Indonesia: 'green water navy'

[swerve]

I genuinely doubt any ship that the TNI-AL use will be equipped with US made major subsystems. The Navy has repeatedly stated on their intent to standardize MICA for AAW. Of course we have no concrete word on what MRAD/HIMAD systems that they use but with how strong MBDA's presence here is my guess goes to Aster.

Either way, correct me if I am wrong but in theory it wouldn't be that particularly difficult to re-equip the design to use solutions from Thales or Terma/Hensoldt wouldn't it?

The basic JMSDF version has SeaRAM, Mk 45 gun & fitted for but not with Mk 41 VLS. Just about all the other weapons & all the sensors seem to be Japanese. VL Mica NG could replace the SeaRAM & the predicted naval Chu-SAM, unless something longer range is desired - though the NG has a significantly longer range than the original VL Mica. It would need to be integrated with the Japanese radars, or a different radar fitted.

Japanese torpedoes, radars, sonars, anti-ship missiles, CMS, EW system. If replacing 'em by European systems is preferred (& certainly feasible: plenty of choice), & diesel is preferred to GT, it looks to me as if it changes from buying a ship to buying a hull. AFAIK MHI & Mitsui have never done anything similar. Their ships have all been delivered to the JMSDF's spec, without any equipment alternatives, let alone replacing almost everything.

I think an Iver Huitfeldt based ship would be a safer bet. Type 31, for example, should be easy to adapt. All diesel already. VL Mica NG could go where the Sea Ceptors are. Carry over as much as the Martadinata fit as wished (same CMS), with lots of space for extras, such as reinstating the Iver Huitfeldt's torpedoes. OMT and/or BMT would be happy to do it, & both have experience of designing ships to be built in other countries - successfully.

I'd like to see the Japanese break into the warship export market, but I'm a bit unsure whether this is the right opportunity. It's not just because I'm prejudiced in favour of OMT, though I am (some of my ancestors worked in the Odense shipyards, 200 years ago): I can't help wondering if they're prepared for the degree of change to the equipment Indonesia is likely to want.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

The basic JMSDF version has SeaRAM, Mk 45 gun & fitted for but not with Mk 41 VLS. Just about all the other weapons & all the sensors seem to be Japanese. VL Mica NG could replace the SeaRAM & the predicted naval Chu-SAM, unless something longer range is desired - though the NG has a significantly longer range than the original VL Mica. It would need to be integrated with the Japanese radars, or a different radar fitted.

Japanese torpedoes, radars, sonars, anti-ship missiles, CMS, EW system. If replacing 'em by European systems is preferred (& certainly feasible: plenty of choice), & diesel is preferred to GT, it looks to me as if it changes from buying a ship to buying a hull. AFAIK MHI & Mitsui have never done anything similar. Their ships have all been delivered to the JMSDF's spec, without any equipment alternatives, let alone replacing almost everything.

I think an Iver Huitfeldt based ship would be a safer bet. Type 31, for example, should be easy to adapt. All diesel already. VL Mica NG could go where the Sea Ceptors are. Carry over as much as the Martadinata fit as wished (same CMS), with lots of space for extras, such as reinstating the Iver Huitfeldt's torpedoes. OMT and/or BMT would be happy to do it, & both have experience of designing ships to be built in other countries - successfully.

I'd like to see the Japanese break into the warship export market, but I'm a bit unsure whether this is the right opportunity. It's not just because I'm prejudiced in favour of OMT, though I am (some of my ancestors worked in the Odense shipyards, 200 years ago): I can't help wondering if they're prepared for the degree of change to the equipment Indonesia is likely to want.

I also highly doubt that the current government will accept and order the 8 warships. Its just an offer from the Japanese.
How longer i observe this administration how more sceptical i become about their willingness to spend money on large defence procurements, on projects which really increase the strength of the armed forces. Projects which Indonesia's armed forces need to have some deterrence and the ability to defend the territorial waters and EEZ in North Natuna Sea.

The chance that the planned $720 million will be spend on two frigates from Odense or K. Schelde is very small, so i can not believe that they suddenly agree to spend $2881 million on 8 advanced and powerful warships.

Like you said, choosing from the start a European CODAD design like the Type 31, Iver Huitfeldt or Omega will be a safer, more logical and practical decision. Even if the equipment is 'downgraded' to SIGMA 10514 level, its still more advanced and superior than anything else the TNI-AL has before the arrival of the Martadinatas.

