Indian ADS aircraft carrier

[kams]

yeah
Its 4500 KG.
Its lower compared to todays fighters.
But Enough for Indian Navy.

In any case Mig-29 will not be armed with Heavy Precision Guided Bombs.
but lighter Anti-Ship/Anti radar/Land attack missiles.

Ajay,
I believe Mig-29 K of IN has a combat payload of 5500 kg. It also has improved engine and radar. Here is the link to news on Mig site.

mig-29K

As a multirole fighter MiG-29K is capable to destroy different aerial, ground and naval targets using wide range of precision weapons. MiG-29K combat payload makes 5500 kg, number of hardpoints – 13 (including the ones on multi-lock bomb carriers). Range of weapons includes "air-to-air" missiles - R-73E and RVV-AE, "air-to-ground" missiles - Kh-31P, Kh-31A, Kh-35E, rockets, bombs (including guided KAB-500Kr and KAB-500-OD) and built-in 30-mm autocannon. MiG-29K airframe exterior is slightly different from MiG-29. Additional fuel tanks are situated in dorsal spine fairing and wing LERXs, increasing total fuel capacity by 50% comparing to first variant of MiG-29. Considerable increase of flight range is also gained due to increased capacity of drop fuel tanks and in-flight refueling capability (with the possibility to refuel from the aircraft of the same type). Due to special coatings Mig-29K radar reflecting surface is 4-5 times smaller than of basic MiG-29. The aircraft has modern 4-channel digital “fly-by-wire” flight control system. MiG-29K/KUB flight and navigation system is built on an open architecture principle around MIL-STD-1553B standard Databus. “Ramenskoye Instrument-building Design Bureau” (RPKB) is the system integrator for onboard equipment. According to the customer’s demand MiG-29K/KUB on-board equipment is international. The main part of it is of Russian origin, including on-board computer, radar, IRST sensor and laser ranger, passive anti-radar missiles homing system. RPKB also manufactures cockpit indication systems, including wide HUD and 3 (7 on MiG-29KUB) colour LCD MFDs. France provides inertial navigation system with Sigma-95 satellite GPS module and Topsight helmet-mounted targeting system. Indian companies supply some radio communication equipment for MiG-29K. Israel provides ECM system. Almost all avionics components of both Russian and foreign origin have already been tested and are serially manufactured. This is fully true for the main on-board equipment component – “Zhuk-ME” multirole radar. It has passed all ground and flight tests, which proved all stated technical characteristics. “Zhuk-ME” is serially manufactured by “Fazotron-NIIR” Corporation and exported abroad. It differs from N-019E radar of basic MiG-29 by 1.5 times increased range of aerial targets detection, ability to fire missiles at 4 targets simultaneously and by presence of several new modes, including “air-to-ground”. MiG-29K/KUB is equipped with new RD-33MK engines. Its afterburner thrust is increased to 9000 kgs comparing to 8300 kgs on RD-33. RD-33MK has total service life 4000 hours, comparing to 2000 hours of RD-33. in 2005 Moscow-based Chernyshev plant will start series production of RD-33MK engines. MiG-29K and MiG-29KUB are members of unified family of aircraft, which also includes MiG-29M and MiG-29M2 multirole fighters

 

[sikh_warrior]

i agree with IN in need of 3 ADS. 2 in active duty and one i reserves for repairs of for upgradation. india does needs actual blue water capability navy to keep upto date in the ever changing world scenarios.

 

[sidewinder2006]

Even two will do for now but for future i expect one aircraft carrier for each command accompanied by two ADS for every naval command.

 

[aaaditya]

sidewinder you seem to be a bit confused here ,ads(air defence ship) is the aircraft carrier,also indian navy has atleast three naval commands ,so that will take the total to 6 aircraft carriers.

my ideal naval force would consist of 4 aircraft carriers and 6 landing helicopter docks.

 

[contedicavour]

sidewinder you seem to be a bit confused here ,ads(air defence ship) is the aircraft carrier,also indian navy has atleast three naval commands ,so that will take the total to 6 aircraft carriers.

my ideal naval force would consist of 4 aircraft carriers and 6 landing helicopter docks.

Wooa that would put the IN in second position behind the USN !!
Wouldn't that be a bit of an overkill versus potential enemies and versus other spending priorities your government has ?
Each carrier costs 1.5 bn USD without the planes and helos...

cheers

 

[kams]

Wooa that would put the IN in second position behind the USN !!
Wouldn't that be a bit of an overkill versus potential enemies and versus other spending priorities your government has ?
Each carrier costs 1.5 bn USD without the planes and helos...

cheers

Yep, we don't have that much cash . See my post in defence budgets thread.

3 carriers is maximum we can afford.

 

[aaaditya]

Yep, we don't have that much cash . See my post in defence budgets thread.

