during a meeting with Indonesian Foreign Minister Marty Natalegawa in Washington, said Congress had been notified of the intent to sell the aircraft.

Well, it's seems official that US Administrations will process and proceed, the Indonesian request for 8 AH-64/D. The TNI has been considering Attack/Gun Ship anti armor Helicopter at the same time they're requesting MBT. The assessment (from local media/forum) by them on Mi-35, stated that Mi-35 (at least in TNI-AD inventory) will be more appropriate for COIN operation rather than Anti Armor/MBT operations.

Unconfirmed report suggest there are 3 candidates being evaluated: AH-64, Mi-28 and Eurocopter Tiger. Many in here believe initially that the other two will have more potential to procured due to increasingly closer arrangement between DI and Eurocopter, and due to better logistics considerations for Mi-28 since TNI-AD already quite familiar with Mi-17V and Mi-35.

Personally I'm more inclined for Mi-28 due to logistical considerations. However perhaps Boeing have some other offer in hand with DI on other project that can be a stronger considerations.

 

[ADMk2]

From Reuters: UPDATE 1-U.S. to sell Indonesia 8 Apache helicopters | Reuters



Well, it's seems official that US Administrations will process and proceed, the Indonesian request for 8 AH-64/D. The TNI has been considering Attack/Gun Ship anti armor Helicopter at the same time they're requesting MBT. The assessment (from local media/forum) by them on Mi-35, stated that Mi-35 (at least in TNI-AD inventory) will be more appropriate for COIN operation rather than Anti Armor/MBT operations.

Unconfirmed report suggest there are 3 candidates being evaluated: AH-64, Mi-28 and Eurocopter Tiger. Many in here believe initially that the other two will have more potential to procured due to increasingly closer arrangement between DI and Eurocopter, and due to better logistics considerations for Mi-28 since TNI-AD already quite familiar with Mi-17V and Mi-35.

Personally I'm more inclined for Mi-28 due to logistical considerations. However perhaps Boeing have some other offer in hand with DI on other project that can be a stronger considerations.

Although AH-64 was initially designed primarily for the anti-armour role, it is certainly far more capable in almost every role than any other armed helicopter in the world. It was recently selected by India ahead of the Mil-28 and Tiger

I wish Australia had chosen it, instead of the bloody $Tiger ARH...

Here's an idea of the Block III Apache capability, especially in relation to COIN operations...

Apache Longbow Block III - YouTube

 

[Feanor]

Unconfirmed report suggest there are 3 candidates being evaluated: AH-64, Mi-28 and Eurocopter Tiger. Many in here believe initially that the other two will have more potential to procured due to increasingly closer arrangement between DI and Eurocopter, and due to better logistics considerations for Mi-28 since TNI-AD already quite familiar with Mi-17V and Mi-35.

Personally I'm more inclined for Mi-28 due to logistical considerations. However perhaps Boeing have some other offer in hand with DI on other project that can be a stronger considerations.

I wonder why the Ka-52 isn't on the list. It's quite capable, in production, desperate for orders, and has a large production order from the VVS meaning the type will have a future.

 

[old faithful]

AD, think we got the tiger because its range other than any other factor.
Indonesia also needs long ranged choppers, not so sure the AH64 is the right chopper for Indo, they don't really face an amour threat, and if they did, cobras would handle any threat they face. Think Indonesia needs an armed rècon chopper, with long endurance and range, like a tiger.

 

[Ananda]

Indonesia also needs long ranged choppers, not so sure the AH64 is the right chopper for Indo, they don't really face an amour threat, and if they did, cobras would handle any threat they face. Think Indonesia needs an armed rècon chopper, with long endurance and range, like a tiger.

Well the Army got Mi-35 for that. From what I heard, the primary attack Helicopter for COIN operations still Mi-35, and for political reasons I do believe Indonesian Armed Force will try to minimize using Western made weapon if any COIN conflict arise. That's why the procurement of Mi-17V and Mi-35 still being pursue.

@Feanor, why not Ka-52 ? Well I believe because it's Ka and not Mi. Seems there's some factional competitions within Rosboronexport on that matter. Got some info, Roboron only offered Mi helicopters to Indonesia or Southeast Asia market. Don't know how sure it is though.