 

[Ananda]

I'd like to see the Japanese break into the warship export market, but I'm a bit unsure whether this is the right opportunity. It's not just because I'm prejudiced in favour of OMT, though I am (some of my ancestors worked in the Odense shipyards, 200 years ago): I can't help wondering if they're prepared for the degree of change to the equipment Indonesia is likely to want

@swerve Regardless whether the deal with Indonesia will happen or not, the question you put will be interesting if we see the program it self. Unlike previous design from Japanese shipbuilders, for 30FFM seems to me MHI already prepared themselves for modular approach.

Just my understanding, MHI for this design prepared not only for JMSDF market but also export market. For that, they must be understood that some undertaking will be need to prepare the design on different set of equipment and weapons system. Something that are not usual set that being prepared for JMSDF.

I just see that 30FFM program will be different than other programs for Japanese shipbuilders that from beginning being prepared only for JMSDF or Japanese Coast Guard.
Still, it will be interesting if we can see how flexibility this design is or how MHI themselves already prepared for Export Market.

One thing from Euro Shipyards, they are already preparing themselves more to export market. Thus the design themselves are already make from beginning to be flexible for every possible set of equipment and sensors. This's seems what MHI aim with 30FFM.

 

[Ananda]

The chance that the planned $720 million will be spend on two frigates from Odense or K. Schelde is very small, so i can not believe that they suddenly agree to spend $2881 million on 8 advanced and powerful warships.

As can be seen on my previous posts, I do always have doubts with seriousness of this administration defense implementation projects. Especially during the first term. However, this time around I begin to see signs they might be more serious in Implementation.

As my I posted in my previous posts, all big defense procurement in Indonesia since Soeharto era has been using Foreign Credits. It's more convenient also to Foreign suppliers, as it gave them more secure financing back up. Direct used from annual budget or domestic credit mostly for smaller transaction or procurement to local suppliers.

Thus I always watch the activities from Ministry of Finance or Bapenas. Using foreign credits will usually has to get approval from either one or both of them (especially ministry of finance). As I see in the SBY era, any procurement or contracts with Foreign Suppliers especially big ones will create chain of transaction agreement in Ministry of Finance. If from Ministry of Finance still back and forth to Defense Ministry, means the budget preparations from MinDef is not proper yet (as much happen during First Term MinDef of this administration).

However seems (at least from my understanding) this time around Ministry of Finance already involved on discussion with Foreign Creditors (meaning they already move to the next steps). For me, this's more important than just the talk from MinDef or any Political factions in Parliament.
You can't expect anything serious will happen unless the ones that hold the purse already involved.

Still let's see how this implementation on defense will continue. I also still have my doubt, due to historical progress on this administration on defense implementation.

Many of Indonesian forumers and fans boys always forgot, that the financial contracts of many projects in First Term of Jokowi's administration already sign in SBY's term. Yes, the payments will be carried forward to Jokowi's term, but the order of financial contracts especially with foreign Creditors already done before that.

That's the most important thing, not MOU, or Preliminary Contract, but the financial commitment of procurement payments. If it's signed already than the money will come out. Simply said, you can hold and change your MOU or Contracts with Suppliers, however if you already sign with Creditors especially foreign/global ones, then you can't back away. It can have effect toward whole economy as reflection toward Indonesia Soeverign Credit Rating.

So any procurement can be said being done if your financial commitment to Foreign Credits being signed. That's belong to Ministry of Finance and not MinDef. That's the cue for me to see if the Procurement being done or still in the talks.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

I dont have a financial background, so i lack any knowledge about the world of economy/financials, but is it normal/international standard to borrow money (cicilan) for defence procurements from the providing country, or is this just a facility provided for Third World Countries with a weak economy? Having debts is always more expensive than paying with your own budget.

 

[Ananda]

dont have a financial background, so i lack any knowledge about the world of economy/financials, but is it normal/international standard to borrow money (cicilan) for defence procurements from the providing country, or is this just a facility provided for Third World Countries with a weak economy?

Credit line is normal on any export transaction. Especially large one, whether it's for Defense, Infrastructure or Commercial ones. In fact the more established your Economy is, the more likely you used Credit Line.

The thing is, any large project/procurement will run in Multi Years to full fill. That's why I applaud Ministry of Finance effort to discipline all procurement projects based on Multi Years. Multi Years budgeting will make discipline payment procedures, which in turn will be more accountable.

