F-35 Multirole Joint Strike Fighter

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Marc 1

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
For Canada:

Dump the F-35 immediately in favour of the JAS 39 Gripen NG. A great defensive plane for North America with a very low price (and maintenance) compared to the F-35. Stealth not as important for domestic use. The Gripen has a good range, weapons payload (same weapons as the F-18 so no need to purchase new), can supercruise, and has amazing turnaround time.

As for the NATO and UN obligations, the Gripen will do fine there too. We won't be crashing the door down in the first 48 hours of the next war but our planes will be fine to fly after that, kind of like the F-18s are doing now. I believe Canada should alter its aims internationally anyway so this fits my vision acceptably. Peace keeping operations (with proper mandate and equipment to avoid another Rwanda), and disaster relief are what Canada should be focusing on.

Consider this - we have won little respect in the eyes of our enemies and peers if after the past 10 years our closest allies are questioning our northern borders and old enemies are starting to test our defenses again. Focusing on defense, and becoming experts doing one or two things (disaster relief, peace keeping) will give proper focus to procurement and not allow a much of special interests in military, government, and commercial enterprise to give us a military that does many things but none of them well.

With the cost savings, we'll be able to defend the country, meet international obligations, and have the money to by the 5.5 or 6th generation plane while everyone who bought the F-35 is paying out the nose for the next three decades.
Stealth technology isn't worth the extra 25 billion dollars.
How is it that stealth (sic) is not as important for defensive use? Surely, if the enemy can see you they can kill you regardless of whether you are operating defensively or offensively.

Also, how do you defend the country if you configure your military to be experts in disaster relief and peacekeeping? If you really want to focus on that aspect, disband the defence forces entirely and save still more money - then you can bolster your police force and relief forces.
 

LGB

New Member
Just a thought but if the only thing Canada wanted to do with it's fighter aircraft was to defend Canadian air space that's one set of requirements that perhaps another aircraft could fill. However, doesn't Canada see itself operating within international coalitions and isn't that a different requirement(s)?

It's not a zero sum game. Canada reaps various interoperability advantages with the F-35, billions of dollars in contracts to Canadian companies, etc. It's not simply the purchase price of one aircraft vs another. The savings in cutting the F-35 might not be quite all that one might hope for. That said Canada should of course do whatever is in it's best national interest.
 

Future Fleet

New Member
Do not want to reconfigure the military for only peace keeping and disaster relief.
According to the Canada First Defence Plan, our military is supposed to be concerned with the defence of Canada, then the continent, and third having the capability to take part in international operations and disaster relief. The international component should be focused things like disaster relief because that is in the CF mission statement.

Focusing on defence means not spending 30 billion for fighters that are designed to kick the door down in the next venture into the third world, which is what stealth is best used for.

Saab allows for a 100% foreign build, I don't think we will get the same deal with the F-35s.

Again, to fullfil obligations to NATO and the UN we have to supply fighters, not stealth fighters.

If the military decides it really needs stealth aircraft for international operations there is no reason why 15 or 20 could not be purchased, but to build an entire airforce of them seems a waste of money IMHO.
 

jack412

Active Member
An unusual opinion fleet that doesn't seem to be shared by the RCAF

Aircraft - F-35 Lightning II | Royal Canadian Air Force | DND/CF
The F-35 Lightning II: The latest news

“The F-35 Lightning II is the right tool, at the best value, to properly do the job that Canada and Canadians want their Air Force to carry out on their behalf,” says Lieutenant-General André Deschamps, Commander of Air Command.

“Given the increasingly complex and uncertain future security environment, the F-35 Lightning II will provide Canada with the greatest probability of mission success and the greatest probability that our men and women will survive and return safely from their missions.”

On July 16, 2010, the Government of Canada announced that it was exercising its option under the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) Program memorandum of understanding to acquire the F-35 Lightning II as Canada's next generation fighter.

“As commander of Air Command, I am delighted that the Canadian Forces will acquire the F-35 Lightning II, and I am fully convinced that this is the right fighter aircraft for Canada,” says LGen Deschamps.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Do not want to reconfigure the military for only peace keeping and disaster relief.
According to the Canada First Defence Plan, our military is supposed to be concerned with the defence of Canada, then the continent, and third having the capability to take part in international operations and disaster relief. The international component should be focused things like disaster relief because that is in the CF mission statement.

