Indian Navy Discussions and Updates

[swerve]

Ministry of defeat -

I recall the Indian MoD changing the selection criteria for a requirement in a way which excluded one of the only two candidates, & then complaining when the makers of the excluded (& by far the cheapest) one withdrew their bid (note that continuing their bid would have cost them money). That ended, after at least 13 years & a lot of money being spent, with the whole thing being cancelled & India wondering how to fill a huge hole in capabilities. In that case, India went for something new & untried & rejected the proven option.

That wasn't the first time they'd complained about an offer being withdrawn. Many years ago, India was negotiating to buy more Mirage 2000s, & Dassault was offering to transfer all production to India, & then India re-opened the competition. The Mirage 2000 production line was closing, & it would have been expensive to keep it open waiting for an order which might never come. Dassault dropped out - & the Indian MoD complained. Doh!

Consider the C-17. India dithered for ages over buying more, & eventually submitted a request for 3, IIRC - but the line had closed & there was only one white tail left. Boeing was happy to sell it to India, but the Indian MoD wanted 3, & wouldn't change their request. So Boeing sold the last one, & the Indians complained about it not being reserved for them.

Sea Harrier? The UK had 8 for sale, IIRC, without radars. The Indian MoD demanded the ex-RN Sea Harriers be delivered with radars & AMRAAM. The UK couldn't sell the AMRAAMs without US permission. India had signed a contract to fit Elta radars to its older Sea Harriers, & buy Derby AAMs. Elta offered to extend the contract to cover the ex-RN SHs. The Indian MoD wasn't interested. It eventually bought some of the ex-RN Sea Harriers to break down for spares.

Whenever I feel despair over British military procurement fuck-ups (& there are many of them) I look at India & think "at least that's not us".

 

[John Fedup]

Ministry of defeat -

I recall the Indian MoD changing the selection criteria for a requirement in a way which excluded one of the only two candidates, & then complaining when the makers of the excluded (& by far the cheapest) one withdrew their bid (note that continuing thei bid would have cost them money). That ended, after at least 13 years & a lot of money being spent, with the whole thing being cancelled & India wondering how to fill a huge hole in capabilities. In that case, India went for something new & untried & rejected the proven option.

That wasn't the first time they'd complained about an offer being withdrawn. Many years ago, India was negotiating to buy more Mirage 2000s, & Dassault was offering to transfer all production to India, & then India re-opened the competition. The Mirage 2000 production line was closing, & it would have been expensive to keep it open waiting for an order which might never come. Dassault dropped out - & the Indian MoD complained. Doh!

Consider the C-17. India dithered for ages over buying more, & eventually submitted a request for 3, IIRC - but the line had closed & there was only one white tail left. Boeing was happy to sell it to India, but the Indian MoD wanted 3, & wouldn't change their request. So Boeing sold the last one, & the Indians complained about it not being reserved for them.

Sea Harrier? The UK had 8 for sale, IIRC, without radars. The Indian MoD demanded the ex-RN Sea Harriers be delivered with radars & AMRAAM. The UK couldn't sell the AMRAAMs without US permission. India had signed a contract to fit Elta radars to its older Sea Harriers, & buy Derby AAMs. Elta offered to extend the contract to cover the ex-RN SHs. The Indian MoD wasn't interested. It eventually bought some of the ex-RN Sea Harriers to break down for spares.

Whenever I feel despair over British military procurement fuck-ups (& there are many of them) I look at India & think "at least that's not us".

From a Canadian perspective I really can’t say how Canada’s acquisition record compares to India. I suspect it is marginally better but on certain days we can really screw up just as well.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Domestic alternative for AS.15 TT, Sea Skua or Sea Venom.
There are not so many types of light/small anti-ship missiles on the market, so if the performance is good enough and with an attractive price tag, then it has enough export potential.

DRDO and Indian Navy Test-Fire New NASM-SR Missile - Naval News

India test-fired a new helicopter-launched anti-ship missile today. The missile is known as "Naval Anti-Ship Missile-Short Range" or NASM-SR.

www.navalnews.com

 

[Ananda]

Watch: Rajnath Singh launches two indigenous Indian Navy warships in Mumbai

Union Defence Minister Rajnath Singh on May 17 launched two indigenously built warships ‘INS Surat’ and ‘INS Udaygiri’ at the Mazagon Docks in Mumbai. This is the first time that the two indigenously built warships have been launched concurrently. (ANI)

economictimes.indiatimes.com

Indian Defense Minister launch two Project 17A indigenous frigate at Mazagon Docks in Mumbai.

