Indonesia: 'green water navy'

[Sandhi Yudha]

TNI AL akan terima hibah tiga kapal korvet dari Korsel

Tentara Nasional Indonesia (TNI) Angkatan Laut akan menerima hibah tiga kapal perang milik Korea Selatan jenis korvet. "Saya berterima kasih ...

m.antaranews.com

It's been put by Indonesian Media that ROKN offer 3 second hand corvettes to Indonesia. Some Indonesian defense enthusiats thinking this must be related to ROK effort to revive batch 2 DSME 1400.

It could be right, but I also gather some informal information that ROK also try to compete with Japanese on 30FFM. So far present administration MinDef already commited with Babcock Arrow140 and FREMM. However there's rumour they are looking also for something lighter design for more quantity that can be build by local shipyards (outside PAL).

Japan still try lobby for somekind derivative from their 30FFM. Thus it's probable ROK try to offer their latest iteration on FFG III.

Samkang M&T to Build FFX Ulsan-class Batch III Frigate for ROK Navy - Naval News

A mid-sized Korean shipbuilder called Samkang M&T announced on January 4th that it won a contract for the construction of a 3,500 tons FFX Batch III frigate. The Defense Acquisition Program Administration (DAPA) contract is worth 33.5 billion won (about 27.8 million US dollars).

www.navalnews.com

ROK already offering the inventory of Pohang corvettes to Philipine and Vietnam. Perhaps it's part of their diplomacy to enhance SEA nation patroling capabilities in SCS. However I do suspect they offering Pohang as stop gap before move to FFG III design that being build as Pohang replacement anyway.

The Pohang class corvettes still available for export do not have the HSA-systems on board, like the first batches.
So almost all sensors and CMS-components on board are not installed in TNI-AL's existing fleet and because of that they are not yet used to operate and maintain them. The Pohangs do also have the LM2500 gasturbines installed, which make them more expensive to operate and maintain compared to the other vessels in our fleet, with exception of the Mandau class fast missile boats.

 

[Ananda]

almost all sensors and CMS-components on board are not installed in TNI-AL's existing fleet and because of that they are not yet used to operate and maintain them.

That's why I suspect any offer for their Pohang is part or pleriminary offering for their FFG III (FFX) line. Something to create familiarity with their system. Japan also being rumours offering stop gap from their own lines if TNI-AL move for 30FFM. TNI-AL is very Euro centric on their system anyway. Turkey seems potentially getting some traction as their system basically Euro one with more friendlier price tag.

As for Turbine Gas, if they go with FREMM, then they have to prepare on more Turbine Gas supporting infrastructure. That's the question more on TNI-AL Investment to support.

However I'm still waiting on the final specs that either Japanese or ROK going to offer. ROK already proven can modify their design for CODAD, just like what they do with Philippines order. It's all depends back to budget and infrastructure support.

Add:
I also interested with the information on that Article saying ROKN will send team to help TNI-AL operation and maintenance of those DSME 1400. Now the French Sakesman often tweet and talk on his you tube channel on ROK crappy submarine. Now let's see if those submarine really crappy as that Frenchie Salesman try to picture, or simply TNI-AL not familar enough with 'quirks' on operating ROK build Subs.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Just uploaded by PAL, a tour through the hospital part of the new hospital ship. Its quite complete, but ive the feeling its not an improvement compared to KRI Semarang 594, the LPD which is modified into a temporarily hospital ship. Unlike the other LPDs in its class, it does not have a well deck and other facilities to embark, transport, and land troops and equipment for amphibious warfare missions, but still it can only handle 40 patients.

You can skip the first 1:30 of this video.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

The four C-Flex Combat Management Systems have passed the Factory Acceptance Test and with the acceptance tests approved, on-site installation into the four KCR-60 patrolboats begins in 2022.

Terma is contracted to deliver: the C-Flex combat management system, the C-Guard decoy launching system, the C-Fire fire control system, and SCANTER 4603 air & surface surveillance radar for four KCR-60 vessels, retrofitted in #3 and #4, and installed in the new 5th and 6th vessels of the KCR-60 class of patrolboats.