Focusing on defence means not spending 30 billion for fighters that are designed to kick the door down in the next venture into the third world, which is what stealth is best used for.

Saab allows for a 100% foreign build, I don't think we will get the same deal with the F-35s.

Again, to fullfil obligations to NATO and the UN we have to supply fighters, not stealth fighters.

If the military decides it really needs stealth aircraft for international operations there is no reason why 15 or 20 could not be purchased, but to build an entire airforce of them seems a waste of money IMHO.
Yes there is, a very good reason in fact. Quite simply, Canada can not afford to operate 2 fighter types. Whichever fighter aircraft they will buy, will be their only fighter.

Secondly, whilst we're on the subject, Canada is not spending "$30b" on ANY fighters. It has a fixed budget of $9b for it's replacement fighter project.

Thirdly, why are you so keen on a fighter (Gripen NG) that was rated by the Swiss during their evaluation as WORSE in every area of capability other than operating costs, than your current fighter (upgraded legacy Hornets?)

If you're going to spend $9b on a new fighter, shouldn't you be looking at getting something BETTER than your current fleet and not just newer and shinier?

You've got some rather strange ideas mate. I'm not certain you've thought them all the way through...

Perhaps a bit of re-consideration might be in order? Spend a bit of time reading this thread and then go have a look at the thread we already have discussing the pros and cons of Canada's next jet fighter here:

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/air-force-aviation/canadas-next-jet-fighter-10059/

If you still want to advocate the JAS-39 Gripen instead of F-35, please do so in that thread.

This thread is intended for discussion predominantly of the F-35 aircraft itself. The other thread is more appropriate for what you seemingly want to discuss.

Regards,

AD
 

B3LA

Banned Member
Wasn't it the old Gripen C/D that the Swiss evaluated?

And also...Suppose you are one of those little peace loving European countries and suppose that one rainy day your country will be attacked by LO bandits crossing your borders with bad intent.
There is no early warning and you will scramble late with bogeys all over when you finally get some air under your wings.
As you arrive late to the battle, that cosy option where you line up with your friends, go head to head with your enemies and pick them off BWR with your superior sensor suit and missiles before they can even sense you are there, is lost.
You will go afterburner from start to desperately get your heavy bird up to speed and you will give the highest possible IR signature seen in the world as you fire up the biggest jet engine ever to have been put in a fighter.
But even as you strain your wings and pull all the G’s your machine can deliver, you can not keep up in the following engagement. Those red birds are clearly of another breed than yours : they are labeled as "Air Superiority Fighters"
The six AIM-120 AMRAAMs you have in your internal stores are uselessly spent in near misses while you fail to achieve the upper hand position in the following dogfight.
Now you finally realise that your precious stealth capability is designed to give the lowest possible signature measured from the front or from a front downward angel, but that's of no use now.
As an Archer surgically removes your tail and you reach for the ejection handles, you start to wish that your government had invested in some Typhoons or Rafales instead…
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Wasn't it the old Gripen C/D that the Swiss evaluated?
They evaluated both C/D and NG.

And also...Suppose you are one of those little peace loving European countries and suppose that one rainy day your country will be attacked by LO bandits crossing your borders with bad intent.
There is no early warning and you will scramble late with bogeys all over when you finally get some air under your wings.
I imagine the first thing those LO's bogeys would do would be to crater your runway. They are already all over you and they've remained undetected. No conventional aircraft that I am aware of is designed to deal with a series of 40m radius holes in their runways...

I imagine they would then systematically go about destroying your HAS, workshops, fuel dumps, C4I systems, remaining non-networked IADS and so on. And then they would have completely dominated your little country in much the same fashion as the West has done to every single opponent since Vietnam and your air war would be over.

