Tonnyc..isn't TNI-AL philosophy seems get the numbers of hull first and later add approprite sensors and equipment ?
Still this 4 PKR Frigates 10514 and 2 Destroyers will be the main capital ships for foreseeable future, while the backbone of TNI-AL will be the KCR 60 and 40 FPB's (off course 26-30 knots and not 36-40 knots FPB standard ).. and the plan OPV that are going to replace the Parchim.
So..sensors and equipment seems going to be procurred after the hull..
Not efficient way in my opinion..but seems that's what they are practicing so far..
So the plan is to replace the 6 Van Speijck/Ahmad Yani class frigates with 4 SIGMA 10514 frigates and 2 AAW-destroyers? Are these just wishes/unclear long term plans, or is it a real scheduled plan with budget reserved for it? I still remember the plan of the two Tromp-klasse frigates when they were retired in the '90s, but thats now twenty years ago.
Those AAW-destroyers are way too expensive, if i look now to the current state of acquisition policy, it is unrealistic. And even if it become reality, im afraid all these high-tech modern expensive vessels will be almost toothless and only equipped with some guns, to ensure there still is a huge gap between us and other countries and that our defeat is guaranteed by any serious conflict.
None of our warships has a decent air defence system, and there are no signs that that problem will be solved in the near future. Yes there was a news report that a transport company has imported three MICA missiles or something....but thats not a report to be taken seriously. Its on the same level as a news article which announce that three R-73 missiles are arrived for our Sukhoi fleet or that four 122 mm rockets are delivered for our RM-70 rocket launchers...
The Navy Chief already talk to media for 4 PKR 10514 and 2 Destroyers as replacement program for Van Speijk..
At first he told media there are going to be 4 PKR 10514 as additional to existing 2 PKR 10514. Thus will get 6 PKR to replace 6 Van Speijk. However on same occasion he also told media that TNI-AL already ask MinDef from 4 additional PKR, 2 will be switch to Destroyers size.
On other occasion PAL seems in talk with foreign vendors toward 140m - 150m Frigates design that mentioned before..
They already ask the budget..however when the allocation procurement begin..in my opinion after 2019 or next 5 year round.
Whether it's still 4 additional PKR as previously planned or become 2 PKR and 2 Destroyers..will remain to be seen.
For current year, PAL already talk in public that the program is for more KCR 60 and OPV and LPD no 5 ..so far publicly only saw KCR 60 and LPD..no further news on OPV construction (which being taunted as Parchim replacement)..
Still as I mentioned before, the priorities seems to get the hulls build first with basic sensors and electronics. The first batch of KCR 60 have additional electronics and sensors with intended armament being retrofitted after more than a year in active duty.
Why the hulls first ? In my opinion it's part of strategy to keep the shipyards naval program continous open..the complete equipments, sensors and weapons systems seems they (Navy) willing to let be second priorities..as long as they can get their new hulls with basics sensors , weapons and equipment..it's still acceptable by them..
The Navy Chief already talk to media for 4 PKR 10514 and 2 Destroyers as replacement program for Van Speijk..
At first he told media there are going to be 4 PKR 10514 as additional to existing 2 PKR 10514. Thus will get 6 PKR to replace 6 Van Speijk. However on same occasion he also told media that TNI-AL already ask MinDef from 4 additional PKR, 2 will be switch to Destroyers size.
On other occasion PAL seems in talk with foreign vendors toward 140m - 150m Frigates design that mentioned before..
They already ask the budget..however when the allocation procurement begin..in my opinion after 2019 or next 5 year round.
Whether it's still 4 additional PKR as previously planned or become 2 PKR and 2 Destroyers..will remain to be seen.
For current year, PAL already talk in public that the program is for more KCR 60 and OPV and LPD no 5 ..so far publicly only saw KCR 60 and LPD..no further news on OPV construction (which being taunted as Parchim replacement)..
Still as I mentioned before, the priorities seems to get the hulls build first with basic sensors and electronics. The first batch of KCR 60 have additional electronics and sensors with intended armament being retrofitted after more than a year in active duty.