However for Suppliers, they need payment in front actually to conduct the production. That's where the Lenders coming to guarantee the payment, while the buyers (in this case Indonesian Ministry of Finance and MinDef) engage with Lenders to open Credit Line. Basically the Lenders give money as working capital to Suppliers in order to enable them conducting Production.

Lenders can be commercial Banks or Financial Institution, or with the case of US, defense procurement usually conducted through US Exim Bank.
I have put in one of the post, forgot in this thread or Indonesian AF ones. My understanding, US conduct defense export deal on different matter. Usually they export Defense Items that being produce in the line of their owned Military procurement. That's why the call it mostly as Foreign Defense Surplus items. Thus US government pay it first to defense contractor, and sell it to foreign nation through Credit Line from their own Exim Bank.

However basically US the only Nation that can do it, as their own military procurement is Huge. Euro Nation's usually conducted export through Commercial Banks or Financial Institution.

For smaller items, not all need Credit Line. Usually the production run regularly, thus you can order directly to suppliers without the need for Credit Line. However if you choose, you also can do it. Just like I state above, the more developed your Economy are, the more likely you used Credit Line.

Just Add:
Iran during Shah era or Rich Gulf Kingdoms from what my understanding, usually conducted their transaction directly from their own cash. Thus the Banks usually only goes as Medium to send the money. This due to their own huge cash reserve. However most nation including OECD nation's did not want to used their reserve like that. Thus they are doing it on multi years payment through Financial Institution as Guarantors. Thus they use Credit Lines.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Credit line is normal on any export transaction. Especially large one, whether it's for Defense, Infrastructure or Commercial ones. In fact the more established your Economy is, the more likely you used Credit Line.

The thing is, any large project/procurement will run in Multi Years to full fill. That's why I applaud Ministry of Finance effort to discipline all procurement projects based on Multi Years. Multi Years budgeting will make discipline payment procedures, which in turn will be more accountable.

However for Suppliers, they need payment in front actually to conduct the production. That's where the Lenders coming to guarantee the payment, while the buyers (in this case Indonesian Ministry of Finance and MinDef) engage with Lenders to open Credit Line. Basically the Lenders give money as working capital to Suppliers in order to enable them conducting Production.

Lenders can be commercial Banks or Financial Institution, or with the case of US, defense procurement usually conducted through US Exim Bank.
I have put in one of the post, forgot in this thread or Indonesian AF ones. My understanding, US conduct defense export deal on different matter. Usually they export Defense Items that being produce in the line of their owned Military procurement. That's why the call it mostly as Foreign Defense Surplus items. Thus US government pay it first to defense contractor, and sell it to foreign nation through Credit Line from their own Exim Bank.

However basically US the only Nation that can do it, as their own military procurement is Huge. Euro Nation's usually conducted export through Commercial Banks or Financial Institution.

For smaller items, not all need Credit Line. Usually the production run regularly, thus you can order directly to suppliers without the need for Credit Line. However if you choose, you also can do it. Just like I state above, the more developed your Economy are, the more likely you used Credit Line.

Just Add:
Iran during Shah era or Rich Gulf Kingdoms from what my understanding, usually conducted their transaction directly from their own cash. Thus the Banks usually only goes as Medium to send the money. This due to their own huge cash reserve. However most nation including OECD nation's did not want to used their reserve like that. Thus they are doing it on multi years payment through Financial Institution as Guarantors. Thus they use Credit Lines.

Thank you so much for your explanation!
Its really nice to have you here with us....


I just checked the status of the North Sea Boat/Pindad Tankboat.
This article is from 28 Mei 2019.

Indonesia's MoD Orders X18 'Tank Boat' Prototype from North Sea Boats - Naval News

The Indonesian Ministry of Defence recently ordered a first prototype of the so called X18 « Tank Boat », which is being designed since 2011 by a consortium composed of PT Pindad, North Sea Boats (PT Lundin) and the Belgian turret maker John Cockerill (formerly known as CMI Group).

www.navalnews.com

"North Sea Boats should launch the Tank Boat prototype by the end of the year, along with a new trimaran prototype based on the X3K design already built and launched in August 2012 (but destroyed in a fire)."

Now, november 2020, not much happened yet, for some reason NSB works quite slowly. But maybe its caused by one of their partners in this project.


This is a more recent article, from 1 September 2020.