As you arrive late to the battle, that cosy option where you line up with your friends, go head to head with your enemies and pick them off BWR with your superior sensor suit and missiles before they can even sense you are there, is lost.
You will go afterburner from start to desperately get your heavy bird up to speed and you will give the highest possible IR signature seen in the world as you fire up the biggest jet engine ever to have been put in a fighter.
But even as you strain your wings and pull all the G’s your machine can deliver, you can not keep up in the following engagement. Those red birds are clearly of another breed than yours : they are labeled as "Air Superiority Fighters"
The six AIM-120 AMRAAMs you have in your internal stores are uselessly spent in near misses while you fail to achieve the upper hand position in the following dogfight.
Now you finally realise that your precious stealth capability is designed to give the lowest possible signature measured from the front or from a front downward angel, but that's of no use now.
As an Archer surgically removes your tail and you reach for the ejection handles, you start to wish that your government had invested in some Typhoons or Rafales instead…
And then you awake from your fantasy and realise that whether you'd bought a Typhoon, a Rafale (I read somewhere it's an omni-role strike fighter anyway, not an "air superiority fighter") an F-22 or even a PAK-FA wouldn't have made a lick of difference in this ludicrous scenario?

In fact the only thing that might, would have been an F-35B as at least it would have been able to get airborne, unlike any conventional fighter...

Those poor little European Countries. If only they were smart enough to use a network of cell phone towers, IRST, VHF and L Band radar to render "stealth" completely useless eh?
 
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jack412

Active Member
AD, it's a shame they didn't have the latest on the forums that would've saved them. The chinese single-photon photoelectric radar, we might as well add PE radar to the list of why 'stealth' is completely useless
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
AD, it's a shame they didn't have the latest on the forums that would've saved them. The chinese single-photon photoelectric radar, we might as well add PE radar to the list of why 'stealth' is completely useless
True. Don't forget aircraft mounted bi-static radars too...

:rolleyes:
 

Future Fleet

New Member
AD, it's a shame they didn't have the latest on the forums that would've saved them. The chinese single-photon photoelectric radar, we might as well add PE radar to the list of why 'stealth' is completely useless
Agree about the stealth component being mostly uneffective against anything but a backward nation. See IR trackers for one example.

ADMk2:
The Gripen that performed slightly under the competitors was the older C/D. When they tested the NG they were satisfied the performance gaps had been closed. Remember, they did select the Gripen NG as the winner, not the C/D. One cannot be too careful about partially 'leaked' reports anyway. The Brits and Yanks always buy right into them......yellowcake.....there I said it.

The Germans placed much faith in their technology weapons in ww2. Fancy tanks and aircraft like the Tiger, the ME 163, ME 262, and the HO 229 were technologically impressive, but they have to be there in meaningful numbers to make a difference in battles. With fewer and fewer replacements being purchased as each new generation costs exponentially more then the previous, the law of diminishing returns will kick in with respect to technology.

Doesn't an IR tracker negate stealth advantage in a2a duel?
Didn't the Eurofighter take down the F-22 in real mock duels - the great stealth air superiority fighter?

Last point on the NG: For 9 billion we will end up with 45 F-35s. Not enough to patrol the second largest country in the world, lend planes to NATO and UN, and account for downtime. for 9 billion we could have 150 Gripen NGs.

Mod edit: I've answered you, but from now on, this thread is for F-35 discussions only. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of F-35 or Gripen for Canada do it in the Canada jet fighter thread I gave earlier.

Second warning.
 
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jack412

Active Member
Fleet
it's time you put up sources to where you have formed your opinions, they are obviously from credible people that I haven't read.
45 f-35 or 150 gripens for 9b apple to apple cost would be a good start. If you can't validate your statement, an apology to the members for writing rubbish would be appropriate


@ AD
I'm waiting till there is enough computer power to run cosmic background imaging, that will mess up a lot of tech. Like most stuff, there's a research paper or 2 on it that may give the 4th gen fans a bit of hope.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Agree about the stealth component being mostly uneffective against anything but a backward nation. See IR trackers for one example.
Umm... No. Also the term 'stealth' is typically used by those who do not understand the concepts involved. See the sticky thread A brief history of LO.

