Indian ADS aircraft carrier

[contedicavour]

thats likely to change with the barak8(super barak) currently under development as a 50:50 joint venture between indian and israel(deal estimated to be worth 300million dollars already signed ),it is believed that the missile will have a range of atleast 70 kms compatibility with mk41 vls launchers ,high speed(since a completely new propulsion systems is being developed for it),multi sensor capability .

according to some rumors thia missile would be based on the arrow2/3 ,but i cannot confirm this news as of now.

Very interesting, I wasn't aware the Super Barak is supposed to reach ranges of 70+km. Still below SM-2III and Aster 30 (range 120km), but already a massive improvement on SA-N-7/17.
I'm astonished India isn't buying Grumble/Rif for its DDGs, as the Chinese do for Type 051C. RAnge 90km.

cheers

 

[Archer]

Frankly the IN is trying to move away from Russian eqpt where it can- the new Krivaks are awesome- the Navy loves them, but the Shtil fiasco at their launch soured a few smiles..
The Bark-NG is an "initial project"...I anticipate DRDO tying up for even better LRAAMs in the future.
Now they have the money and the Brahmos's excellent success has convinced the naysayers and beancounters that such tieups can deliver..

 

[aaaditya]

Frankly the IN is trying to move away from Russian eqpt where it can- the new Krivaks are awesome- the Navy loves them, but the Shtil fiasco at their launch soured a few smiles..
The Bark-NG is an "initial project"...I anticipate DRDO tying up for even better LRAAMs in the future.
Now they have the money and the Brahmos's excellent success has convinced the naysayers and beancounters that such tieups can deliver..

if that is so then why are india's latest destroyers and frigates currently under construction are equipped with the shtil-2,also barak had its share of problems including failed test flight due to integration problems(which were rectified later).

indian navy unlike the indian airforce mostly uses western(european )equipment and relied on russian equipment because they were cheaper,more robust and sanction free.

some examples of european equipment in indian naval service are:

1)british-leander class of frigates,and its derivatives the ganga and the brahmaputra class of frigates.

2)the british aircraft carriers.

3) german-hdw type209 submarines.

4)italian-cosmos midget submarines.

5)sangram class of aopv's-based on south korean ulsan design.

 

[ajay_ijn]

Very interesting, I wasn't aware the Super Barak is supposed to reach ranges of 70+km. Still below SM-2III and Aster 30 (range 120km), but already a massive improvement on SA-N-7/17.
I'm astonished India isn't buying Grumble/Rif for its DDGs, as the Chinese do for Type 051C. RAnge 90km.

cheers

There is some reason for that.
Doctrine may not suggest to buy a Long Range one.
India is not interested S-300, They indirectly showed it.
India went for Arrow, went for Patriot but S-300, but didn't speak a word about it.

But Range is not everything isn't it??
SA-N-7 is a good SAM, the upgraded version Grizzly can go for 45km.

Navy seems to have different opinion on some issues.
They don't build or aquire destroyers as agressively as they build Frigates.
They first got 3 Krivak-III + 3 new, 12 Future P-17 and already made 3 brahmaputra class.
-> They have no interest in aquiring Long Range SAMs. A Blue water Navy Should atleast have one Long Range SAM.
-> Navy Seems to Make Both Klub and Brahmos as the Standard Missiles, where actually its better to have one common missile system. It is unknown whether the Same Launcher can launch both Brahmos and Klub like US launchers have both tomahawk and Standard Missile.

Even Army/Airforce are upgrading old Russian SAMs, The only new SAM Army buyed is SA-19 Grison.
Both are opinion that Akash would replace some but as usual the program got delayed.

 

[contedicavour]

There is some reason for that.
Doctrine may not suggest to buy a Long Range one.
India is not interested S-300, They indirectly showed it.
India went for Arrow, went for Patriot but S-300, but didn't speak a word about it.

But Range is not everything isn't it??
SA-N-7 is a good SAM, the upgraded version Grizzly can go for 45km.

Navy seems to have different opinion on some issues.
They don't build or aquire destroyers as agressively as they build Frigates.
They first got 3 Krivak-III + 3 new, 12 Future P-17 and already made 3 brahmaputra class.
-> They have no interest in aquiring Long Range SAMs. A Blue water Navy Should atleast have one Long Range SAM.
-> Navy Seems to Make Both Klub and Brahmos as the Standard Missiles, where actually its better to have one common missile system. It is unknown whether the Same Launcher can launch both Brahmos and Klub like US launchers have both tomahawk and Standard Missile.