Usai Maung, PT Pindad Produksi Tank Boat Antasena APC-30 |Republika Online

Mayjen (Purn) Jan Pieter Ate kritik langkah Menhan Prabowo akan beli Typhoon bekas.

m.republika.co.id

"“Ini coming soon, available tahun 2021. Tentu saja kendaraan tersebut dilengkapi senjata mesin untuk digunakan personel TNI,” ujar Ade seperti dikutip dari republika.co.id"

It seems that the first version will be the Antasena APC-30, with a 30 mm RCWS.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Credit line is normal on any export transaction. Especially large one, whether it's for Defense, Infrastructure or Commercial ones. In fact the more established your Economy is, the more likely you used Credit Line.

The thing is, any large project/procurement will run in Multi Years to full fill. That's why I applaud Ministry of Finance effort to discipline all procurement projects based on Multi Years. Multi Years budgeting will make discipline payment procedures, which in turn will be more accountable.

However for Suppliers, they need payment in front actually to conduct the production. That's where the Lenders coming to guarantee the payment, while the buyers (in this case Indonesian Ministry of Finance and MinDef) engage with Lenders to open Credit Line. Basically the Lenders give money as working capital to Suppliers in order to enable them conducting Production.

Lenders can be commercial Banks or Financial Institution, or with the case of US, defense procurement usually conducted through US Exim Bank.
I have put in one of the post, forgot in this thread or Indonesian AF ones. My understanding, US conduct defense export deal on different matter. Usually they export Defense Items that being produce in the line of their owned Military procurement. That's why the call it mostly as Foreign Defense Surplus items. Thus US government pay it first to defense contractor, and sell it to foreign nation through Credit Line from their own Exim Bank.

However basically US the only Nation that can do it, as their own military procurement is Huge. Euro Nation's usually conducted export through Commercial Banks or Financial Institution.

For smaller items, not all need Credit Line. Usually the production run regularly, thus you can order directly to suppliers without the need for Credit Line. However if you choose, you also can do it. Just like I state above, the more developed your Economy are, the more likely you used Credit Line.

Just Add:
Iran during Shah era or Rich Gulf Kingdoms from what my understanding, usually conducted their transaction directly from their own cash. Thus the Banks usually only goes as Medium to send the money. This due to their own huge cash reserve. However most nation including OECD nation's did not want to used their reserve like that. Thus they are doing it on multi years payment through Financial Institution as Guarantors. Thus they use Credit Lines.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1325218473941766144

Do you think this statement as based on facts, or purely based on guessing and imaginations?

 

[Stampede]

30FFM will be more than enough for What Indonesia need. However 300 bio Yen reflect for USD 350+ Mio per ship. Which incidently also in similar ball park with per ship cost for Iver Based Frigates. So yes, I don't think it's the same 30FFM being build for JMSDF but will be adjust for TNI-AL need. I also believe it will be CODAD. All Frigates design that being circulate for TNI-AL whether Odense Iver, Naval Group FTI, or Damen Omega are offer for CODAD configuration. It will not be difficult to adjust the design from CODAG to CODAD.

This talk of 8 Frigates ships need, has been around for some time. Thus question now if they go with 8 MHI 30FFM, will there be another ships from Odense ?

For me, If Japan really want to co-op for 30FFM Frigates (well they're already shown this design in several International venue), then it's another ball game for Indonesia. Japan after all economically still one of the most Important country for Trade and Investment to Indonesia. Indonesian automobile and truck industries basically are part of Japan industrial chain.

If this deal being package for another Investment packages in infrastructure and industrial, then it's a formidable package to be challenge by other potential Frigates supplier from Netherlands, Denmark or French.

There's talk on Electric cars manufacturing from Hyundai and potentially Tesla, also Chinese also plan to provide Industrial Investment for electric commercial truck. This all part of Nickel and Battery Industrial scheme, that being plan in Indonesia. Japan I do believe want to be part of that. They don't want to lose their influence in Indonesia that being put for the last 50 years to China.

So yes, we will still have to see what will happen. However if Japan want to play the defense game with Indonesia now, it's can be more clout due to Japan influence in Indonesian economy.

A tidy looking ship

Just wondering if Japan have previously exported any naval vessels to a foreign customer.
Either new build or second hand?


Regards S

 

[Ahmad]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1325218473941766144

Do you think this statement as based on facts, or purely based on guessing and imaginations?