ADMk2:
The Gripen that performed slightly under the competitors was the older C/D. When they tested the NG they were satisfied the performance gaps had been closed. Remember, they did select the Gripen NG as the winner, not the C/D. One cannot be too careful about partially 'leaked' reports anyway. The Brits and Yanks always buy right into them......yellowcake.....there I said it.

The Germans placed much faith in their technology weapons in ww2. Fancy tanks and aircraft like the Tiger, the ME 163, ME 262, and the HO 229 were technologically impressive, but they have to be there in meaningful numbers to make a difference in battles. With fewer and fewer replacements being purchased as each new generation costs exponentially more then the previous, the law of diminishing returns will kick in with respect to technology.
With respect to German technological advances in WWII... There is a fundamental and massive difference between wartime WWII advancement and production and the current level of technology and production. Yes, Germany managed a number of significant advances during the war, but so did the Allies. Also, the industrial capacity of the allies dwarfed that of Germany. Take wartime tank production for instance, Germany and the UK both had parity in tank production (numbers) with each producing ~25,000 tanks during the war. However, with the inclusion of US tank production, there is another ~100,000 tanks, and adding in the Soviet Union there is yet another ~150,000 tanks IIRC which ends up leaving a roughly 11:1 ratio of tank production, and not all the German tanks were their most advanced designs. What is significantly different now from back in WWII, is that the complexity of production means that unless a war is extremely long and drawn out, a war between the Great Powers and/or Middle Powers is only going to involve the platforms and systems that are in service and/or already in production at the time hostilities commence. Further, due to the greatly increased destructive capability of current modern weapon systems, the ability to significantly degrade an opponents combat and production capabilities are much more significant than they were back in WWII. What that effectively means is that unless one starts out with advanced kit when things heat up, ones kit is more likely to be degraded or destroyed with minimum difficulty by ones opponent.

Doesn't an IR tracker negate stealth advantage in a2a duel?
Didn't the Eurofighter take down the F-22 in real mock duels - the great stealth air superiority fighter?
See the above link to the sticky. Otherwise in brief, LO does not limit itself to RCS reductions but includes IR and other elements of signature management. As for a Typhoon being able to target an F-22... I do not recall a reliable report of such an event having occurred, and then taking into account DACT there are all sorts of questions about what the rules and conditions of the engagement were. I do recall an F/A-18 which was able to 'kill' an F-22 during an exercise in Alaska, but that happened because the F-22 pilot ignored the Hornet which had been 'killed' already and the F-22 pilot did not realize that the Hornet had 'respawned'.

Last point on the NG: For 9 billion we will end up with 45 F-35s. Not enough to patrol the second largest country in the world, lend planes to NATO and UN, and account for downtime. for 9 billion we could have 150 Gripen NGs.
And just how useful will 150 Gripen NG's actually be, if they need to engage hostile LO aircraft in the 2020's or later? IMO and that of the various JSF partner nations, Russia, China and anyone developing LO aircraft, not all that useful. Otherwise, why attempt to develop LO.

-Cheers
 

jack412

Active Member
And just how useful will 150 Gripen NG's actually be, if they need to engage hostile LO aircraft in the 2020's or later? IMO and that of the various JSF partner nations, Russia, China and anyone developing LO aircraft, not all that useful. Otherwise, why attempt to develop LO.

-Cheers
LER came up in a recent committee meeting, to add context my simple maths has LER at 45 f-35 or 540 gripens

"Mr Liberson: Our current assessment that we speak of is greater than six to one relative loss exchange ratio against in four versus eight engagement scenarios—four blue F-35s versus eight advanced red threats in the 2015 to 2020 time frame"

"Air Vice-Marshal Osley: Airpower Australia and RepSim claim that the F35 will not be competitive in 2020. Airpower Australia's criticisms mainly centre around F35's aerodynamic performance and stealth capabilities. These are inconsistent with years of detailed analysis that has been undertaken by Defence, the JSF program office, Lockheed Martin, the US services and the eight other partner nations.
While aircraft developments such as the Russian PAK-FA or the Chinese J20, as argued by Airpower Australia, show that threats we could potentially face are becoming increasingly sophisticated, there is nothing new regarding development of these aircraft to change Defence's assessment. I think that the Airpower Australia and RepSim analysis is basically flawed through incorrect assumptions and a lack of knowledge of the classified F-35 performance information."

