Indonesia: 'green water navy'

Sandhi Yudha

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Ananda said:
It depends with new malaysian government, weather they will still give go ahead to MRSS program. Reading some Malaysian forum, there seems some questions on continuity for MRSS need. There are some talks new Malaysian government will make some changes on their 5 types fleet plan.

Seems reading PAL media announcement..they are now hoping on more deal from Philipines. They are also pitching LPD deal in Thailand, but they will face strong competition from ST Marine there.
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Ive found several links with the same article...
DEFENSE STUDIES: PT PAL Fokus Garap Pasar Asia
PT PAL Fokus Garap Pasar Asia - Bisnis Syariah
In both articles:
"Untuk Malaysia sudah ada kontrak pesanan kapal perang jenis LPD yang dinamakan Multirole Support Ship (MRSS). Kapal MRSS sudah dibuat sejak tahun lalu dengan panjang 163 meter.

“Ada 2 unit LPD RMSS yang dibutuhkan Malaysia, bahannya berkualitas dan lebih panjang yang memiliki kemampuan di antaranya pendaratan pasukan dan melakukan pendaratan pasukan helikopter serta tank,” jelasnya."
I can not believe one of those large ships are suddenly already built....


But this one is a little bit different with little bit more info:
PT PAL Gerilya Bidik Pasar Malaysia, Filipina dan Thailand
"Sedangkan di Filipina berencana akan membeli 2 unit kapal jenis Strategic Sealift Vessel (SSV) dengan spesifikasi sama dengan kapal yang sebelumnya dibuat oleh PT PAL. "Tapi mereka menanyakan ke Korea dan Belanda."
Of course the products of South-Korea and the Netherlands are much more expensive, so we make a good chance to win this contract.
 
Sandhi Yudha

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Old article from 2017...
Indonesia delays decommissioning of Ahmad Yani-class frigates amid South China Sea obligations | Jane's 360

Still no additional orders after the first two SIGMA 10514 class frigates.


Indonesia restores damaged sonar on Diponegoro-class corvette
Ridzwan Rahmat, Singapore - Jane's Navy International
30 July 2018


The Indonesian Navy's Diponegoro (Sigma)-class corvette, KRI Frans Kaisiepo. Source: Damen
The Indonesian Navy (Tentara Nasional Indonesia Angkatan Laut: TNI-AL) has restored the hull-mounted sonar system of its Diponegoro (Sigma)-class corvette that ran aground in January 2015.

Complete article at Indonesia restores damaged sonar on Diponegoro-class corvette | Jane's 360
 
S

Stampede

Well-Known Member
Sandhi Yudha said:
At last, some news about the fifth LPD (excluding KRI Soeharso 990) which is under construction.
This ship was recently launched, on Friday 3 August 2018 at the PAL shipyard in Surabaya.
Some news article links.
PT PAL Luncurkan LPD Produksi Ke-5, KRI Semarang 594 – Indomiliter.com
PT PAL Luncurkan LPD Produksi Ke-5, KRI Semarang 594

A short video.
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There is a lot to like about these ships for capability and price.
Certainly a good fit for Indonesia and many other maritime nations seeking military lift with some aviation capacity.

Would something of this size have a place in New Zealand's naval line-up.

Regards S
 
ngatimozart

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Stampede said:
Would something of this size have a place in New Zealand's naval line-up.
Regards S
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Actually something like this:

RNZN ST Endurance E-170 LHD.jpg

The (ST Marine) Endurance 170 has a length of 170 metres, a breadth of 30.8 metres, a draft of 6.6 metres for a full load displacement of 19,000 tons. The ship crew complement is 140 sailors, the air crew 150 sailors and the vessel can accommodate 400 troops. The design has a maximum speed of 20 knots, a range of 7000 nautical miles at 15 knots and an endurance of 30 days at sea. The design features a well deck as well which can launch and recover four landing craft. Vehicle decks can receive 17 MBTs and 16 armoured vehicles.

In terms of sensors and systems, Endurance 170 base configuration consists in a 76mm main gun, 4x 30mm secondary guns, 2x RAM launchers, 16x VLS for SAM, a fire control radar, a 3D surveillance radar, C-ESM and R-ESM sensors, two electro-optic sensors.
IMDEX Asia 2017: ST Marine Unveiled the Endurance 170 LHD
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FORBIN

FORBIN

Member
They buy step by step and they are not big changes.

ASEAN countries despite better economy are not rich exept Singapore but very small country with again limited budgets Indonesia buy small batch of weapons severals Su-30MK2 same for Su-35 a small Sqn AH-64 only 8 etc... and don' t have MSCs only SSCs combattants of 3rd rank at the best only 2 ASEAN coutries have better ships with MR SAM Singapore and Thailand and 0 AEGIS ships for these countries then only Chinese southern forces are more powerful and they need reinforcements eventualy or completely outmatched ...
 
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S

swerve

Super Moderator
Stampede said:
There is a lot to like about these ships for capability and price.
Certainly a good fit for Indonesia and many other maritime nations seeking military lift with some aviation capacity.

Would something of this size have a place in New Zealand's naval line-up.