This type of contract will give PT PAL more advantage as it is the most experience shipbuilding company in Indonesia in term of weapon and sensor integration. I think PT PAL will likely to win the tender for 2 OPV and it can include another possible KCR 60 missile boats order if this is really the case.

Japan can only win frigates/destroyer order from Indonesia if the price is competitive enough and all the ships will be manufactured in Indonesia just like what Denmark has offered us.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

A tidy looking ship

Just wondering if Japan have previously exported any naval vessels to a foreign customer.
Either new build or second hand?


Regards S

As far as i know mostly donations. But it seems that Japan has exported patrolboats to the Vietnamese Coastguard.

Japan donates patrol boats to Coast Guard

The Japanese government on Thursday has donated patrol watercrafts to the Philippine Coast Guard as part of its commitment to help boost the country’s maritime security.

www.philstar.com

Japan donates patrol boats to Kenya - defenceWeb

Japan has donated 17 patrol boats to Kenya to help the East African country improve maritime security. The boats were handed over to the Maritime Police at the Port of Mombasa by Japanese Ambassador to Kenya Ryoichi Horie on 2 October. “In order to support Kenya’s efforts in strengthening...

www.defenceweb.co.za

Japan Patrol Vessel Donation to Help Palau Counter Maritime Threats

The waters around Palau are connected to Japan’s national security. With this in mind, the Nippon Foundation recently donated a new 40-meter patrol boat to help the small Pacific nation enhance maritime security in the area surrounding Micronesia.

www.nippon.com

Japan to provide Vietnam with six patrol ships amid South China Sea tensions

The Japan International Cooperation Agency signed the US$345 million loan agreement to provide the Vietnam Coast Guard with new patrol vessels.

www.scmp.com

 

[ngatimozart]

This type of contract will give PT PAL more advantage as it is the most experience shipbuilding company in Indonesia in term of weapon and sensor integration. I think PT PAL will likely to win the tender for 2 OPV and it can include another possible KCR 60 missile boats order if this is really the case.

Japan can only win frigates/destroyer order from Indonesia if the price is competitive enough and all the ships will be manufactured in Indonesia just like what Denmark has offered us.

Yes, but is the source reliable, reputable and valid? Or is he just another fanboy blowing hot air and making things up to look good? Just because someone blogs and claims that they might know something, doesn't make them an authoritative source. What are this fanboy's sources and how valid are they?

I, other Moderators, Defence Professionals, and other posters, have been following the discussions within the Indonesian threads with great interest because it is an area that we are not overly familiar with and it's excellent to have an Indonesian view on things because you have a different world view to those of us in New Zealand, Australia, Singapore, UK, US, Canada, Europe etc.

You have a history of making assumptions based on flimsy evidence at best. It's not how we do things and we have a requirement for sources that are reputable, reliable, and verifiable. We are a professionally run defence forum which is run and administered by mostly defence professionals. Generally we enjoy your posts but we have the expectations that our rules are followed, and you have been on here long enough to know what they are. I know that @Ananda and @Sandhi Yudha have taken a lot of time and gone out of their way to help and encourage you. However the Moderators patience is wearing thin. We've censured other posters for less and far quicker.

This is a friendly gentle reminder and not in green or red text. However if the Moderators have to intervene again we won't be so friendly, so please take note.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Oh sorry....maybe i shouldn't have posted Alman Helvas tweet...

Ananda knows a lot about economy and financial things, so I just wondered if he could confirm Almans' statement.

 

[Ananda]

Ananda knows a lot about economy and financial things, so I just wondered if he could confirm Almans' statement.

@Sandhi Yudha , the way I see it, is part on how project management and budgeting being done.
They have no choice to do FFBNW before, due to how budget being prepared. When you prepared budget for single year/annual disbursement, means for every year you have to submit what you are going to procure. Thus if you don't have enough budget for financing complete project on one payment, then you have to submit every year on other stages in order to complete one project.

On the other hand, if you doing your budget as multi years, then it's like one continues staging term projects. However by doing so, you have to prepare and forecast detail progress of each project stage from beginning and commit financing to the time line of project schedule management.

In annual payment budget, you can derived on stages progress, either postpone or changing vendor. It's more flexible in some ways as provide room to deviation on projects schedule. In turn it's potentially more expensive, since vendors has to work with less guarantee on schedule payment or even their work project.
While compared to Multi Years budget management payment schedule, their stages progress already prepared from beginning. Thus means their project order have more transparency from beginning.