@ Fleet, the generic term 'stealth' includes many techs and includes IR signature
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
basic homework

we seem to travel this path too regularly and far too frequently for our tastes.

can some basic research be done before making technology and capability claims

my eyes are starting to bleed at some of the statements made re "stealth"

getting away from the platform centric debate would also help lifting the quality of discussion when talking about national warfighting requirements...
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Agree about the stealth component being mostly uneffective against anything but a backward nation. See IR trackers for one example.
Ever seen that thing known as the horizon? Notice how you can't see past it, but the earth does in fact extend beyond it? Your "IR trackers" can't see past it either, because the earth is round, not flat.

Furthermore there is a significant reason why infra-red search and track systems are secondary sensor system with radars far preferred.

The reason is volume scan rates and ranging issues.

"Stealth" which your refer to in ignorance exploits these truisms. If you intend to rely on IRST systems for your anti-air targetting, you'll cop Slammer after Slammer from an aircraft like the F-35 with no ability to do anything other than run or die, because it's APG-81 is going to decisively out-range your IRST all day, all night and in all weather.

If you can't target an F-35 through radars means, you've already begun to lose the BVR fight.


ADMk2:
The Gripen that performed slightly under the competitors was the older C/D. When they tested the NG they were satisfied the performance gaps had been closed. Remember, they did select the Gripen NG as the winner, not the C/D. One cannot be too careful about partially 'leaked' reports anyway. The Brits and Yanks always buy right into them......yellowcake.....there I said it.
The Gripen C/D as assessed by the Swiss was considered decidedly inferior to their Legacy Hornets. The NG was assessed as slightly inferior in most areas.

Yes the Swiss chose the Gripen, that was what all the controversy was about. It was a political decision based on cost alone. Capability wise, they'd be better off with any of the other contenders, per their own assessment.

The Germans placed much faith in their technology weapons in ww2. Fancy tanks and aircraft like the Tiger, the ME 163, ME 262, and the HO 229 were technologically impressive, but they have to be there in meaningful numbers to make a difference in battles. With fewer and fewer replacements being purchased as each new generation costs exponentially more then the previous, the law of diminishing returns will kick in with respect to technology.
Yet it's fine to place faith in IR technology? In pre-WW2 bi-static and VHF radar technology as a solution to problems with 21st century defence technology?

I wish I could have my cake and eat it too...

Doesn't an IR tracker negate stealth advantage in a2a duel?
No. IRST is a secondary sensor system for good reason. It's short ranged compared to a fire control radar, it's ability to scan large volumes of sky is poor and it's extremely affected by adverse weather conditions.

Didn't the Eurofighter take down the F-22 in real mock duels - the great stealth air superiority fighter?
Not on your life pal. Did you ever see the Wiley Coyote cartoon where he opens up an umbrella to protect himself from a falling rock or anvil?

That's what's happening here. You're vainly grasping at whatever misunderstood idea you can try and find to justify your opinion.

There's a reason why Gripen has only sold 80 odd export examples in competition with other modern types despite being the cheapest 4th Gen option available. It's because those who can afford better choose that option...

Last point on the NG: For 9 billion we will end up with 45 F-35s. Not enough to patrol the second largest country in the world, lend planes to NATO and UN, and account for downtime. for 9 billion we could have 150 Gripen NGs.
Well the RCAF believes differently. They believe they will ve able to purchase 65x F-35's for $9b, enough to equip 3 squadrons and a training unit.

So far I see nothing wrong with that assessment, as opposed to yours.
 

Beatmaster

New Member
Actually i got one question that is both off topic and on topic.

Lets assume that the JSF is that good, and lets assume that the Gripen NG, EF and Rafale are that bad compared to the JSF ok?
Lets just put the whole debate aside and look at these 4 birds just as little blips on a simulator where they are being put in the following scenario:

Now lets put the JSF on the attacking side during some sort of conflict, where the attacker purely uses JSF (And variants) while the defending nation only uses NG, EF or Rafale (Pick one)

As has been said none of the 3 defending birds should be inferior to the JSF right?