Indonesian Navy approves Terma CMS for KCR-60 FACs - Naval News

The Indonesian Navy approves the factory acceptance tests of four new CMS for four fast attack crafts, “KCR-60”.

www.navalnews.com

 

[Ananda]

South Korea to transfer ex-ROKN Corvette to Indonesia - Naval News

In a statement released on January 20, Admiral Yudo Margono, the Chief of Staff of the Indonesian Navy (TNI AL), announced that the Republic of Korea Navy (ROKN) will transfer a retired corvette to Indonesia.

www.navalnews.com

Further confirmation on the potential transfer of ex ROKN Corvettes as sweetener for further deal on Submarine or Surface ships for Korean Shipyard. Despite the article that shown potential ROK deals got competition from Naval Group or Fincantieri, I do suspect NG and Fincantieri position are already further ahead on this game.

Unless ROK can provide better solution on the problem with DSME 1400 (whatever it is not really been told publicly), including better deal with PAL, bit doubtful they will got further place on Indonesian MinDef naval competition.

Seems there's factions in TNI and Political circles around this administration, that talking 'disatisfaction' with level of Industrial Defense co-op with ROK. This based on DSME submarine progress and even KAI one for KFX/IFX/KF-21.

So, seems ROK try to further lobby to regain their place as preferred defense partner that they got from previous administration. This administration seems try to replace them with Frenchie.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

South Korea to transfer ex-ROKN Corvette to Indonesia - Naval News

In a statement released on January 20, Admiral Yudo Margono, the Chief of Staff of the Indonesian Navy (TNI AL), announced that the Republic of Korea Navy (ROKN) will transfer a retired corvette to Indonesia.

www.navalnews.com

Further confirmation on the potential transfer of ex ROKN Corvettes as sweetener for further deal on Submarine or Surface ships for Korean Shipyard. Despite the article that shown potential ROK deals got competition from Naval Group or Fincantieri, I do suspect NG and Fincantieri position are already further ahead on this game.

Unless ROK can provide better solution on the problem with DSME 1400 (whatever it is not really been told publicly), including better deal with PAL, bit doubtful they will got further place on Indonesian MinDef naval competition.

Seems there's factions in TNI and Political circles around this administration, that talking 'disatisfaction' with level of Industrial Defense co-op with ROK. This based on DSME submarine progress and even KAI one for KFX/IFX/KF-21.

So, seems ROK try to further lobby to regain their place as preferred defense partner that they got from previous administration. This administration seems try to replace them with Frenchie.

|"The technicians will be accompanied by Kang Eun-ho, the head of the Defense Acquisition Program Administration (DAPA), who will attempt to come to a settlement on a USD 0.97 billion deal for three additional Jang Bogo-class submarines."|

Since when had the deal a value of $970.000.000? It was always something around $1,02 billion.

|"A potential breakthrough next week would do much to consolidate bilateral ties. "|

With this administration ill not expect too much.


Like most other defence equipment acquisitions, many details stay unclear. The gift of one or three corvettes for example, its actually for sure the Pohang class. But will those second hand corvettes be refurbished first, will they get a (light) modernization or additional airconditioning systems, and will the original propulsion system kept or replaced by diesel engines?

And what are those technical problems with the three Improved Chang-Bogo/Nagapasa class boats?
Or are those problems actually not that big but blown up in order to get rid of the second contract, because its an "SBY-project"?

 

[Meriv90]

Whats in Indonesia shopping list other than the Frigates (both Italian and Danish ones)?

 

[Ananda]

The wish list for the Navy with the work on or Partner with Foreign yards is practically :

1. MCMV with German Shipyard,
2. Frigates with Babcock (as design partner for locally build) and Fincantieri (potentially majority build in Italia).
3. Submarine (so far build locally or with modules joint build with foreign Partner yards).

Others like support vessels (LPD,LST,Tankers), and Patrol (OPV, and FMB) done by local Shipyards.

The question at this moment more on finalisation on financing packages deal with Fincantieri, and decision on Submarine type that will be choose as replacement for DSME 1400 batch 2.

ROK seems try to lobby for DSME continue involvement on Submarine, and potential supplying additional Frigates after Babcock and Fincantieri ones.

The last part is the questionable ones, as I don't see enough money trails yet for financing more Frigates after Babcock and Fincantieri deals at least on present administration term. However seems Japanese try to lobby by providing more financing on that. That's seems what ROK as in my previous post, want to compete.

are those problems actually not that big but blown up in order to get rid of the second contract, because its an "SBY-project"?

Well yes. Politics always play big role on Indonesia as we know it. This's why I'm very sceptical on continuation of any administration long term project that stretch beyond their own term. New administration will try to rework the deal to shown their own 'flavour'.