This's something that many in local forums and media don't realize, why Ministry of Finance demand changes on budgeting proposal as to has being done now on Multi Years budgeting schedule. Many think it's only changing budgeting process. In truth it's changing the way project management being done.
In short if Multi Years Budgeting term being done in detail and discipline, what that Alman wrote in his tweet can be done.

Multi Years budgeting process actually already being done for long time in commercial based projects. However seems now beginning to be implemented more discipline toward Government projects in Indonesia.

Why it's not being done before ? Two thing: First It's more complicated and detail to arrange. You basically has to prepare terms financing and commit on multi years payment schedule.
Secondly (more importantly in Indonesia case) it's more transparent in staging process as cost management being lock from beginning. Reducing chances for "deviation". Well, more transparent doesn't mean a preference for many Government Projects .

So if this administration especially MinDef able to do it in discpline way, then it can be a changes on how their Projects being construct and implement. In the end, I can't confirm what that Alman tweet can be happening smoothly. However I do see that there's more effort by Ministry of Finance by pushing multi years budgeting to all other Departments including MinDef, to be more details and transparent on doing Project management.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

@Sandhi Yudha , the way I see it, is part on how project management and budgeting being done.
They have no choice to do FFBNW before, due to how budget being prepared. When you prepared budget for single year/annual disbursement, means for every year you have to submit what you are going to procure. Thus if you don't have enough budget for financing complete project on one payment, then you have to submit every year on other stages in order to complete one project.

On the other hand, if you doing your budget as multi years, then it's like one continues staging term projects. However by doing so, you have to prepare and forecast detail progress of each project stage from beginning and commit financing to the time line of project schedule management.

In annual payment budget, you can derived on stages progress, either postpone or changing vendor. It's more flexible in some ways as provide room to deviation on projects schedule. In turn it's potentially more expensive, since vendors has to work with less guarantee on schedule payment or even their work project.
While compared to Multi Years budget management payment schedule, their stages progress already prepared from beginning. Thus means their project order have more transparency from beginning.

This's something that many in local forums and media don't realize, why Ministry of Finance demand changes on budgeting proposal as to has being done now on Multi Years budgeting schedule. Many think it's only changing budgeting process. In truth it's changing the way project management being done.
In short if Multi Years Budgeting term being done in detail and discipline, what that Alman wrote in his tweet can be done.

Multi Years budgeting process actually already being done for long time in commercial based projects. However seems now beginning to be implemented more discipline toward Government projects in Indonesia.

Why it's not being done before ? Two thing: First It's more complicated and detail to arrange. You basically has to prepare terms financing and commit on multi years payment schedule.
Secondly (more importantly in Indonesia case) it's more transparent in staging process as cost management being lock from beginning. Reducing chances for "deviation". Well, more transparent doesn't mean a preference for many Government Projects .

So if this administration especially MinDef able to do it in discpline way, then it can be a changes on how their Projects being construct and implement. In the end, I can't confirm what that Alman tweet can be happening smoothly. However I do see that there's more effort by Ministry of Finance by pushing multi years budgeting to all other Departments including MinDef, to be more details and transparent on doing Project management.

Thank you for your explanation.


From which i understand, the Chief of Staff of the Indonesian Navy tells that the Navy never requested to MinDef for the Iver Huitfeldts. He also tells that the replacement of amphibious tanks and some old naval vessels have a higher priority.

KSAL Bantah TNI AL Incar Kapal Iver Huitfeldt |Republika Online

Menurut KSAL, Korps Marinir TNI AL selalu hadir untuk NKRI!

m.republika.co.id

Btw...any news about this order? The contract is signed almost two years ago.

CONTRACT SIGNED FOR TWO MINE COUNTER MEASURE VESSELS - Abeking & Rasmussen

news bild_text 0 8570 datei 8573 Contract-for-two-MCMV.pdf 1

www.abeking.com

 

[Ananda]

the Chief of Staff of the Indonesian Navy tells that the Navy never requested to MinDef for the Iver Huitfeldts.

If this's coming from more reputable media like Tempo, perhaps there's more credibility on that. Republika known from time to time got 'less' rigid editorial control on what their reporters write.

KSAL Ajukan Modernisasi Ranpur Amfibi dan KRI ke Kemhan

Kepala Staf Angkatan Laut (KSAL) Laksamana TNI Yudo Margono menuturkan, alutsista yang akan dimodernisasi tersebut terutama kendaraan tempur (ranpur) jenis Amfibi....

nasional.sindonews.com

The same occasion but from different media. Sindo put that the Chief of Navy did not say the Navy did not ask for Iver as Republika put in their article, however saying that Procurement is MinDef authority and not the Armed Forces Branch like them. They're more on asking modernisation program for existing assets.