* Note i put the JSF as sole attacker here as not every nation has the capability and money to operate more types of birds. (Which is the case for most JSF partners) So the JSF will in most cases meet a intact and fully operational defense network as again those smaller nations do not have the sufficient capability to take out all or most defense assets. to lessen the danger to its birds.

Then how would the JSF perform against a nation that has sophisticated Radar Capabilities and a solid Long, Meduim , Short Range air defense network (I mean the defending nation has in this scenario a really serious defense network going)
Backed up by AWACS, satellites and obviously its NG, EF or Rafale based airforce.

How would the JSF maintain its capabilities against those inferior birds and prove its superiority against a multitude of ground and air based systems that combined actually can detect the JSF.
Eventually the JSF will get detected and then,
I assume that a NG, EF or Rafale pilot gets the data from the whole network and the only thing he has to do is use the relayed data and unleash his firepower.

My point here the JSF is suppose to be better, and would be the bird for the job, however in a increasing sophisticated world where more and more nations acquire sophisticated systems for both ground and air, sooner or later the JSF is going to be downgraded in its ability, not because the bird is bad, but because the rest of the world adapted their defense grid to track and kill a JSF.

A nation might not have the capability to produce a F-22 or a JSF, but it might be just good enough to produce a radar system or a piece of airdefense that might be able to eat the JSF for dinner.

We have seen this during the cold war that the western nations did come up with some fancy toy and within months the Russians did have some sort of counter for it.

So back to the JSF in this regard, At this point the JSF is rated best of the best, but how realistic is this? given this hypothetical scenario (Which is btw not far off the real world)
Personally i do not see a JSF or any bird in that regard penetrate deep into Russian (Or western for that matter) and deliver its payload and then get back home save and sound personally i dare to argue that the current systems should be able to swat the JSF out of the sky.
And in this scenario a nation that does not operate the JSF or F-22 does not have to be necessarily less capable in denying the JSF its intended role.
Stealth one of the biggest assets of the JSF is only a temporary benefit imo.
That does not mean that the JSF is not the top dog or that its lesser then everything else, but fact is for most JSF partners who solely rely on the JSF as their attacking and defending air system it will be in a event of war: The JSF against everything else. (If you know what i mean)
Keep in mind the JSF has a impressive tool set but against a whole defense network that is being supported by both air and ground units the intended superiority of the JSF is just a technical detail which can be denied by a good organized foe. And as i said before how far can the JSF be downgraded by enemy efforts before it becomes " less" or to "less" or inferior to the same NG, EF or Rafale (As those birds lack the technical details and options the JSF enjoys but they do have the benefit of being supported by its host nations defense network) So one might say that during a defending situation a NG, EF or Rafale might be able to outperform and outclass the JSF.

Just something to think about, as i honestly cannot believe that everyone NOT having the JSF is going to sit back and do nothing to counter this bird.

I think its a very valid question.
 
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ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
No-one is suggesting the F-35 is so good that nothing can be done to counter it. Conversely, those capabilities you are suggesting are a system.

That system won't be contending soley against the F-35, they'll be contending against the system in which the F-35 is operating.

Look at Australia's planned networked force. It will comprise F-35, Super Hornet / Growler, Wedgetail, a medium UAV capability, P-8A, BAMS Maritime UAV capability, KC-30A, WGS satellite comms capability, Link 11/16 data-linking and future variations, Satellite surveillance capability, JORN over the horizon radar, TPS-77 long range air defence radar, various short ranged and civilian air traffic radar capability, AEGIS destroyers, other 3D Naval air defence radar capability, passive ESM annd EW/SIGINT / ELINT capability, Naval and Airpower Co-Operative Engagement capability and maritime and land based air defence missile systems.

Then we will have our offensive strike capabilities, long ranged air, missile and special forces strike capabilities, amphibious capabilities, long ranged air insertion capabilities and so on.

That is just what Australia will operate from within our own resources, without considering what our allies could contribute in a Coalition.

