F-35B/C - Naval Air Discussions (USN & USMC)

[Stampede]

Just a question regarding the range of the F35B. As it has the shorter range of the three variants. I do wonder if it is feasible to have a removable fuel tank system to swap in and out of the F35B where the forward lift fan is located. I appreciate this would limit the aircraft to conventional flight, but for a medium sized air force such as the RAAF it may have a benefit in flexibility in swinging a F35B from ship borne operations to land based squadrons.The F35B could be in a pool of aircraft that are allocated to either land or sea based squadrons yet have an increased fuel capacity over their F35B counterparts.
Just a thought and the engineering and cost is not prohibitive for the operational flexibility and benefit.

Regards S

 

[t68]

Just a question regarding the range of the F35B. As it has the shorter range of the three variants. I do wonder if it is feasible to have a removable fuel tank system to swap in and out of the F35B where the forward lift fan is located. I appreciate this would limit the aircraft to conventional flight, but for a medium sized air force such as the RAAF it may have a benefit in flexibility in swinging a F35B from ship borne operations to land based squadrons.The F35B could be in a pool of aircraft that are allocated to land based squadrons yet have an increased fuel capacity over their F35B counterparts.
Just a thought and the engineering and cost is not prohibitive for the operational flexibility and benefit.

Regards S

Yep they are called external drop tanks or in our case F35A's

 

[Stampede]

Yep they are called external drop tanks or in our case F35A's

Drop tanks are a given for all variants WHEN needed.
Just trying to look outside the square as otherwise we are destined to have 4 to 5 CTOL fast air squadrons which I don't see as a good long term fit for the ADF.
One of the big criticism of the F35B has being it's lack of range which I don't particularly have a problem with as for me the benefits out way the limitations. However if the F35B could be reconfigured to be a de facto F35A it may be a benefit for a country that needs VTOL / STOL flexibility across its platforms and Squadrons.

In effect I'm trying to have my cake and also eat it at the same time.

Would it not be a good thing if the F35B could be reconfigured to have an internal fuel load close to it's F35A stable-mate.

Regards S

 

[StobieWan]

I seem to recall that there was at least a feasibility study done on adding a centre tank as an option, allowing the fan and lift engine to be removed and additional fuel installed in a matter of a half day of work or so. I don't know if it got any further than a study however.

As is, the B has longer legs than the Super Hornet (just) so will probably be fine in service without swapping the parts around.

 

[pkcasimir]

Drop tanks are a given for all variants WHEN needed.
Just trying to look outside the square as otherwise we are destined to have 4 to 5 CTOL fast air squadrons which I don't see as a good long term fit for the ADF.
One of the big criticism of the F35B has being it's lack of range which I don't particularly have a problem with as for me the benefits out way the limitations. However if the F35B could be reconfigured to be a de facto F35A it may be a benefit for a country that needs VTOL / STOL flexibility across its platforms and Squadrons.

In effect I'm trying to have my cake and also eat it at the same time.

Would it not be a good thing if the F35B could be reconfigured to have an internal fuel load close to it's F35A stable-mate.

Marine Corps to Refuel F-35B With V-22 Osprey – Navy News

The US Marines are tackling the issue of extending the range of the F-35B in an entirely different way. They are developing the MV-22 Osprey into an air to air refueler. The idea is that the F-35B could launch from a carrier with a heavy weapons load and a lighter fuel load. Osprey refuelers would be hovering over the are ready to top off the F-35Bs thus extending their range.

 

[SpazSinbad]

Does anyone have evidence for existence of drop tanks for the F-35s? AFAIK the Israelis with LM are investigating EFTs/CFTs but that was a few years ago now and nothing heard since then.

One needs to consider the take off / return of an F-35B compared to the others. It is intended for the STOVL F-35 to be near the operating area, thus saving fuel / time in transit. Coming back for a vertical landing either ship or shore means less fuel required at that time, compared to a conventional landing more likely than not, for the others some distance from the operating area. Anyway what happened to air refuelling as has been pointed out already by 'pkcasimir'? USMC V-22s will soon have ro/ro tanking capability.