This example of how Journalists wrote something that seems not entirely 'correct' on the context. Moreover many media in Indonesia presently has 'political' agenda behind them. Even Tempo or Kompas as two leading media has it. However they have more 'professional' media track record.

Anyway, just like I put on my previous posts. The Armed Forces brass and even MinDef Officials can say anything, but unless the budget or the Credit Lines already approved and being execute by Ministry of Finance then the projects still not reach implementation stage.

 

[Ananda]

Talking about Iver based project as I've mentioned on other Indonesian AF, nearly all Foreign Procurement or Procurement which involves Foreign Supplier usually has to involved Foreign Credit Line.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1329549009208307713

As we all know only to take grain of salt on his Twitter, I can only state that if it's true that Iver Project already stated on Foreign Credit Line proposal, then it's potential to come to fruition only one step away.

I my self only got info that MinDef already put proposal for Foreign Credit Lines as part of 2020-2024 defense multi years projects financings.
Thus any projects that the credit lines got approval from Both Ministry of Finance and Bapenas, and chances it will be proceed to Financing contract.

Interestingly, based on Japanese media (as put before) and from what I also gather. Japan seems doing different approach on potential export of defense equipment to Indonesia (30 FFM). Their approach is have similarities as Joint Project under JICA (Japan International Cooperation Agency).

In such like JICA MRT/Subway project in Jakarta, the Japanese Contractor will form join project with Indonesian Contractor. Indonesian Contractor will do ground work and Japanese Contractor will supply equipments and parts.
That's why MHI doing assessment of Indonesian Shipyards they can take as Partners.

For that the Financing will be 'different' in sort than usual Foreign Credit Line. If this true, then it's one way of Japan to provide different kind of financing to cut other Euro Naval Suppliers. Quite interesting how this turn out. More importantly if this come to fruition, then shown other ways of Japan to win defense export deals.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Y

Talking about Iver based project as I've mentioned on other Indonesian AF, nearly all Foreign Procurement or Procurement which involves Foreign Supplier usually has to involved Foreign Credit Line.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1329549009208307713

As we all know only to take grain of salt on his Twitter, I can only state that if it's true that Iver Project already stated on Foreign Credit Line proposal, then it's potential to come to fruition only one step away.

I my self only got info that MinDef already put proposal for Foreign Credit Lines as part of 2020-2024 defense multi years projects financings.
Thus any projects that the credit lines got approval from Both Ministry of Finance and Bapenas, and chances it will be proceed to Financing contract.

Interestingly, based on Japanese media (as put before) and from what I also gather. Japan seems doing different approach on potential export of defense equipment to Indonesia (30 FFM). Their approach is have similarities as Joint Project under JICA (Japan International Cooperation Agency).

In such like JICA MRT/Subway project in Jakarta, the Japanese Contractor will form join project with Indonesian Contractor. Indonesian Contractor will do ground work and Japanese Contractor will supply equipments and parts.
That's why MHI doing assessment of Indonesian Shipyards they can take as Partners.

For that the Financing will be 'different' in sort than usual Foreign Credit Line. If this true, then it's one way of Japan to provide different kind of financing to cut other Euro Naval Suppliers. Quite interesting how this turn out. More importantly if this come to fruition, then shown other ways of Japan to win defense export deals.

Yes i read this post from the Oracle on Twitter, but as always he does not show any proofs or links to the source of information/references.

 

[Ananda]

Yes, his twitt can only put as 'rumours'. He's talking on December announcement, which according to budget practice usually in April. So his source I believe more on 'Coffee Stall' talks. Still as MinDef more and more getting tighter lips, then the rumours sources like his twitter getting more and more used as references by Indonesian defense enthusiasts.

For me, the government priority now is getting Vaccines. Thus unless they already shown the results of vaccination program doing relative well, they are not going move forward on other projects announcement. They target the initial vaccination program by end of this year or Q1 next year.

This will coincides with April budget year, if anything can be more clear, it will be toward that period.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

If the Iver Huitfeldt design will be chosen by Mindef, then its for sure that Indonesia will not order any 30FFM.

But as you said, its better to wait until next year (or 2024) to see what will happen.