That's what happens with PKR and that's seems going to happen with Submarine, and we see similar ambiguity on KFX. Whatever the long term project originated from previous administration, the new one will always try to rebuild it. This especially true if the previous administration is their Political rival. That's happened in many countries, but especially matter in Indonesia.

ROK going to pay the price on long term defense project, as they are being considered as 'SBY administration prefer defense partner' thus not necessarily this administration preferred ones.

 

[Ananda]

sorry wrong thread

 

[Ananda]

Video for Koarmada 2 channel (2nd Fleet). This video indicating that any TNI-AL vessels that meet with Foreign Naval vessel within Indonesian waters need to conduct active communication and if possible doing minimal passing exercise with them.

Shown TNI-AL wants for more active roles during their patrolling duties.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Two more Teluk Semangka LST ships to be retired: KRI Teluk Penyu 513 and KRI Teluk Mandar 514, both built in South-Korea in 1980.

So from which i understand only three are left over from this class of 100 meter long LSTs: 515, 516 and 517. With 7 Teluk Bintuni ships already active and 2 more almost finished, the 40 year old Teluk Semangka class can be retired one by one.

Menhan: Dua KRI dilelang karena tak layak pakai

Menteri Pertahanan Prabowo Subianto menyebutkan dua kapal perang (KRI) milik TNI Angkatan Laut, yakni KRI Teluk Mandar 514 dan KRI Teluk Penyu 513 akan ...

m.antaranews.com

 

[Ananda]

Prabowo: TNI AL Bakal Punya 50 Kapal Perang, Terkuat di Asia Tenggara

Prabowo mengklaim, Presiden Joko Widodo juga telah menyetujui dan mendukung alokasi anggaran untuk militer yang terbesar dalam sejarah Indonesia.

nasional.tempo.co

This might be related to your post @Sandhi Yudha . This talk of 50 ships in my taking, is not entirely new ones. However I suspect it's more that the fleet plan to maintain at least 50 operational ready ships at all times.

Thus it will be combination of new and refurbished ships. The clues (which related to your post), when he talk to discard those ships that already too damaged (perhaps the term not economical to maintain anymore).

On LST is quite interesting that some East German Frosch still gone to docks for maintenance (previous news on other media), while seems the South Korean Tacoma LST being phased out. Considering those both LST type actually coming from similar time era, I thought those Tacoma's are in better condition then those Frosch. Regardless though, in the end seems just matter of time before those Frosch will follow the Tacoma on retirement, since Prabowo's talk on 22 overall amphibious assets need to be replaced.

Off course being Politicians he try bit boasting that by 50 ready fleet, TNI-AL will be strongest in SEA region. Well TNI-AL always has the largest fleet in SEA region, but strongest depends on how capable and operational ready the fleet going to be. At least by aiming to have 50 operational ready ships at all times (at least that what I presume what he really means), it also means enough operational budget being prepared. Cause that's what always the problem with TNI (of all three branches), the operational budget to keep the assets readiness.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Yes it is remarkable that 11 from the 14 received slightly older Project 108/109 are still in operation, even when two are lost in accidents.

Indonesian Navy's Frosch I-class landing craft sinks after hull breach

An Indonesian Navy (Tentara Nasional Indonesia – Angkatan Laut: TNI-AL) Frosch I (Type 108)-class amphibious landing craft has sunk after experiencing a hull breach.

www.janes.com

According to the Jane's article below, Officials from the Indonesian Navy and the Ministry of Defence have held another meeting with German shipbuilder ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS) to discuss the HDW Class 209/1400mod submarine for TNI-AL's underwater warfare requirements.

But it seems to be just a discussion, nothing more.

Indonesia, TKMS discuss HDW Class 209, 214 submarines for navy's requirements

Officials from the Indonesian Navy and the Ministry of Defence have held another meeting with German shipbuilder ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS).

www.janes.com

 

[Ananda]

Officials from the Indonesian Navy and the Ministry of Defence have held another meeting with German shipbuilder ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS) to discuss the HDW Class 209/1400mod submarine for TNI-AL's underwater warfare requirements.

This's what I put in my old post before. If they (the administration) want to build submarine in PAL, is current facilities need further Investment to work other then DSME 209 1400 ? Those fanboys in local forums seems not calculating that when talking building Scorpene or 214 in PAL facilities.

Is PAL engineers already have enough learning curve toward DSME 1400 ? I'm sure they are not reach sufficient independent learning curve yet for submarine manufacturing. So the logical way if MinDef want to switch manufacturing Partner for Submarine project, is to work with HDW 1400 that shares similarities.