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7h0vkIuOzfg&feature=player_embedded"]Secretary Clinton and Indonesian Foreign Minister R.M. Marty Natalegawa Address Reporters - YouTube[/nomedia]

On that You Tube Video of US Secretary of State press conference with Indonesian Foreign Minister, Secretary Hilary clearly stated the offer is for 8 AH-64D Longbow Attack Helicopter (minutes 02:30+). From Mindef sources in here, seems indicated it's not a new build one, but a refurbished ex US Army stocks. At this time, it's still sketchy to be sure anyway.
The Indonesian Parliament already reacted that Chinnok is more appropriate to be procurred at this moment. So we'll have to see another drama evolved again

 

[ADMk2]

AD, think we got the tiger because its range other than any other factor.
Indonesia also needs long ranged choppers, not so sure the AH64 is the right chopper for Indo, they don't really face an amour threat, and if they did, cobras would handle any threat they face. Think Indonesia needs an armed rècon chopper, with long endurance and range, like a tiger.

Well the AH-64's range was good enough to meet our requirements as one of two shortlisted helos, but range wasn't the reason it wasn't chosen. Lies from Australian Aerospace and Thales about the Tiger's cost and maturity were and here we are 11 years after they were ordered and nearly 9 years after they were first delivered and they STILL haven't reached IOC (AFAIK) and co-incidentally haven proven no cheaper and no more capable, but infinitely harder to support than the Apache...

However, you need to compare apples and apples if you're going to discuss range issues. Range with what payload? The AH-64 routinely carries a huge payload compared to it's contemporaries AND it has a far larger array of sensors, including the high drag Longbow radar sensor, a capability that remains basically unique to the Apache among attack helicopters.

Chuck 16 Hellfires on a Tiger (if it could even carry them) or the Cobra as well as a large, heavy radar mast and let's see how the relative range compares...

 

[ADMk2]

Indonesia - AH-64D Block III Longbow Attack Helicopters.

DSCA request:

http://www.dsca.mil/pressreleases/36-b/2012/Indonesia_12-53.pdf

 

[Gadjah Mada]

@Feanor, why not Ka-52 ? Well I believe because it's Ka and not Mi. Seems there's some factional competitions within Rosboronexport on that matter. Got some info, Roboron only offered Mi helicopters to Indonesia or Southeast Asia market. Don't know how sure it is though.

I think the answer of why Mil and not Kamov is probably the same with why the Russian offered Mi-28 instead of Ka-50/52 to India which is Russian largest weaponry buyer. A competition where Apache eventually won and got ordered for 22 units.

 

[old faithful]

Well the AH-64's range was good enough to meet our requirements as one of two shortlisted helos, but range wasn't the reason it wasn't chosen. Lies from Australian Aerospace and Thales about the Tiger's cost and maturity were and here we are 11 years after they were ordered and nearly 9 years after they were first delivered and they STILL haven't reached IOC (AFAIK) and co-incidentally haven proven no cheaper and no more capable, but infinitely harder to support than the Apache...

However, you need to compare apples and apples if you're going to discuss range issues. Range with what payload? The AH-64 routinely carries a huge payload compared to it's contemporaries AND it has a far larger array of sensors, including the high drag Longbow radar sensor, a capability that remains basically unique to the Apache among attack helicopters.


Chuck 16 Hellfires on a Tiger (if it could even carry them) or the Cobra as well as a large, heavy radar mast and let's see how the relative range compares...

Well,when you put it like that.....

 

[macman]

Is this correct?

From Defence News:

the DSCA released U.S. congressional notifications on a possible FMS sale of eight AH-64D Apache Block III Longbow attack helicopters to Indonesia.

The estimated $1.42 billion deal, announced on Sept. 21, will include 19 T-700-GE-701D Engines (16 installed and 3 spares), 9 Modernized Target Acquisition and Designation Sight/Modernized Pilot Night Vision Sensors, 4 AN/APG-78 Fire Control Radars, 4 AN/APR-48A Radar Frequency Interferometers, 10 AAR-57(V) 3/5 Common Missile Warning Systems, 10 AN/AVR-2B Laser Detecting Sets, 10 AN/APR-39A(V)4 Radar Signal Detecting Sets, 24 Integrated Helmet and Display Sight Systems, 32 M299A1 Hellfire Missile Launchers, and 140 Hellfire AGM-114R3 Missiles.

Korea Decision on Attack Helicopters Nearing | Defense News | defensenews.com

This works out to $177 million per helicopter!
Even with spares & weapons loadout that seems to be a ridiculous price.

At a guess, you could get 4x Mi-28's with a decent weapons setup for the same price - might not have quite all the bells & whistles of the Apache, but will do the same job 98% of the time..

 

[the road runner]

This works out to $177 million per helicopter!
Even with spares & weapons loadout that seems to be a ridiculous price.

Well spares and weapons load out cost money,they just dont give it to you with a helicopter.Also training ,ground equipment ,base modernisation ect add to the price.

Its not just an simple formula of dividing $1.42 billion divided by 8.