Regards S
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From what I've read I think that they're very basic, & designed for a relatively large crew. A good buy for a fairly poor country with low pay & where potential recruits are accustomed to basic housing, but not so much for rich countries with different cost structures & accommodation expectations by recruits.

See the customers. Excellent ships for Indonesia & the Philippines, I think. Probably not for New Zealand, at least without major internal rework.
 
Sandhi Yudha

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
swerve said:
From what I've read I think that they're very basic, & designed for a relatively large crew. A good buy for a fairly poor country with low pay & where potential recruits are accustomed to basic housing, but not so much for rich countries with different cost structures & accommodation expectations by recruits.

See the customers. Excellent ships for Indonesia & the Philippines, I think. Probably not for New Zealand, at least without major internal rework.
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Yes, for a limited budget you will get a great ship, but of course it is just an empty ship with a simple basic navigation radar. So it is without any military grade search radars, ECM or decent armament. I expect, the ship under construction, KRI Semarang 594, will also be very basic, with maybe only some machine guns and an old obsolete second hand manually operated small calibre cannon.

One anti-ship missile, and we have lost a great LPD with hundreds of marines on board.
 
Sandhi Yudha

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Indonesia allocates USD1.9 million for consultancy work on sixth submarine
Ridzwan Rahmat, Singapore - Jane's Navy International
27 August 2018


Key Points
  • Indonesia has moved closer towards acquiring a sixth submarine for its navy
  • Consultancy project aimed at establishing more beneficial technology transfer arrangements

More at: Indonesia allocates USD1.9 million for consultancy work on sixth submarine | Jane's 360


It is not yet clear if they want to continue with the Type 209, or another kind of submarine...
 
Ananda

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Seems from what PT. PAL or Minded indication lately..it's speculated still 209 derived. However this move on consultancy project seems more on the internal design.
Based on what PAL doing on LPD and Light Frigates project..it's more likely they want to enhance the modules, but keep the basic design.

Some in local media and forums speculated that Navy wants to study possibilities on enhancement the design to include more up dated sensors and propulsion systems such as AIP.

However completely new design is not out also, considering they (PAL) have talk with French and Turk's/German vendors for Scorpene and 214 designs..however in my opinion, they will still go with 209 derived design..after all 209 is still reliable design for litoral and near blue water operation that Indonesian Subs build for..
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Although the four boats are delivered around 1980, they are still very capable and are one of the fastest vessels of our navy. But im glad there are no casualties.
Urutan Kejadian Terbakarnya KRI Rencong 622
11 Sep 2018


dok. KRI Rencong 622. (Dispenal)

Jakarta, Jakartagreater.com – Setelah musibah terbakarnya KRI Rencong-622 dan tenggelam di perairan Sorong, Papua Barat, Selasa 11/9/2018, TNI AL menjelaskan urutan-urutan kejadian dan upaya penanggulangan kebakaran di kapal perang kelas kapal cepat berpeluru kendali itu, dirlis Antara.



Pada saat kejadian, cuaca cerah dan gelombang laut dalam kondisi landai. Kebakaran berujung pada kapal perang tenggelam ini terjadi hanya sehari setelah TNI AL menggelar upacara peringatan HUT Ke-73 TNI AL di dermaga Pondok Dayung, Jakarta Utara.

Dinas Penerangan TNI AL, dalam keterangannya dari Jakarta, Selasa, menyatakan, kapal perang dengan senjata utama sistem peluru kendali permukaan-ke-permukaan dan permukaan-ke-udara MM-39 Exocet buatan Aerospatiale, Prancis, itu dalam status bawah kendali operasi Gugus Keamanan Laut Armada III TNI AL.

Musibah ini terjadi pada saat KRI Rencong-622 bergerak dari laut menuju dermaga umum Sorong untuk melaksanakan bekal ulang air tawar di Pelabuhan Sorong.

Sekitar pukul 07.00 WIT, kapal melaksanakan pemanasan turbin gas, dimulai dengan start sistem unit pendukung daya tambahan (APU) turbin gas sebagai bagian dari sistem propulsi utamanya. Turbin gas mesin kapal perang buatan Korea Selatan itu sempat hidup dan kemudian mati.
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Complete article at:Urutan Kejadian Terbakarnya KRI Rencong 622 - JakartaGreater
 
t68

t68

Well-Known Member
Didn’t they have another new boat catch fire a few years ago, must be jinxed or something
 
Ananda

Ananda

The Bunker Group
t68 said:
Didn’t they have another new boat catch fire a few years ago, must be jinxed or something
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That's the North Sea Boats that Forbin mentioned above. No other KRI vessel got fire before this KRI Rencong incident. The previous incident was from one of Parchim class Corvette that run aground near Medan..which then write off due to damage considered significant enough that not economical worth to repaired.

The fire incident evaluation on KRI Rencong is not finish yet, and as the media report in Sandhi Yudha post mentioned..so far indication tend to shown problem on Gas Turbines.

TNI-AL vessels mostly Diesel propeled and this class of FPB as far as I know is the only class of vessel in the active inventory that using Gas Turbines propulsion (GE LM 1500).
TNI-AL did not like Gas Turbine, due to high cost maintenance and operation for TNI-AL standard.