Why the hulls first ? In my opinion it's part of strategy to keep the shipyards naval program continous open..the complete equipments, sensors and weapons systems seems they (Navy) willing to let be second priorities..as long as they can get their new hulls with basics sensors , weapons and equipment..it's still acceptable by them..
So it seems they are more interested in the Iver Huitfeldt-klasse than the FREMM or Zeven Provincieen classes for some reason. (Maybe cheaper?)
I am afraid that if they really order two ships, it will be a contract for two expensive but toothless ships, in a "fitted for but not with" configuration, so totally vulnerable for torpedo-, air strike- and anti-ship missile attacks...
Better news.
According some sources the last Type-209 submarine on order from South-Korea will be launched soon.
This video was uploaded last week.
Anyone more information about the KRI Alugoro 405?
Iver Huitfeldt design is getting tractions for Indonesian Navy full size Frigates program not only due to cost reasoning but also because Odense Maritime Tech (OMT) will provide all blue prints design to be build locally with PAL.
Since Odense shipyard already closed, then all the modules know how will be build on PAL..that's the offered that OMT give to PAL. Just like OMT doing when became part of one consortium that bidd Type 31 for RN.
Using FREEM or DZP based design probably will result not only on higher costs but also not all of the modules will be build by PAL.
However some talk that I heard on this Full Frigates program..the potential close competitors for Iver design is not come from FREEM or DZP..but from Korean KDXII design based. With PAL already have two South Korean design cooperation in term of LPD and SSK..another South Korean design has good potential to get the contract.
The Van Speijk replacement is being told to be all SIGMA 10514 PKR, but some talk from the Navy suggest that only 4 (instead previously plan 6) PKR will be build, while the #5&6 will be switched to this Full Frigates program.
Aluguro still scheduled to be launch by early next month. As you can see on that PAL Submarine facility video you have put..the 401 Tjakra already in that facility..as after Aluguro launch, the facility will be used for Tjakra upgrade.
Looking on how PAL developed their LPD from South Korean design, it's more likely that the next batch of Submarine being developed by them will used 209/1400 design also, but with more modules being build by PAL.
Seems in this month Infodefence 2018, 3 submarine suppliers will try to get contract for next batch of Submarine project.
However some unconfirmed report and some media leak from PT. PAL already indicated the next batch for Submarine #4 and #5 already secured for DSME with 209/1400 changbogo design as the one that being assemble and going to be launched by PAL.
The report indiciting that part of PAL transition toward full manufacturing for Submarine, total 5 209/1400 program actually involved.
With #1 & #2 being build in DSME, #3 assemble in PAL with modules supply by DSME, #4 PAL will manufactured some modules with front modules still supply by DSME and #5 will have all modules being manufactured by PAL.
So the offer for cooperation for Scorpene or 214 actually for Submarine #6, 7 and 8 (with potential to #9 and 10).
Again it's not confirmed yet..just some indication that floating around in local media and on line forums.
Iver Huitfeldt design is getting tractions for Indonesian Navy full size Frigates program not only due to cost reasoning but also because Odense Maritime Tech (OMT) will provide all blue prints design to be build locally with PAL.
Since Odense shipyard already closed, then all the modules know how will be build on PAL..that's the offered that OMT give to PAL. Just like OMT doing when became part of one consortium that bidd Type 31 for RN.
Using FREEM or DZP based design probably will result not only on higher costs but also not all of the modules will be build by PAL.
However some talk that I heard on this Full Frigates program..the potential close competitors for Iver design is not come from FREEM or DZP..but from Korean KDXII design based. With PAL already have two South Korean design cooperation in term of LPD and SSK..another South Korean design has good potential to get the contract.
The Van Speijk replacement is being told to be all SIGMA 10514 PKR, but some talk from the Navy suggest that only 4 (instead previously plan 6) PKR will be build, while the #5&6 will be switched to this Full Frigates program.