Even Army/Airforce are upgrading old Russian SAMs, The only new SAM Army buyed is SA-19 Grison.
Both are opinion that Akash would replace some but as usual the program got delayed.

Thanks for your post, interesting.
The improved Shtil is according to Jane's 35km max in range. You are right that range isn't anything, and I see improvements : the Kolkata DDGs under construction use improved Shtil in VLS, already much better than the Delhi with the 2 launchers for the older version of Shtil.
If I were in charge, I would use the current good relations with the US to buy SM-2 III-A or B, with 170km in range and all VLS.

cheers

 

[ajay_ijn]

Thanks for your post, interesting.
The improved Shtil is according to Jane's 35km max in range. You are right that range isn't anything, and I see improvements : the Kolkata DDGs under construction use improved Shtil in VLS, already much better than the Delhi with the 2 launchers for the older version of Shtil.
If I were in charge, I would use the current good relations with the US to buy SM-2 III-A or B, with 170km in range and all VLS.
cheers

Agreed dude, SM-2 is just tempting option.
SM-2 is very high Capable Missile, Infact it has ABM Capabilities.
Indian navy does not require such a highly capable missile, as no threat that comes from Seas.
Moreover there can be integration problems.
Its even doubtful if Congress would allow the sale of such highly capable missile to India.
India was't even considering Aster, They seem to have some other planes.

But India was really interested in Israeli Arrow. Sadly US reply was :ban.

but its Surprising how did india Rejected DCN and Selelected urs to design our Carrier.

 

[contedicavour]

Agreed dude, SM-2 is just tempting option.
SM-2 is very high Capable Missile, Infact it has ABM Capabilities.
Indian navy does not require such a highly capable missile, as no threat that comes from Seas.
Moreover there can be integration problems.
Its even doubtful if Congress would allow the sale of such highly capable missile to India.
India was't even considering Aster, They seem to have some other planes.

But India was really interested in Israeli Arrow. Sadly US reply was :ban.

but its Surprising how did india Rejected DCN and Selelected urs to design our Carrier.

Regarding the carrier choice, your ADS resembles the Cavour carrier pretty much, so I guess requested specifications were very close. The fact that France wasn't building any carriers at that point, while we were completing the Cavour, must also have helped. Besides, the French are now considering for their 2nd carrier a larger and different design vs the Indian specs for ADS.

Regarding long range SAMs, just in case you change your mind, I'm sure we'd be more than happy to sell you Aster 30 if the US Congress blocks SM-2 IIIA/B sale, or if the SM-2 costs too much.
Consider Aster 15 already has a better range than the original Shtil and is close to the improved Shtil range...

cheers

 

[tphuang]

when you are talking about something like Shtil or Aster. I think it's less about the range, but more about reaction time, load, speed, anti-jamming, engagement altitudes. And other important part are the sensors that track and guide the missiles.

also for 9M317, there was a kanwa article on it a while back. Interestingly enough, it stated that the range against Antiship missile is 8-12 km and against fighters flying below 1 km is 15 to 18 km and above 1 km is 32 km.

Also considering that they are SARH missiles, they can only go as far as the orekh radars can illuminate the targets

 

[aaaditya]

Regarding the carrier choice, your ADS resembles the Cavour carrier pretty much, so I guess requested specifications were very close. The fact that France wasn't building any carriers at that point, while we were completing the Cavour, must also have helped. Besides, the French are now considering for their 2nd carrier a larger and different design vs the Indian specs for ADS.

Regarding long range SAMs, just in case you change your mind, I'm sure we'd be more than happy to sell you Aster 30 if the US Congress blocks SM-2 IIIA/B sale, or if the SM-2 costs too much.
Consider Aster 15 already has a better range than the original Shtil and is close to the improved Shtil range...

cheers

the indian ads is based on the cavour design,as a matter of fact it is nothing but an enlarged and indianised version of the cavour,fincantierry is actively involved in this project,they are providing consultancy,training to indian designers as well as being responsible for the development of the propulsion modules etc.

 

[contedicavour]

the indian ads is based on the cavour design,as a matter of fact it is nothing but an enlarged and indianised version of the cavour,fincantierry is actively involved in this project,they are providing consultancy,training to indian designers as well as being responsible for the development of the propulsion modules etc.