The Frenchie salesman talking nonsense that HDW by offering 209NG is clear don't want to offer 214 to Indonesia. Thus they want only to offer something inferior compared to NG offering.

Well is that Frenchie salesman willing to admit how much additional Investment in PAL current facilities that need to be add if PAL working with NG design ?

What if HDW offer to finish PAL learning curve with Manufacturing 3 HDW 209 1400 in PAL, while add 2 214 build in HDW? With similar or even slightly less cost that NG offer (rumours) 4 modified Scorpene (as similar with Brazilian deals) ?

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Its not often that the Indonesian Coastguard practice with the Japanese Coastguard in Indonesian waters. Can this be the first time?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1489238361361436675

 

[kato]

Its not often that the Indonesian Coastguard practice with the Japanese Coastguard in Indonesian waters. Can this be the first time?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1489238361361436675

The Japanese Coastguard has been running anti-piracy exercises in South Asian countries for two decades, generally using the relatively large PLH vessels (like in the Tweet) and their Dassault 900 patrol aircraft. Indonesia was involved in at least a dozen of those.

First specific deployment in Indonesian waters may have been PLH-21 Mizuho visiting Jakarta in 2007 before such exercises.

 

[Ananda]

Seems that #323 OPV still has not equipped with main gun. Couple weeks ago, some guys already put video shown some of BAKAMLA OPV already equip with Turkish SMASH 30mm gun.

So far Prabowo only give clearance for Bakamla (as non military/maritime constabulary agency) to equip only up to 30mm gun.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

The Japanese Coastguard has been running anti-piracy exercises in South Asian countries for two decades, generally using the relatively large PLH vessels (like in the Tweet) and their Dassault 900 patrol aircraft. Indonesia was involved in at least a dozen of those.

First specific deployment in Indonesian waters may have been PLH-21 Mizuho visiting Jakarta in 2007 before such exercises.

Thank you.

Seems that #323 OPV still has not equipped with main gun. Couple weeks ago, some guys already put video shown some of BAKAMLA OPV already equip with Turkish SMASH 30mm gun.

So far Prabowo only give clearance for Bakamla (as non military/maritime constabulary agency) to equip only up to 30mm gun.

Thank you for sharing. This is not only the first time that i see proof of the installation of the Aselsan SMASH 30 mm on a BAKAMLA vessel, but i didn't even know they were already installed on the 110 m 301 and 80 m 321 and 322. I thought it were just plans for somewhere in the future.

 

[Ananda]

thought it were just plans for somewhere in the future.

Last year BAKAMLA chief after got approval for 30mm gun from Prabowo, already talk in media to equip all 10 of its vessels with that kind of gun.

10 Kapal Bakamla RI akan Dilengkapi Senjata Kaliber 30 Mm - Tribunnews.com

Aan berharap dengan dilengkapinya kapal Bakamla RI dengan senjata nantinya seluruh personel Bakamla yang bertugas di kapal bisa lebih percaya diri.

www.tribunnews.com

Right now Bakamla only have 10 vessels with 6 of 48m patrol class, 3 of 80m OPV and 1 of 110m large OPV. All this coming from previous administration plan.

To be fair there's plan from present administration to double BAKAMLA fleet. However it's also means doubling the manpower and support infrastructure. Seems so far the plan is to get some manpower transfer from Navy and sharing support infrastructure with the Navy.

It's all back on what BAKAMLA/Coast Guard segregation of duties, function and jurisdiction with Navy and all other maritime agencies.

 

[Ananda]

https://www.facebook.com/638220153015141/posts/1856273581209786

PAL FB page shown visit from NG delegation to PAL Submarine facilities. Latest rumours still put NG on tight competition with TKMS for the deal of next batch of Indonesian submarine. This after DSME more and more being shown losing favour to continue 2nd Batch DMSE 1400.

There's problem with the first batch of DSME 1400, the MinDef and Navy already shown snippets problem in battery and electronics current distribution and charging. However this being enlarge by other sales agents like the Twitter Guy and even some in parliament.

This doesn't mean the problem with Indonesian DSME 1400 can't be solve, but clearly smeared campaign toward DSME already been conducting quite rigorous in Indonesian media.

Let's see whose sales agent that going to get bonus this time around for Submarine project. So far the rumours on NG packages offer of four Subs build in similar deal like what Brazilian got, seems getting more traction.