Aluguro still scheduled to be launch by early next month. As you can see on that PAL Submarine facility video you have put..the 401 Tjakra already in that facility..as after Aluguro launch, the facility will be used for Tjakra upgrade.
Looking on how PAL developed their LPD from South Korean design, it's more likely that the next batch of Submarine being developed by them will used 209/1400 design also, but with more modules being build by PAL.
Thank you for your explanation. Well, in that case the Iver Huitveldt Class is a good choice, the price per ship is indeed much lower than the FREMM or LCF classes. Besides the plan that they will be completely build in Surabaya, the sensor systems from the Iver Huitfeldt Klasse are also from Hollandse Signaalapparaten/Thales Nederland. So maybe this class is indeed the best option.
Helikopter TNI Onboard KRI Usman Harun di Laut Mediterania
Rabu, 22 Agustus 2018 – 21:46 WIB
jpnn.com, JAKARTA - Helikopter TNI Dauphin HR-3601 berhasil onboard pertama kalinya di geladak KRI Usman Harun-359 yang bertugas dalam Satuan Tugas (Satgas) Maritime Task Force (MTF) TNI Kontingen Garuda (Konga) XXVIII-J United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL) saat manuver di perairan Laut Mediterania.
Demikian disampaikan Kepala Pusat Penerangan (Kapuspen) TNI Mayjen TNI M. Sabrar Fadhilah saat berada di Mako Kodam I/Bukit Barisan, Senin (20/8/2018).
Kapuspen TNI mengatakan Helikopter TNI Dauphin HR-3601 diterbangkan menuju geladak heli dan berhasil onboard di KRI Usman Harun-359 pada pukul 11.30 waktu setempat dengan aman dan lancar.
Pada kesempatan tersebut, Mayjen Sabrar menyampaikan selama penugasan ke depan keberadaan helikopter TNI Dauphin HR-3601 guna mendukung pelaksanaan tugas Satgas MTF TNI Konga XXVIII-J/UNIFIL dengan Komandan Satgas Kolonel Laut (P) Alan Dahlan dan sehari-harinya menjabat sebagai Komandan KRI Usman Harun-359 yang telah bertugas dalam misi perdamaian PBB sejak bulan Juli 2017 lalu
From Indodefence 2018.
Damen bring their new follow on Sigma Frigate design, called Omega.
This design will also be used according to this as Dutch-Belgium M Class Frigate replacement.
This is the answer from Damen, as TNI-AL seems in track on changing their previous plan from 6 Sigma Based PKR Light Frigates as Van Speijk replacement to 4 PKR and 2 full size Frigates.
In previous Indodefence..Damen try to answer this with enlarge Sigma PKR design, however TNI-AL seems adamant that it's not what their looking for.
From previous post, I already post on Dannish OMT Iver based design, and South Korean DSME KDXII based design as leading candidate.
However Damen entry with this Omega design can also be serious contender..considering Damen and PAL relations in PKR project. Seems Damen rellied on this, try to sell this Omega moddular concept will meet what Indonesian Navy looking for..on the budget size they're going to prepared..plus their relationship with PAL.
This relationship with PAL will also why DSME still also marketing their KDXII..and why despite local forums and media in here betting for OMT Iver as the lead candidate...however I my self tend to look for DSME KDXII and now this Damen Omega..as more likely candidate.
In previous posts on Indonesian next batch of Submarine..it's been circulated despite the talk of Russian Kilo, 214, or Scorpene..PAL will go with DSME to continue the Changing 209 Tech Transfer project.
Seems it's going to be the road they are going to do. So, with this and the upgrade project on existing Tjakra (Nenggala already have the upgrade in DSME facility)..the plan for 8 submarine (2 upgrade original 209, 3 Changbogo 209/1400 1st batch..and this 3 next batch of Changbogo) going on schedule and within the plan to have PAL Submarine manufacturing capabilities.
Forget ASW, this particular helicopter doesn't even owned by the navy. It is in fact AS365 N3+ 'Dauphin' in SAR configuration owned by BASARNAS that got repainted with navy's paint scheme.