This South Korean class FPB should be part of FPB that 'sould' going to be replaced by locally build FPB such as PAL build KCR 60...however from what I heard there are rumoured TNI-AL still want to keep this class longer in inventory, due to the gas Turbines propulsion make them the fastest FPB (36-40 knots) in the inventory..faster than the new indigenous KCR60 FPB (28-30 knots).
Also decision to keep older FPB such this one in inventory longer despite new FPB coming, might influence by the need to augment the numbers of vessel needed.

There are speculation in local forums and media, that TNI-AL actually want to have the North Sea Boats stealth FPB as the replacement for this South Korean build boats.
However since the fire incidents on their prototype that mentioned before..the progress on new FPB from North Sea Boats run much slower..which seems indication in my opinion some changes on TNI-AL priority.
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Ananda said:
That's the North Sea Boats that Forbin mentioned above. No other KRI vessel got fire before this KRI Rencong incident. The previous incident was from one of Parchim class Corvette that run aground near Medan..which then write off due to damage considered significant enough that not economical worth to repaired.

The fire incident evaluation on KRI Rencong is not finish yet, and as the media report in Sandhi Yudha post mentioned..so far indication tend to shown problem on Gas Turbines.

TNI-AL vessels mostly Diesel propeled and this class of FPB as far as I know is the only class of vessel in the active inventory that using Gas Turbines propulsion (GE LM 1500).
TNI-AL did not like Gas Turbine, due to high cost maintenance and operation for TNI-AL standard.

This South Korean class FPB should be part of FPB that 'sould' going to be replaced by locally build FPB such as PAL build KCR 60...however from what I heard there are rumoured TNI-AL still want to keep this class longer in inventory, due to the gas Turbines propulsion make them the fastest FPB (36-40 knots) in the inventory..faster than the new indigenous KCR60 FPB (28-30 knots).
Also decision to keep older FPB such this one in inventory longer despite new FPB coming, might influence by the need to augment the numbers of vessel needed.

There are speculation in local forums and media, that TNI-AL actually want to have the North Sea Boats stealth FPB as the replacement for this South Korean build boats.
However since the fire incidents on their prototype that mentioned before..the progress on new FPB from North Sea Boats run much slower..which seems indication in my opinion some changes on TNI-AL priority.
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What PAL and TNI-AL should do is for example ordering four Gumdoksuri class patrol vessels from South-Korea with ToT like they did with the LPDs and the Type 209-1400. So the first vessels made in South-Korea, and the last ones at PAL.
 
Ananda

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Sandhi Yudha said:
What PAL and TNI-AL should do is for example ordering four Gumdoksuri class patrol vessels from South-Korea with ToT like they did with the LPDs and the Type 209-1400. So the first vessels made in South-Korea, and the last ones at PAL.
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For FPB, I don't think there are going to be any ToT agreement between PAL to foreign vendors since they are already have KCR 60.. technology wise there are not much difference in construction of KCR 60 or any foreign design FPB like Gumdoksori.

If any future ToT that being discussed between PAL and foreign vendors is for Destroyer design.
TNI-AL chief already stated in media that Van Speijk Frigates will be replaced by new Frigates which will be constructed by PAL.
However instead 6 SIGMA 10514 PKR design as previously planned..they are only going to be 4 10514 PKR, while the other 2 will be this Destroyer design.

This is what TNI-AL dreaming off from the 90's..2 AAW Destroyer (or NATO standard Frigates with AAW capabilities).
They hope to get 2 of that in 90's by buying ex Dutch Tromp..Asian Financial Crisis and East Timor stop that planning..
Then in first decade of 2000 they are talking on getting 2 refurbished Sovremenny..but considered not economical for long term operation..

Now they are planning again to get 2 AAW Destroyer or NATO standard AAW Frigates..which why they (PAL) are talking with Danes Iver, Dutch DZP, French-Italian FREEM or Korean KDX II designs as based for their ToT.
 
T

tonnyc

Well-Known Member
Sandhi Yudha said:
What PAL and TNI-AL should do is for example ordering four Gumdoksuri class patrol vessels from South-Korea with ToT like they did with the LPDs and the Type 209-1400. So the first vessels made in South-Korea, and the last ones at PAL.
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To add to what Ananda wrote earlier, the Indonesian Navy does not actually want fast patrol boats. They would like it, but they keep backing down once they realize how much patrol boats that are actually fast will cost. I talked to a PAL employee once that said that the KCR-60 was originally designed for 32 knots speed, but the Indonesian Navy asked for a less powerful engine to cut cost.

Given the above, it is highly unlikely that the Navy will order Gumdoksuri patrol boats. Even if they have the money they will prefer to channel it to other ships, such as that destroyer that Ananda mentioned. Personally I am skeptical of the utility of said destroyer in the Indonesian Navy. The navy would have been better off equipping the current fleet with relevant sensors and armaments. But of course, making sure that high ranking navy officers actually have ships appropriate to their high rank is more important than little things like war-fighting capability.
 
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