Indonesia: 'green water navy'

[Ananda]

Discover Popular Videos | Facebook

Video is the place to enjoy videos and shows together. Watch the latest reels, discover original shows and catch up with your favorite creators.

fb.watch

From Keris FB, just to shown that if MinDef procured something different then DSME1400, then prepared to build supporting infrastructure on that type. This includes the training infrastructure.

The submarine simulation infrastructure that has been build so far, derived toward 209 and DSME 1400. Are different type that Frenchie offer will used similar system, command control and navigation modules ?

That's what has to be calculated when talking on NG offer for next batch of Submarine, asside on adjustment toward PAL owned Submarine facilities that's being build for DSME1400 or 209 types.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Discover Popular Videos | Facebook

Video is the place to enjoy videos and shows together. Watch the latest reels, discover original shows and catch up with your favorite creators.

fb.watch

From Keris FB, just to shown that if MinDef procured something different then DSME1400, then prepared to build supporting infrastructure on that type. This includes the training infrastructure.

The submarine simulation infrastructure that has been build so far, derived toward 209 and DSME 1400. Are different type that Frenchie offer will used similar system, command control and navigation modules ?

That's what has to be calculated when talking on NG offer for next batch of Submarine, asside on adjustment toward PAL owned Submarine facilities that's being build for DSME1400 or 209 types.

Sorry, i don't understand what you mean. This submarine training facility is made for the Type 209/1400, right?



Some other 'news '....
|"Meski baru dalam tahap keinginan, ada kabar bahwa TNI AL tertarik untuk mengadopsi rudal jelajah anti kapal NSM (Naval Strike Missile) besutan Kongsberg Defence & Aerospace, Norwegia. |
With other words, nothing happened.

Rudal Anti Kapal NSM (Naval Strike Missile), Bakal Dipasang di KCR Stealth Trimaran KRI Golok 688

Meski baru dalam tahap keinginan, ada kabar bahwa TNI AL tertarik untuk mengadopsi rudal jelajah anti kapal NSM (Naval Strike Missile) besutan Kongsberg Defence & Aerospace, Norwegia. Lebih lanjut pengadaan NSM secara spesifik ditujukan untuk melengkapi sistem senjata di Kapal Cepat Rudal (KCR)...

www.indomiliter.com

Btw, KRI Usman Harun 359 will get a MLU, and it was planned that it would be finished in end 2023. Is the modernisation already in progress?

 

[Ananda]

This submarine training facility is made for the Type 209/1400, right?

It means unless the type of Submarine that NG offer using similar system, sensors, navigation, and command control with existing 209 and DSME 1400 in TNI-AL inventory, then TNI-AL has to build another set of simulation training infrastructure.

Just to again remind that going with different type of Submarine will have to calculate everything that support them. Including the training modules infrastructure and adjustment in PAL submarine infrastructure. Something the Frenchie Salesman will not want to talk asside continue campaign on trashing DSME 1400.

This is something that SBY's first defense minister (Juwono Sudarsono) talk as reminder in media, when there's big pressure to go with Kilo Submarine. Remember the public that budget has to be allocating toward support and training. Not simply calculating on procurement budget. Looking toward Indonesian media and online forums, seems the thinking on only calculating procurement budget still going strong.

That's why the 'finance' people (both in Bapenas and MoF) try on calculating overall life time sustainment on financing packages now days. Something that the 'sales' lobby try to discount that, as that going to hindered chances for next side projects. I don't know whose going to prevailed though, the side projects mentality still strong within Sales Lobby.

With other words, nothing happened.

Kongsberg try working with other Sales Lobby to try breaking into MBDA grip on Indonesian missile market. Just another sales effort. That's why some times I don't want to talk much on TNI wish lists. In the end lobby in MinDef and Political circles that going to determine the packages (plus finance people agreement on financing term).