3 carriers is maximum we can afford.

with a foreign exchange reserve of 165billion dollars ,world's 6 or 7 largest economy in terms of gdp,world's 5 th largest economy in terms of ppp,an inflation rate of 4.5% approximately,an economic growth rate 8+%,a favourable debt ration and increased tax earnings etc.

the statements like we dont have that much cash,our economy cannot take it etc are quite outdated.the problem is that the wealth is not evenly distributed among the people and this is not an economic problem but is a social problem.

second thing is that lhd's will be more useful than carriers ,since they are more versatile and would play a very major roles in disaaster management.

 

[contedicavour]

with a foreign exchange reserve of 165billion dollars ,world's 6 or 7 largest economy in terms of gdp,world's 5 th largest economy in terms of ppp,an inflation rate of 4.5% approximately,an economic growth rate 8+%,a favourable debt ration and increased tax earnings etc.

the statements like we dont have that much cash,our economy cannot take it etc are quite outdated.the problem is that the wealth is not evenly distributed among the people and this is not an economic problem but is a social problem.

second thing is that lhd's will be more useful than carriers ,since they are more versatile and would play a very major roles in disaaster management.

No doubt your country could afford 4+ carriers, I was only wondering whether it was optimal in terms of investment vs, for example, enhancing infrastructure investment. I do agree with you that having a sufficient fleet of LHDs is a high priority, one of the rare areas where the IN has an outage.

cheers

 

[kams]

with a foreign exchange reserve of 165billion dollars ,world's 6 or 7 largest economy in terms of gdp,world's 5 th largest economy in terms of ppp,an inflation rate of 4.5% approximately,an economic growth rate 8+%,a favourable debt ration and increased tax earnings etc.

the statements like we dont have that much cash,our economy cannot take it etc are quite outdated.the problem is that the wealth is not evenly distributed among the people and this is not an economic problem but is a social problem

second thing is that lhd's will be more useful than carriers ,since they are more versatile and would play a very major roles in disaaster management.

BS..$165 billion foreign exchange reserve does not mean that cash is yours to spend as you wish. It includes repartition by NRIs, Short term/long term credits from multilateral lending bodies etc. Did you forget about $125 billion + external debt, fiscal deficit around 4% of GDP? What about the money required for infrastructure development ($300 billion projected requirement), which is needed to keep the economic development going?

Sure, we can afford to spend more now than in 90's. Remember in 90's major acquisitions were postponed resulting in major slippages in defence capability.

The eleventh 5 year plan for defence is $145 billion (2007-2012). Navy's share is traditionally around 17%, even if we assume 20% that comes to around $29 billion for next 5 years. Thats no way sufficient to cater for Navy's current acquisition plan, let alone operating 4-6 carrier groups.

India's economy is growing, but it's still not there. Does our threat perception calls for 6 CBG? Or is it to improve the navy qualitatively?

 

[peacelover]

This is very good advancemets in Indian Navy India is enphasizing on the air carriers and the ships only I think India is a bit behind in Submarines.As far as I know the range of aircrafts which are present on the carriers in limited if one missile hits the carrier the carrier with all the aircrafts and helicopters will drown

Don't Be blind in faith.. Sinking a aircraft carrier takes more then a missile. Besides if history be told then no aircraft carrier has never be sunk. Refer to the thread http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2072&highlight=sinking

 

[Big-E]

Don't Be blind in faith.. Sinking a aircraft carrier takes more then a missile. Besides if history be told then no aircraft carrier has never be sunk. Refer to the thread http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2072&highlight=sinking

Don't be absurd. Yorktown was the same size as the ADS will be and she went down.

 

[peacelover]

Don't be absurd. Yorktown was the same size as the ADS will be and she went down.

Thanx for correcting me but still an ADS with all it's support ships and subs can cause a lot of damage before it can be brought down. other US would not rule the seven seas because of it's aircraft carriers.

 

[Big-E]

Thanx for correcting me but still an ADS with all it's support ships and subs can cause a lot of damage before it can be brought down. other US would not rule the seven seas because of it's aircraft carriers.

If India wants to be able to protect her carriers she has to get some form of AEGIS for her escorts. Without it she will basically be a sitting duck for AShMs. If China is succesful with her attempt I imagine the US might be willing to share the technology with our Indian ally.

 

[dabrownguy]

America is not Indias ally. An Ally of India would not sell F-16's or 500 AMRAAMS to Pakistan. India doesn't need American AEGIES and I doubt America will be willing to give away one of its best kept seceret. The Indian Navy has STAR radar and Shtils. Good enough for now but I think they plan to have a dedicated umbrella by 2012. Until then theres not many nations who can oust the Indian Navy in the Indian Ocean.

 

[Big-E]

America is not Indias ally. An Ally of India would not sell F-16's or 500 AMRAAMS to Pakistan. India doesn't need American AEGIES and I doubt America will be willing to give away one of its best kept seceret. The Indian Navy has STAR radar and Shtils. Good enough for now but I think they plan to have a dedicated umbrella by 2012. Until then theres not many nations who can oust the Indian Navy in the Indian Ocean.