 

[south]

At the moment I thought that the drop tanks had been removed from the program due to limited benefit (extra weight and drag = higher fuel burn = negligible benefit)

Keep in mind that even the F35B will have something like 14.5klb of internal fuel. That is approx the same as a 2 tank FA18A. The A model with 18k internal has more than a 3 tank FA18A.

 

[t68]

Drop tanks are a given for all variants WHEN needed.
Just trying to look outside the square as otherwise we are destined to have 4 to 5 CTOL fast air squadrons which I don't see as a good long term fit for the ADF.
One of the big criticism of the F35B has being it's lack of range which I don't particularly have a problem with as for me the benefits out way the limitations. However if the F35B could be reconfigured to be a de facto F35A it may be a benefit for a country that needs VTOL / STOL flexibility across its platforms and Squadrons.

In effect I'm trying to have my cake and also eat it at the same time.

Would it not be a good thing if the F35B could be reconfigured to have an internal fuel load close to it's F35A stable-mate.

Regards S

I actually see your point, but It just seems so counter intuitive to me, if RAAF get the F35B there use will revolve around a defined concept of operation, if for whatever reason that we may have to extend its range the ADF has other enablers will be on hand to enhance it wether it be disposable drop tanks AAR or a mobile airfield for ferry operations.

 

[Stampede]

I actually see your point, but It just seems so counter intuitive to me, if RAAF get the F35B there use will revolve around a defined concept of operation, if for whatever reason that we may have to extend its range the ADF has other enablers will be on hand to enhance it wether it be disposable drop tanks AAR or a mobile airfield for ferry operations.

Thanks t68.

I would see this capability as a compliment to AAR and drop tanks.
In other words another trick up the sleeve making a good aircraft even better.

For all three variants of the F35 I have not seen any figures as to the range extension provided by drop tanks. Are there any figures out there in the for public viewing.
While I appreciate the stealth attributes of the aircraft and the benefits of internal fuel storage I can also envisage once the first day of war time has passed that the F35 A,B and C will be doing the long distance bomb truck / ISR role where distance and perseverance employing drop tanks will be more important than a clean airframe.

Regards S

 

[SpazSinbad]

As one may imagine after all this time a lot of detail about the performance of the F-35 variants is not public knowledge. A long time ago now - when drop tanks for the F-35 were dropped (maybe picked up by Israelis/LM again as mentioned earlier) the figures for 'range extension' with drop tanks were guesstimates at best. Anyway I recall F-35B & F-35C graphics from a very old USN? / LM Boss PowerPoint Briefing had an indication; however without supporting details they are a bit meaningless. I'll check..... This 2016 LM brief for Israel has 760nm Combat radius with internal A/A load: http://i.imgur.com/jMDocjY.png

I'm having trouble minimising the PDF file size of the B model however the F-35C graphic PDF is now attached - probably I'll make a graphic out of the B pdf?.... Perhaps the original PDF may be found by searching: Welcome - Naval Postgraduate School

 

[t68]

Use the f35 platform introduce dual engines and use this plane as a fighter capable of competing with the f22. Forward swept wing design of the f35x increases maneuverability but the dual engine eliminates vertical takeoff/landing capabilities. I'm not an expert but my best understanding is the f35 is good at most things and elite at nothing specializing the package with already having the infrastructure in place seems like the most effective solution to me...thoughts?

I'm not an expert in aeronautical engineering, but I think you just designed a new clean sheet plane.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Can we NOT turn the thread into a circus and avoid the "designer jet" inserts

those kinds of threads can go elswhere, not in what is intended to be a factual thread

One now and then is OK, but then all of you who have been here a while will know that it degenerates into wally world really quickly once everyone starts piling or chiming in

the serious threads need to be preserved so as to not degrade the overall quality

FCA loud thoughts can get placed in a brand new thread where people can pile in to their hearts content and not disrupt the serious debates/discussions

 

[Volkodav]

I think many people miss the point that rather than being a jack of all trades and master of none the F-35 is like the P-51 Mustang was in WWII, outstanding, or at least above average, at pretty much everything, while also being capable of doing somethings that few, if any others types could. A few other types were faster, a few more manoeuvrable, some were more heavily armed, a few even had its long range, but none could do everything it could do, nor were they so much better at the one or two things they had an edge on to make them better or more effective overall than the Mustang.