Noted that the 11 helicopters ordered by the navy were AS565 MBe 'Panther' version and not AS365 N3+ 'Dauphin'. Also, if i recall correctly from those 11 'Panther' only 2 of them that will receive full ASW equipment, leaving 9 others as utility variants (FFBNW/Fitted For But Not With ASW equipment). CMIIW.
Forget ASW, this particular helicopter doesn't even owned by the navy. It is in fact AS365 N3+ 'Dauphin' in SAR configuration owned by BASARNAS that got repainted with navy's paint scheme.
Noted that the 11 helicopters ordered by the navy were AS565 MBe 'Panther' version and not AS365 N3+ 'Dauphin'. Also, if i recall correctly from those 11 'Panther' only 2 of them that will receive full ASW equipment, leaving 9 others as utility variants (FFBNW/Fitted For But Not With ASW equipment). CMIIW.
Finding out the truth and reality about the equipment of our armed forces is often so disappointing and painful....it looks like we mainly use FFBNW equipement.
It is like the purchase policy is like: "Whatever we order, make sure it is quite toothless, so we always lagging behind potential adversaries, with a huge gap."
This is the statement in local media from Head of Mindef Defence Infrastructure..which as being predicted stated that any submarine procurement will have to come out from PAL facilities.
This's seems give signal to potential supplier, that any submarine project must involve local manufacturing with domestic shipyard.
Russian Kilo being mentioned here, since many local "connection" still try to get some projects from Russia. However since Russia so far shown less willingness to "tech transfer" with local industry..they are loosing defense projects in here.
Second batch of three 209/1400 as mentioned in previous post, is not surprising considering PAL already invested on Submarine facility with the help of South Korea DSME.
They are still looking for that 12 Submarine in the end, however 8 will be the number they are aim in 2024, with 6 209/1400 and 2 old but refurbished 209/1300.
Finding out the truth and reality about the equipment of our armed forces is often so disappointing and painful....it looks like we mainly use FFBNW equipement.
Well, their first priority is getting the platform. Additional sensors and armament can be refitted later on.
Look on how the Flankers, F-16 or even Apache getting their missiles after the platforms come.
The VL MICA VLS facility for PKR only being signed in this year Indodefence. Those PKR will get back to PAL facility to be refitted.
So, nothing changes on their procurement pattern there..they already done this practice for some time now..
Finding out the truth and reality about the equipment of our armed forces is often so disappointing and painful....it looks like we mainly use FFBNW equipement.
It is like the purchase policy is like: "Whatever we order, make sure it is quite toothless, so we always lagging behind potential adversaries, with a huge gap."
Well, their first priority is getting the platform. Additional sensors and armament can be refitted later on.
Look on how the Flankers, F-16 or even Apache getting their missiles after the platforms come.
The VL MICA VLS facility for PKR only being signed in this year Indodefence. Those PKR will get back to PAL facility to be refitted.
So, nothing changes on their procurement pattern there..they already done this practice for some time now..
In my opinion all these FFBNW bull**** needs to be stopped as soon as possible. Knowing the threat brewing up north, if nothing going to be done about it then the future looks bleak.
Sure they're prioritize getting hull on the water as soon as possible, but the way I see it from the last 5 years the majority of vessel being inducted in service were 20-60m patrol craft at best with only a handful of bigger hulled or decently equipped warship (not included amphibious operation ship ie. LST&LPDs). Even after 5 years of operation there is only several ships that finally manages to get their intended equipment and weaponry, most of them still operate with their original equipment they got at the time of their handover. The problem of 20-60m sized vessel is that they have a very limited open-sea operation (abysmal sea keeping, limited duration at sea, small displacement, pretty weak self defense & offensive weapons, etc). Those kinds of vessel would have struggled just being able to stay afloat at open-sea operation/conflict let alone being an effective weapon platform.
It looks to me that TNI-AL is too invested on littorial space aspects in building their capability. While it's not wrong, in my eyes such operation (littorial patrol & law enforcement at sea) should be done by white hulled vessel (KPLP & Bakamla) not by grey hulled vessel. As it's done now, such task would render navy's budget and man power dry while leaving their pursuit for replacing old ships or procuring newer better equipped vessel stayed as unreachable dreams.