Add:

Top Prabowo! RI Resmi Borong 6 Jet Tempur Rafale Prancis

Kesepakatan itu merupakan satu dari empat kesepakatan yang diteken dalam pertemuan antara Prabowo Subianto dan Florence Parly di kantor pusat Kemhan RI.

www.cnbcindonesia.com

Well eventough it's still MoU but seems NG bag the Scorpene deals with PAL involvement. This talk on two, but the rumours before talking on 4 in overall packages. Let's see if this in the end will be 2+2 option.

 

[STURM]

So if the deal for Scorpene goes through, the TNI-AL will have 3 different types of sub? Unless the intention is to replace within the coming years the sole remaining Type 209.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

So if the deal for Scorpene goes through, the TNI-AL will have 3 different types of sub? Unless the intention is to replace within the coming years the sole remaining Type 209.

Well the Type 209/1400 Nagapasa class is just a newer version of the older Type 209/1300 Cakra 401, but i expect the Type 209/1300 will be kept in service for at least the next 15-20 years. Its not only just refurbished and modernized, but submarines are too important to just retire them if you have a small fleet.

Countries like Argentina and Taiwan for example have some old stuff from before 1980.

 

[Ananda]

Tjakra just finish overhaul. So I guess it will be available toward end of this decade or when the second Scorpene operational.

The overhaul being told by PAL give Tjakra similarities with DSME 1400. I suspect this means the system, navigations etc share with what TNI-AL DSME 1400. So basically just like Sandhi put, they are still one type.

Indonesia still put 8 as number to have for Submarine. That's why it is been rumour the actual offer from NG is for 4 Sub. I suspect 209-1300 and DSME 1400 will make one submarine sq, while the Scorpene will make another one.

 

[STURM]

Sandhi,

The Type 1400 is an improved version of the Type 209, both are fitted with different systems, requiring a separate shore traning/support infrastructure.

Indeed some subs older than Type 209s are still in service but my question about whether the sole Type 209 was to be retired within the coming years was not because of age issues per see but challenges in operating and supporting 3 different boat types.

 

[STURM]

Well if the refit involves fitting her with a same CMS, engine, sonar, etc, then it simplifies things.

 

[Ananda]

https://www.facebook.com/638220153015141/posts/1856985711138573

PT. PAL FB page talk more on what's in the MoU with NG. The media talk the MoU is for RnD co-op that will lead to development of Scorpene based submarine with PAL. PAL FB basically confirm that, however it talk on few instead a couple of Submarine as media put. This seems confirm the rumours and some in French defense blogs, that the actual offer is four Subs similar with NG program with Brazil.

There's also similarities with Brazilian program that NG offering. In sense NG offer the partner yards to do some customisation on the Scorpene based design. Brazilian Riachuelo is basically part of NG tech transfer (ToT) as part or join RnD on basic Scorpene design.

Seems this's what NG try to offer with PAL. Question will be how far the joint RnD will be. The Brazilian program run for at least 10 years before first sub launch. Off course some internal problem also happen in Brazil, however it's also because the RnD redesign job for Riachuelo class is quite extensive compared to Scorpene basic design.

It is rumours that NG will offer based from design that they already working for Riachuelo. In sense because both Brazil and Indonesia similarities environment to work with. So if Indonesia doesn't demand big adjustment on the based design, perhaps the program can work faster.

Still I'm not see the program will produce the first submarine for at least five years at the fastest or seven at most. In the mean time, TNI-AL and PAL still need to work out with DSME on how to solve problem with those three DSME 1400.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

https://www.facebook.com/638220153015141/posts/1856985711138573

PT. PAL FB page talk more on what's in the MoU with NG. The media talk the MoU is for RnD co-op that will lead to development of Scorpene based submarine with PAL. PAL FB basically confirm that, however it talk on few instead a couple of Submarine as media put. This seems confirm the rumours and some in French defense blogs, that the actual offer is four Subs similar with NG program with Brazil.

There's also similarities with Brazilian program that NG offering. In sense NG offer the partner yards to do some customisation on the Scorpene based design. Brazilian Riachuelo is basically part of NG tech transfer (ToT) as part or join RnD on basic Scorpene design.