No tactical fighter can penetrate a high threat environment like the F-35 can, no combat aircraft has its situational awareness, while almost none have its LO or counter air capabilities, and those that do are on the same team and complement it.

Who cares if the F-22 is better at air superiority, that the B-2 is better at deep penetration, or that the SU-XX is more maneuverable at low speed, or even that other types can carry more ordinance, when these are not critical requirements? So long ad the F-35 can penetrate and hits the targets it needs to hit, can overmatch the opposition it is likely to face and carry the ordinance it needs to for the first two, then it is fit for purpose. The fact that even having expended its own ordinance, it can stay in the fight as a battlespace manage my and sensor node alone makes it more useful than anything else. It may have fired its AMRAAMs but it can still add to the tactical picture, designate and hand of targets as well as actively jam and spoof opposition sensors.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Who cares if the F-22 is better at air superiority, that the B-2 is better at deep penetration, or that the SU-XX is more maneuverable at low speed, or even that other types can carry more ordinance, when these are not critical requirements? So long ad the F-35 can penetrate and hits the targets it needs to hit, can overmatch the opposition it is likely to face and carry the ordinance it needs to for the first two, then it is fit for purpose. The fact that even having expended its own ordinance, it can stay in the fight as a battlespace manage my and sensor node alone makes it more useful than anything else. It may have fired its AMRAAMs but it can still add to the tactical picture, designate and hand of targets as well as actively jam and spoof opposition sensors.

yep - and the planes effectiveness and advantages are as good as the rest of the enablers in that combat and common operating picture network

its a systems fight - not a platform fight

as an analogy, its like asking someone to go and do research using their funk and wagnell - and putting them up against someone else with an acoustic modem, and another person using a FO node netted to FO servers

the warfighting differences at the information exchange level are a golden mile away from how things have been done before.- and thats before anyone talks about who is the shooter

 

[ngatimozart]

The first Italian F-35B has rolled off the final assembly and check out (FACO) facility 5 May in Cameri, Italy. This is the first F-35B assembled outside of the US.

 

[DaveS124]

4FTS in UK has pumped-out its first ab initio F-35B pilots, now due at MCAS Beaufort. Course there starts in September. First embarked trials in the QE slated for late second half of next year (no fixed date yet).

Some happy scenes here - https://youtu.be/2xLz4Sg4N5I

Worth noting that while the UK elements at MCAS began to detach last year, most of their work is still part of what amounts to just a giant, single US/UK set-up. Much teaching and trial and error to and from both camps even as they separate.

BZ to all on that longest of long and winding roads.

 

[SpazSinbad]

F-35Cs Back at Sea Tests & CarQuals

OBOGS 'fixed' along with catapult pilot/HMDS vibration problem & 'green glow' OLED.

"...The program’s adjusted the helmet display, Winter said. It’s also retrained pilots and made minor adjustments to fix the intense vibration during catapult take-offs (“cat stroke”). There’s no need for a costly and time-consuming redesign of the aircraft’s nose landing gear, as some had thought..." JPO Fixing F-35 Oxygen, Carrier Landing, Software Glitches: VADM Winter « Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and commentary

 

[SpazSinbad]

Excerpts Videos re F-35B/Cs for the USofA info from TAILHOOK 2017 recently:

Tailhook 2017 Symposium - Update on F-35C testing from LM test pilot
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSIzWFxznvM

Tailhook 2017 Symposium - USMC / USN panel talks about F-35B and F-35C progress
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApgPWpx0Msw

 

[SpazSinbad]

Comprehensive interview from Brit Aero Society for Sqdn Ldr Andy Edgell F-35B Test Pilot about Warton Sim/CVF tests upcoming and how test flights are organized. My fav quote:

"In my first hover in the F-35 I sat there at that moment, and looked around, realised I was stationary in every axis, and thought "Goodness gracious me, the guys who designed this are absolute geniuses.”"

Inside F-35B flight test - Royal Aeronautical Society

 

[John Fedup]

This article describes the plan for the first F-35C deployment on Carl Vinson in 2021.

Navy Will Send Stealthy, Carrier-Launched F-35C to War in 2021 - Warrior Maven