For example, let's see Clurit-class Fast Attack Craft (FAC) first inducted to services by April 2011 with total number of ship produced under this class being 8 vessels. As far as I know, until this late 2018 (7 years later) there are only 2 ships namely KRI Clurit (641) & KRI Kujang (642) that could be properly classified as FAC (have proper gun, radar, CMS, and missile), while the rest of them stuck with manually aimed & fired 20mm gun as an offensive equipment with no search nor tracking radar whatsoever (navigation radar only), not to mention the main armament of an FAC, the missile itself. I am afraid they would never even going to get their intended equipment until they're decommissioned.
Moreover all those news about Bung Tomo-class still got no anti air missile several years after their induction; PKR commissioned now practically as an over sized gun-boats (no ASM, AAM, CIWS, Torps, ECM, ASW helicopter, etc); Still no news about replacements for large number of Parchim-class; also Fatahillah-class, Ki Hajar Dewantara-class, Mandau-class that lose their anti ships capability due to their obsolete ASM not to mention they all have nearly no anti air capability at all.
It looks to me that TNI-AL is too invested on littorial space aspects in building their capability. While it's not wrong, in my eyes such operation (littorial patrol & law enforcement at sea) should be done by white hulled vessel (KPLP & Bakamla) not by grey hulled vessel. As it's done now, such task would render navy's budget and man power dry while leaving their pursuit for replacing old ships or procuring newer better equipped vessel stayed as unreachable dreams.
There's two way to see this in my opinion:
The bright side way; there's not enough white hull boats/ships for litoral/Brown water yet. Thus the Navy still need to invest on those 20m-40m vessels. The Navy knows that those ships are only suitable for coastal patrols, that's why they being put affix of KAL and not KRI to shown them as coastal patrols boats.
The cynical way; the Navy simply did not want to relinquish their coastal patrols jurisdiction of, as coastal patrols is a "lucrative" piece of cake.
The solutions is back to "budget" and jurisdiction clarity. Bakamla now building 80m-110m OPV to augment their 20-50m boats. So there are committments on budget side to improve the availability of white hulls. However the jurisdiction of handling coastal security still intersect with the Navy ones.
The parliament and government need to clarify more on that..and until the jurisdiction of coastal area security is clear, the Navy will still argues on the need of those KAL.
To make the Navy focussing more on green water-blue water area as their responsibility, again back to budget. PAL already prepared naval OPV (as more military standard OPV's compared to Bakamla OPV's) as Parchim replacement. They said the contract for two of that OPV will be signed this year, however I still not see that in media.
Thus I see there are some movement to make coastal/brown water security more on Bakamla and green-blue water security more to the Navy. However as any development in Indonesian policy, the 'devil' still in details..as such any "cynical" thinking still there in the progress..
True, let's see just how many department have their hands on this "lucrative" cake, there are 13 government institution with an "interest" on sea, and about 7 of them operate patrol vessel & have law enforcement duty at sea namely:
Kementrian Pertahanan - TNI Angkatan Laut
(Indonesian Navy)
Kementrian Kelautan dan Perikanan - Dirjen Pengawasan Sumberdaya Kelautan dan Perikanan
(Directorate General of Marine and Fisheries Resources Surveillance)
Kementrian Keuangan - Dirjen Bea Cukai
(Directorate General of Customs and Excise)
Kementrian Kelautan dan Perikanan - Satuan Tugas Pemberantasan Penangkapan Ikan Secara Illegal 115/Satgas 115
(Illegal Fishing Eradication Task Force 115)
It is "lucrative" indeed. I don't know whether they can operate effectively moreover efficiently with all those overlapping task and jurisdiction.
Looks like this is how they going to divide their jurisdiction on theory, if that could even be called 'divided' at all in practice.