Rajnath Singh launches 2 indigenously built warships 'Surat' and 'Udaygiri'

'Udaygiri', named after a mountain range in Andhra Pradesh, is the third ship of Project 17A Frigates. It is a follow on of the P17 Frigates (Shivalik Class) with improved stealth features, advanced weapons and sensors and platform management systems, the Navy said.

m.economictimes.com

In one hand, India have trouble on catching up their plan on Air Force especially fighter development schedulle. However so far they manage to speed up recent naval building.

 

[John Fedup]

Boeing has successfully completed a Superhornet demo for the Indian navy. I assume Dassault is the other contender.

F/A-18 Super Hornet Completes Operational Demo in India - Naval News

Boeing's F/A-18 Super Hornet successfully completed operational demonstration tests at Indian Naval Station Hansa in Goa, India, reinforcing the Super Hornet's ability to effectively and safety operate off Indian Navy carriers.

www.navalnews.com

 

[Ananda]

Another video on Indian Vikrant preparing for operational stage. The video shown Mig-29K already fitting in the operational stage in the carrier. The video shown more clearly the size of the elevator, which some analysts even Indian ones put as limitations factor for this Carrier.

Just wandering, with the amount of delay this Carrier already has, why not the take the time to enlarge the elevator. This carrier still a big achievement for Indian Navy and Naval Industry. However despite all the nationalism talks from Indian media and online forums, doesn't hide the fact, they could do better designing some aspects of this carrier.

 

[seaspear]

I'm not sure if this is feasible for the S/H taking off the ramps on the Indian carrier but it has been used for aerial refuelling, that might be interesting if it was able to extend the range of the MIG-29K fighters

 

[Ananda]

this is feasible for the S/H taking off the ramps on the Indian carrier

Boeing already demonstrated Shornet capabilities in Indian Navy land based carrier training center In Goa. As those facility build mimicking Indian STOBAR on the existing carriers, thus Boeing already shown Shornet fitting on Indian Carriers.

Indian media also talk on Rafale already doing similar test in Goa, however I haven't found Video to confirm it. Just claim from Indian media.

Both Rafale and Shornet with those test in Goa shown flexibilities for STOBAR and CATOBAR. Something that Mig 29K has not shown (as only certified for STOBAR). Personally, I just wait for Indian test for both Rafale and SHornet on this carrier somewhat smaller elevator.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

I'm not sure if this is feasible for the S/H taking off the ramps on the Indian carrier but it has been used for aerial refuelling, that might be interesting if it was able to extend the range of the MIG-29K fighters

I really thought you was talking about the Sea Harrier, only later when i was reading the post below yours i realized you mean Super Hornet :-D

But yes, let's see how this develops, the development of the new twin-engine carrier based fighter variant of the HAL Tejas will take at least another decade.

 

[John Fedup]

I really thought you was talking about the Sea Harrier, only later when i was reading the post below yours i realized you mean Super Horner :-D

But yes, let's see how this develops, the development of the new twin-engine carrier based fighter variant of the HAL Tejas will take at least another decade.

Logically, proven jets like the SH and Rafael are the choices for the Indian navy and perhaps Rafael should be the preferred choice as it is service with the Indian AF. Indian military procurement and logically, probably two words that shouldn’t appear in the same sentence.

 

[swerve]

Please . . . .

Rafale is a French word. It means something like "gust", as in wind, in keeping with the Dassault tradition of naming aircraft.

Rafael is a personal name of Hebrew origin, & the name of an Israeli defence company.

They are different in both spelling & pronunciation. It's like saying a tank is called a Painter when you mean Panther.

Sorry if this is a bit sharp, but I get tired of seeing it.

 

[John Fedup]

Yep, which is why one should proof read what Apple decides to substitute for what one types.:..which I didn’t.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Please . . . .

Rafale is a French word. It means something like "gust", as in wind, in keeping with the Dassault tradition of naming aircraft.

Rafael is a personal name of Hebrew origin, & the name of an Israeli defence company.

They are different in both spelling & pronunciation. It's like saying a tank is called a Painter when you mean Panther.

Sorry if this is a bit sharp, but I get tired of seeing it.

Yes, you see this all the time at Facebook and Twitter, but i already had the feeling that in John's case it was caused by autocorrection.

 

[swerve]

Yep, which is why one should proof read what Apple decides to substitute for what one types.:..which I didn’t.

Oops! Sorry for pulling you up on it. Bloody auto "correct".

 

[John Fedup]

Oops! Sorry for pulling you up on it. Bloody auto "correct".

Recently I have noticed auto correct seems to be be getting worse…might be posting with my Surface Pro in the future.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Recently I have noticed auto correct seems to be be getting worse…might be posting with my Surface Pro in the future.

They call that "Artificial Intelligence "....
But don't worry, Apple plan to move the production of I-Phones from china to India.