Seems this's what NG try to offer with PAL. Question will be how far the joint RnD will be. The Brazilian program run for at least 10 years before first sub launch. Off course some internal problem also happen in Brazil, however it's also because the RnD redesign job for Riachuelo class is quite extensive compared to Scorpene basic design.

It is rumours that NG will offer based from design that they already working for Riachuelo. In sense because both Brazil and Indonesia similarities environment to work with. So if Indonesia doesn't demand big adjustment on the based design, perhaps the program can work faster.

Still I'm not see the program will produce the first submarine for at least five years at the fastest or seven at most. In the mean time, TNI-AL and PAL still need to work out with DSME on how to solve problem with those three DSME 1400.

I still wonder what the problems are from those Type 209/1400 Nagapasa Class boats (according to someone one Twitter "unproven unlicenced copies provided by an unexperienced company (DSME)" ).

But seriously, PAL has only knowledge and experience with overhaul and modernisation of old Type 209/1300 boats and the assembling of KRI Alugoro 405. Because of that i expect the Scorpène with AIP will be a quite standard AM-2000 design, there is no reason to follow the Riachuelo design, which is lengthened but without MESMA.

So i also hope that the construction and assembly of the boats (partly or completely done in Surabaya) will not take twelve years like in Brazil.

 

[Ananda]

still wonder what the problems are from those Type 209/1400 Nagapasa Class boats

You are not the only one. DSME still have work office with PAL in here. They're still working on problem that being call related to electrical battery performance. However other sales team already thrashing DSME product anyway.

also hope that the construction and assembly of the boats (partly or completely done in Surabaya) will not take twelve years like in Brazil.

It's all depends on how far this RnD will be done. I don't mind we copy Brazilian version, they're more in tune for longer range and tropical environment. The absent of AIP being replaced with better battery performances. Something like what Japanese approach.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

You are not the only one. DSME still have work office with PAL in here. They're still working on problem that being call related to electrical battery performance. However other sales team already thrashing DSME product anyway.



It's all depends on how far this RnD will be done. I don't mind we copy Brazilian version, they're more in tune for longer range and tropical environment. The absent of AIP being replaced with better battery performances. Something like what Japanese approach.

I didn't know that the Brazilian version of the Scorpène had batteries in stead of AIP.

The sources on the internet give all different and sometimes contradicting information.
According to Navalnews:

|"The Scorpène® design is adapted to fit each navy’s specific requirements. Thus, the Brazilian Scorpène® will be slightly longer to carry a larger crew, almost double the patrol range, and be able to cover greater distances."|

According to Naval-Technology :
|"Brazilian Scorpene has a surface displacement of 1,870t while its overall length is 72m. The Scorpene-class submarine has a diving depth of 300m and autonomy of 45 days."|

According to other sources the boats are just slightly longer and heavier but with the same or even less range and endurance. I can nowhere find information that the Riachuelo class has a longer range because it can have more fuel because of its longer length or because of its batteries like the Japanese submarines. Do you have a link for that?

In my opinion a design more similar to the standard AM-2000 shouldn't be a problem. It's unlikely that the Scorpènes of the Indian and Malaysian navies are not suitable for tropical environments.

 

[Ananda]

Brazilian submarine Riachuelo (S40) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Well bit hurry on this one, so using Wiki. In here the specification clearly not include AIP, unlike other Scorpene base SSK.

This also shown Riachuelo propulsion is diesel and battery based without AIP. I once read some speculations why Brazil choices with longer hull is to provide larger battery capacities. However not really found reliable source, why they are not choosing AIP.

Just some defense bloggers speculations that they are following Japanese approach for longer range with larger battery capacity.

For me why I support using Riachuello as pattern, because similarities that Indonesia have with Brazil. Both Tropicals and have large area in Tropics to patrol.