Considering we have given India nuclear weapons technology I think that beats out obsolete AMRAAMS. India does need AEGIS. America has given it away already, Spain, Norway, Japan, S. Korea to name a few. I'm not arguing that India isn't king of her ocean right now, but that can change as soon as PLAN decides to launch an AShM attack. Her AAW assets are not good enough to stop a squadron of Sovremmeny's missile attacks.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

America is not Indias ally. An Ally of India would not sell F-16's or 500 AMRAAMS to Pakistan.

I think the Indians are quite well aware that it's in America's best interests to have at least some dealings with Pakistan. Besides, by supplying Pakistan, America can help control it if it were to get aggressive by cutting off supplies. Sales to Pakistan don't do much to shift the balance of power away from India.

India isn't so insecure that it would be troubled by F-16 sales.

 

[contedicavour]

America is not Indias ally. An Ally of India would not sell F-16's or 500 AMRAAMS to Pakistan. India doesn't need American AEGIES and I doubt America will be willing to give away one of its best kept seceret. The Indian Navy has STAR radar and Shtils. Good enough for now but I think they plan to have a dedicated umbrella by 2012. Until then theres not many nations who can oust the Indian Navy in the Indian Ocean.

Shtils have a range of 35km maximum. Even a 1982 Falklands war Argentine Super Etendard could launch an Exocet well outside of Shtil's range without being bothered.
Besides, only the 3 follow-ons to the Delhi DDGs have Shtils on VLS ensuring a proper rate of fire. All the other ships still use single launchers.
There has been in the past in this forum a long discussion on the STAR radar. Its range is inferior to EMPAR or even Herakles (never mind the latest Aegis).

Without better AAW it will be the carriers that will be covering the fleet with the embarked MIGs, while the escorts themselves won't be good enough assets to protect the carriers in case of a determined attack (say, 2 dozen SU30s with Urans) that lmight have managed to get through the MIG screen.

cheers

 

[aaaditya]

If India wants to be able to protect her carriers she has to get some form of AEGIS for her escorts. Without it she will basically be a sitting duck for AShMs. If China is succesful with her attempt I imagine the US might be willing to share the technology with our Indian ally.

well though not exactly aegis ,india has signed a deal with israel for the joint development of the barak2 missile for the indian navy ,this missile is claimed to have a range of 70+kms,india was offered the aster for its warships ,the gorshkov,ads and the p17a, aster was rejected for the gorshkov in favour of the russian missile ,but is still in active consideration for the ads and the later versions of the p17 and the p15.

 

[contedicavour]

well though not exactly aegis ,india has signed a deal with israel for the joint development of the barak2 missile for the indian navy ,this missile is claimed to have a range of 70+kms,india was offered the aster for its warships ,the gorshkov,ads and the p17a, aster was rejected for the gorshkov in favour of the russian missile ,but is still in active consideration for the ads and the later versions of the p17 and the p15.

That would make a lot more sense, even if of course Aster is more expensive. In conjunction with which radar though ?
I hope the French aren't proposing Herakles because it is too short ranged to support properly Aster 30. Only EMPAR is suitable.

cheers

 

[kams]

Without better AAW it will be the carriers that will be covering the fleet with the embarked MIGs, while the escorts themselves won't be good enough assets to protect the carriers in case of a determined attack (say, 2 dozen SU30s with Urans) that lmight have managed to get through the MIG screen.

cheers

Very good point, thats exactly how Indian CBG operated till recently. Absence of Ship based AEW asset further made timely detection of low flying objects difficult till KA-31 were introduced. Upgradation of Harriers radar and introduction of BVR missiles further enhanced their capability. But still, the carrier and her fighters function in fleat defence role while the missile destroyers were tasked with offensive capability.

Having said that, in a recent interview, Admiral Suresh Mehta stated that ADS has been renamed as Indigenous Aircraft Carrier. While one may think whats in a name, it may indicate a major shift in the way carriers are used, from Fleat defence to offensive operation. What made this change possible? Introduction of more capable Mig-29K with Gorshkov, P15 A destroyers, P-17 Frigates, Scorpene , Development of Barak II with 75-80 km range etc are some of the contributing factors allowing IN to make the change.

Coming to AAW capability, you are right about lack of range, 35 km max on P-15 and Talwar class. Now all of the P-15 and Talwars have been fitted with Baraks. Although Baraks have limited range, they are VLS, so giving very rapid rate of fire. Each of P-15 have 48 AAM's (24 SA-17 Kashmir and 24 Barak). Not much is known about P-15A's AAM capability and RADAR suite. Thats where all the rumors of HERAKLES, Empar etc etc are flying high. P-17 is likely to have SA-17 Kashmir in VLS, so do the new modified Talwar on order. When Barak II is ready, will they be fitted on any existing ships? (if yes, what about RADAR - MFSTAR?) or a new ship in AAW role will be built?

Big-E - Aegis is a mighty war ship. Don't know whether we can afford it though If the mortgage terma are attractive ,,,,may be