So considering that this is the breadth of capabilities you will have to exploit or overcome for an underfunded middle power like us, imagine what a superpower running F-35 is going to bring to the table?

Not doing so is what GF is referring to. Certain people are cherry-picking ne side of an argument to try and support their own.

An utter waste of time with no bearing on reality.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Now lets put the JSF on the attacking side during some sort of conflict, where the attacker purely uses JSF (And variants) while the defending nation only uses NG, EF or Rafale (Pick one)
I have an idea, lets make one of the 4 Gen+ fighters the attacker, back it up with a variety of assets in an integrated strike package and put it up against the same integrated air defence system.

What will the result be (F-35 vs. strike package)?

Will it do better or worse than the F-35?

Will it be cheaper or more expensive to procure, train and maintain?
 

Beatmaster

New Member
I have an idea, lets make one of the 4 Gen+ fighters the attacker, back it up with a variety of assets in an integrated strike package and put it up against the same integrated air defence system.

What will the result be (F-35 vs. strike package)?

Will it do better or worse than the F-35?

Will it be cheaper or more expensive to procure, train and maintain?
Well obviously it has been said and claimed that in a dog fight the JSF will come out on top against all 4 gen types, so in a defense situation it will render everything else (That has wings) useless.
So yeah in a defense situation with the backing of all the ground/air based systems the JSF will be a nightmare for any attacker no doubts.
* Unless you talk about serious numbers obviously the US is the only one at this point that will operate the JSF in mass numbers, because then the numerical advantage comes into play and might change the balance in favor of the attacker.

But in a attacking role the odds are against the JSF and with respect it does render the JSF sort of no being able to life up to its superiority status.

And to add to this what is being planned for the JSF (As upgrade or modification) to give it a little more in attacking power and capability?
 
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Beatmaster

New Member
No-one is suggesting the F-35 is so good that nothing can be done to counter it. Conversely, those capabilities you are suggesting are a system.

That system won't be contending soley against the F-35, they'll be contending against the system in which the F-35 is operating.

Look at Australia's planned networked force. It will comprise F-35, Super Hornet / Growler, Wedgetail, a medium UAV capability, P-8A, BAMS Maritime UAV capability, KC-30A, WGS satellite comms capability, Link 11/16 data-linking and future variations, Satellite surveillance capability, JORN over the horizon radar, TPS-77 long range air defence radar, various short ranged and civilian air traffic radar capability, AEGIS destroyers, other 3D Naval air defence radar capability, passive ESM annd EW/SIGINT / ELINT capability, Naval and Airpower Co-Operative Engagement capability and maritime and land based air defence missile systems.

Then we will have our offensive strike capabilities, long ranged air, missile and special forces strike capabilities, amphibious capabilities, long ranged air insertion capabilities and so on.

That is just what Australia will operate from within our own resources, without considering what our allies could contribute in a Coalition.

So considering that this is the breadth of capabilities you will have to exploit or overcome for an underfunded middle power like us, imagine what a superpower running F-35 is going to bring to the table?

Not doing so is what GF is referring to. Certain people are cherry-picking ne side of an argument to try and support their own.

An utter waste of time with no bearing on reality.
I did not intend to cherry pick any side here and i did not suggest anything either then what is being said and claimed by all the sources provided,
in this topic but its the question if the JSF can do in todays real world what its suppose to do within its current tool set and intended role.
As you said Australia has some reasonable capabilities that it can bring in to a conflict on its own, and this applies for most JSF partners if not all.
But the JSF is being made with the mind set to combat dangers of yesterday, today and tomorrow as a multirole aircraft being able to do it "all"
But given the real world situation is it actually able to do it " all" or would a nation be better of having specialized air assets like the F22 for superiority, JSF as a defending aircaft and some sort of bomber for offensive actions?
The reason in say this is not because of the money involved to operate special air units but more witht he idea that to my understanding a mult-irole can do it all, without being top notch in everything.
example: Multirole can A2A? yes but its not the best, can it bomb? yes it can but its not best....its lets say a all-round

My point here would that not be better to overcome todays dangers? as you have more options at your disposal to overcome those dangers you are talking about?
 
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