Add:

Naval Group and PT PAL ink MoU with Submarine Deal in Sight - Naval News

French shipbuilder Naval Group and Indonesia state-owned shipbuilder PT PAL today signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) to increase their cooperation in the submarine domain.

www.navalnews.com

Naval News seems got confirmation from NG source that two of Scorpene base submarine collaboration with PAL, will be build within PAL facilities. So it is more indication that the co-op will be similar in nature with what NG done in Brazil.

So far all still speculation on what type of Scorpene based Sub will be. Naval News also speculated based on PAL request on information (RFI) for ship lift modules that seems match for Riachuelo dimension.

Still that build in Partner facilities (from begining) that seems give NG edge over TKMS or DSME on their Tech Transfer scheme.

 

[Ananda]

deleted double posted.

 

[Ananda]

Just add this a year old video. Seems whatever Scorpene that NG offer to developed will be based on This Scorpene 2000 base design. It will be tailor build to whatever customer adjustment and being build (if they want) with Industrial participation from Customer Industry.

This is seems NG strategy for export.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

KRI Teluk Palu 523 was launched in June 2019.
And now after almost three years the outfitting is almost finished and the crew of the new ship is ready to take care of KRI Teluk Palu. I don't think the ship will be commissioned soon, because there are no any reports or videos on internet about the sea trials.

Menko Airlangga tinjau KRI Teluk Palu, dukung industri perkapalan

Menteri Koordinator (Menko) Perekonomian Airlangga Hartarto meninjau langsung KRI Teluk Palu produksi PT Daya Radar Utama (DRU) Shipyard guna mendukung pelaku ...

m.antaranews.com

Airlangga Tinjau KRI Teluk Palu-523 di Galangan Kapal Lampung |Republika Online

m.republika.co.id

 

[Ananda]

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=316459840524059&id=100064801353844

Indonesian MinDef FB shown public information on Scorpene. Perhaps just like what they done with Rafale, this is can also be early Indication on what Scorpene based they are going to develop. Basically it's a basic Scorpene 2000 configuration that NG already put online.

Or it is part of Public Campaign, they are some fringe Political Factions that try to take advantage on early Political attack on Prabowo. Politics after all.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=316459840524059&id=100064801353844

Indonesian MinDef FB shown public information on Scorpene. Perhaps just like what they done with Rafale, this is can also be early Indication on what Scorpene based they are going to develop. Basically it's a basic Scorpene 2000 configuration that NG already put online.

Or it is part of Public Campaign, they are some fringe Political Factions that try to take advantage on early Political attack on Prabowo. Politics after all.

This is actually what i already expected, it will be quite similar with the AM-2000 design, with MESMA, so longer than the CM-2000 without AIP, and not a clone of the Brazilian version.

 

[Ananda]

This is not a new design rendering from PT. Lundin (North Sea Boats).




Just when I look at those design, for me it is more make sense then the iteration of the design as Naval FMC (as KRI Golok as first prototype). Using them for coast guard (first picture) or SAR vessels, at least they can reduce the speed from 30 kt to 20-24 kt and put emphasis on range and duration.

Perhaps I'm bias in here, as on present environment, I just don't see TNI-AL benefits to keep building FMC or even smaller patrol boats (except for near base patrol).

 

[Ananda]

Laut China Selatan Rawan, Panglima TNI dan KSAL Sepakat Koarmada I Dipindah ke Riau

Panglima TNI Jenderal TNI Andika Perkasa menerima kunjungan Kepala Staf Angkatan Laut (KSAL) Laksamana TNI Yudo Margono beberapa waktu lalu di Mabes TNI Cilangkap,...

nasional.sindonews.com

Forget to post it here. TNI-AL chief inform his bos TNI chief on the preparation to move 1st Fleet from Jakarta to Riau Islands Province. Not only this province control Indonesian sea line to Malaca Strait, but also gate way to SCS.

In the article clearly the Navy Chief put development in SCS is the reason to move 1st fleet from Jakarta to Riau Islands Province.