Happy to share a successful design
The only question I have with the ADS : is the MIG29K the best fighter for it ? The Cavour can house 12 Harriers (or 9-10 F35B) in the hangar and has at least 10 landing spots on the starboard side on the flight deck. The MIG29K is a larger bird than Harrier and even if the ADS is somewhat larger than the Cavour, I'm curious how many MIGs can be fitted aboard (in operational configuration, not for emergency or transport purposes).
My dream for your Navy would be to take up ex RN Sea Harriers with Amraam to complement your existing ones (w/o BVR) , and around 2015 move on to F35B. That would be even better exploitation of ADS, since the Cavour design was originally conceived for F35B STOVL.

cheers

 

[aaaditya]

Happy to share a successful design
The only question I have with the ADS : is the MIG29K the best fighter for it ? The Cavour can house 12 Harriers (or 9-10 F35B) in the hangar and has at least 10 landing spots on the starboard side on the flight deck. The MIG29K is a larger bird than Harrier and even if the ADS is somewhat larger than the Cavour, I'm curious how many MIGs can be fitted aboard (in operational configuration, not for emergency or transport purposes).
My dream for your Navy would be to take up ex RN Sea Harriers with Amraam to complement your existing ones (w/o BVR) , and around 2015 move on to F35B. That would be even better exploitation of ADS, since the Cavour design was originally conceived for F35B STOVL.

cheers

indian air defence ship is a larger version of the cavour ,while the cavour has a displacement of 22-28000 tons,the ads has a displacement of 35-40000 tons.

i agree with you that the f-35 would be a very good option but then it has not been officially offered to india.the f-18 and rafale are larger and too expensive.remember combat aircrafts are only the second priority of the navy.the mig29k is ideal for the threat scenario in this region,it has a weapons load of 5 tons.howver the naval-tejas is being developed for the ads.

 

[ajay_ijn]

F-35 is a US product, So will not be politically suitable for India.

Rafale needs Catapults
F-18 needs Catapults
Even Su-33 needs Catapults.

India Carriers are not designed to operate Such Fighters.
Catapults may be are costlier and need good amount of Power operate.

 

[contedicavour]

F-35 is a US product, So will not be politically suitable for India.

Rafale needs Catapults
F-18 needs Catapults
Even Su-33 needs Catapults.

India Carriers are not designed to operate Such Fighters.
Catapults may be are costlier and need good amount of Power operate.

What limitations to the MIG29K does the lack of a catapult imply ? Does it limit maximum payload ?
Regarding US products, I wouldn't be surprised at all that the US would offer in a few years' time JSF. Who would have imagined a few years ago that the US would have offered F18s to India ?

cheers

 

[aaaditya]

What limitations to the MIG29K does the lack of a catapult imply ? Does it limit maximum payload ?
Regarding US products, I wouldn't be surprised at all that the US would offer in a few years' time JSF. Who would have imagined a few years ago that the US would have offered F18s to India ?

cheers

i dont think there are any limitations on the mig29k's except for the number of aircrafts that can be carried onboard the aircraft carrier.

 

[tphuang]

What limitations to the MIG29K does the lack of a catapult imply ? Does it limit maximum payload ?
Regarding US products, I wouldn't be surprised at all that the US would offer in a few years' time JSF. Who would have imagined a few years ago that the US would have offered F18s to India ?

cheers

yeah, I would think lack of catapult limits the maximum payload. Meaning, that if a catapult is used, Mig-29k should be carry more ordinances than the current jet ski setup. Even so, it seems to me that the current payload is enough for everything that you need Mig-29k to do.

 

[ajay_ijn]

yeah, I would think lack of catapult limits the maximum payload. Meaning, that if a catapult is used, Mig-29k should be carry more ordinances than the current jet ski setup. Even so, it seems to me that the current payload is enough for everything that you need Mig-29k to do.

yeah
Its 4500 KG.
Its lower compared to todays fighters.
But Enough for Indian Navy.

In any case Mig-29 will not be armed with Heavy Precision Guided Bombs.
but lighter Anti-Ship/Anti radar/Land attack missiles.

 

[Crusader2000]

Does anyone know of a good web site for India's forthcoming ADS Carriers?

 

[contedicavour]

Does anyone know of a good web site for India's forthcoming ADS Carriers?

there is an unofficial site dedicated to the Indian Navy
www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/
which is up to date and very detailed.

cheers

 

[Crusader2000]

Does anyone know of a good web site for India's forthcoming ADS Carriers?

I appreciate the web site! Yet, I don't seeing anything new at this point?

 

[contedicavour]

I appreciate the web site! Yet, I don't seeing anything new at this point?

Well, AFAIK steel cutting has just started and elements of the design are still being finalized on the drawing board, so I'm not suprised there aren't any pictures so far. May be you could look under google in the articles of the Indian press, which carries very often news about its defence industry.

Good luck.

cheers