 

[Volkodav]

They call that "Artificial Intelligence "....
But don't worry, Apple plan to move the production of I-Phones from china to India.

India, Vietnam and Mexico should all do quite well in coming years. Not a deliberate action against China, rather a factor of cost, reliability and trust. If other countries deliver the same or similar quality, at lower cost, without political strings, then the decision is economic, not political.

 

[John Fedup]

India, Vietnam and Mexico should all do quite well in coming years. Not a deliberate action against China, rather a factor of cost, reliability and trust. If other countries deliver the same or similar quality, at lower cost, without political strings, then the decision is economic, not political.

Absolutely, but there is an anti- CCP factor. In Mexico’s case geography is an advantage although there is the Cartel problem, an increasing negative that may open the door to countries south of Mexico. In any event Latin and South America offer a huge labour pool to counter the Chinese manufacturing dynamo if it is utilized.

 

[Ananda]

In any event Latin and South America offer a huge labour pool to counter the Chinese manufacturing dynamo if it is utilized.

It is mistaken (mostly by Western media pundits) that saying China rise mostly due to large 'cheap' labour pool. What China has developed is a complete production ecosystem chain. From simple ruber isolators, bolts, toward complete electronics components, all source from China. Thus if you build your final assembly facilities in China (as many OEM did), you can get most of your components from within China. Thats huge cost saving efficiency. Something that other big pool labour countries like India, Vietnam, Indonesia, or Mexico struggle to achieve even half of what China already build.

This is means huge investments on every aspects of production from raw materials foundries, and basic supporting infrastructure of power and transportation. Plus better bureacratics management (which many other emerging economies still strugling to do that). The human capitals in China also practically more complete from pool of unskilled, semi skilled, skilled and highly skilled (this means top end engineers).

Basically China did everything that US does in WW2, complete production value chains. Just give them basic design and blue prints, and they can build it including copied and modified them.

Non Chinese sources especially in West sneer on Chinese production as copy cat industry. However able to copy cat something is also big effort. If you give blue prints to other emerging market producers in India, Vietnam, Indonesia, Malaysia or Mexico, even giving permision to copy, they will be struggling to create complete copy (by themselves) just like the Chinese already done.

Sorry Mod as this is bit out of topic for this thread, but just to add that even building copy cat industry on the scale as Chinese already did since one to two decades ago was and is a big achievement. Chinese now already evolving from copy someone else design to create their own design. Something that no other large labour pool nations so far able to do that, on Chinese scales. This including big emerging ones like India, Indonesia, Vietnam or Mexico.

This is why many OEM can not completely leave or relocate everything from China. Even they move their facilities to outside China (mostly to other Asian market), they are mostly relocating their final assembly line. They are relocating to South East or South Asia because the supporting components still sources mostly from China.

 

[John Fedup]

It is mistaken (mostly by Western media pundits) that saying China rise mostly due to large 'cheap' labour pool. What China has developed is a complete production ecosystem chain. From simple ruber isolators, bolts, toward complete electronics components, all source from China. Thus if you build your final assembly facilities in China (as many OEM did), you can get most of your components from within China. Thats huge cost saving efficiency. Something that other big pool labour countries like India, Vietnam, Indonesia, or Mexico struggle to achieve even half of what China already build.

This is means huge investments on every aspects of production from raw materials foundries, and basic supporting infrastructure of power and transportation. Plus better bureacratics management (which many other emerging economies still strugling to do that). The human capitals in China also practically more complete from pool of unskilled, semi skilled, skilled and highly skilled (this means top end engineers).

Basically China did everything that US does in WW2, complete production value chains. Just give them basic design and blue prints, and they can build it including copied and modified them.

Non Chinese sources especially in West sneer on Chinese production as copy cat industry. However able to copy cat something is also big effort. If you give blue prints to other emerging market producers in India, Vietnam, Indonesia, Malaysia or Mexico, even giving permision to copy, they will be struggling to create complete copy (by themselves) just like the Chinese already done.

Sorry Mod as this is bit out of topic for this thread, but just to add that even building copy cat industry on the scale as Chinese already did since one to two decades ago was and is a big achievement. Chinese now already evolving from copy someone else design to create their own design. Something that no other large labour pool nations so far able to do that, on Chinese scales. This including big emerging ones like India, Indonesia, Vietnam or Mexico.

This is why many OEM can not completely leave or relocate everything from China. Even they move their facilities to outside China (mostly to other Asian market), they are mostly relocating their final assembly line. They are relocating to South East or South Asia because the supporting components still sources mostly from China.

All good points Ananda and it will be no easy task to restore a complete supply chain manufacturing capability but COVID and the CCP are prime reasons for the restoration.