The solutions is back to "budget" and jurisdiction clarity. Bakamla now building 80m-110m OPV to augment their 20-50m boats. So there are committments on budget side to improve the availability of white hulls. However the jurisdiction of handling coastal security still intersect with the Navy ones. The parliament and government need to clarify more on that..and until the jurisdiction of coastal area security is clear, the Navy will still argues on the need of those KAL.
That's what I hope gonna happen after the forming of BAKORKAMLA and later turn into BAKAMLA, but til this day it's nothing more than adding another institution in the mix.
To make the Navy focussing more on green water-blue water area as their responsibility, again back to budget. PAL already prepared naval OPV (as more military standard OPV's compared to Bakamla OPV's) as Parchim replacement. They said the contract for two of that OPV will be signed this year, however I still not see that in media.
Sure but it's important to remember that Parchim-class consist of 14 ships that needs urgent replacement not just two, moreover the Parchim-class are part of 'Kapal Eskorta' or main striking forces of the navy, I don't know if an OPV is the correct replacements for them.
Not to mention Ahmad Yani-class, Fatahillah-class, Ki Hajar Dewantara-class, Mandau-class; which contribute to nearly 60% of navy's total combatant ships also needs to be replaced as soon as possible.
Also no, 4 PKR just cannot replace 6 Ahmad Yani-class on number or capability in my eyes, for me personally PKR as it designed now (Full spec) is the perfect replacements for Parchim-class, not Ahmad Yani-class.
Thus I see there are some movement to make coastal/brown water security more on Bakamla and green-blue water security more to the Navy. However as any development in Indonesian policy, the 'devil' still in details..as such any "cynical" thinking still there in the progress..
Also no, 4 PKR just cannot replace 6 Ahmad Yani-class on number or capability in my eyes, for me personally PKR as it designed now (Full spec) is the perfect replacements for Parchim-class, not Ahmad
No lah..we have to be realistic with real capabilities the present Van Speijk/Ahmad Yani Frigates. Full specs PKR Sigma will be more capable Frigates than those Van Speijk.
They have more capable sensors and electronics, their SAM (VL MICA) is more capable to the Van Speijk old Sea Cat or present Mistral. Despite called SHORAD, VL MICA is capable for 20km range and there's version of VL MICA being developed for 40km range.
Their ASW suit is also better, thus PKR is more than capable as Van Speijk replacement.
For Parchim..well the reality of their capabilities is now they are no more than big patrol boats..they have very limited ASW capabilities.. practically their Anti Surface is worse than their ASW. Thus despite being called as part of Escorta..they are practically doing patrol duties, no more no less.
Modern military specs OPV are modullar in design. They can be changed from OPV modules, to GP modules in short time. That's why Australia and Singapore change their patrol forces to OPV, and that's what PAL being prepared for Parchim replacement.
Bakamla (Indonesian Coast Guard) just launch 3 OPV of 80 m class. According to previous Bakamla statement in media, Bakamla plan to field 4 110m Large Patrol ships, 10 of this 80 m OPV and around 20 40-50m class of patrol boats.
So far they already launch 6 40-50m class patrol boats, this 3 80m OPV and 1 110m large patrol ships.
Asside from that new ships..they also got few 20m-30m coastal patrol boats ex Navy.
Bakamla (Indonesian Coast Guard) just launch 3 OPV of 80 m class. According to previous Bakamla statement in media, Bakamla plan to field 4 110m Large Patrol ships, 10 of this 80 m OPV and around 20 40-50m class of patrol boats.
So far they already launch 6 40-50m class patrol boats, this 3 80m OPV and 1 110m large patrol ships.
Asside from that new ships..they also got few 20m-30m coastal patrol boats ex Navy.
One of the leasons learned from Natuna's encountered with Chinese White Hulls, that larger fleet of constabulary white hulls forces needed for 'fisheries' enforcement.
Eventough they are quite large displacement..but with basics equipment on sensors and weapons (only 12.5mm so far being allocated). The Navy from what I heard still not want those white hulls being equipped with more than 20mm guns.
Still enough for 'fisheries' protection. Also they plan to have UAV from the heli decks..no budget so far for heli's.
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