Consider this a warning. Spouting off inflammatory nonsense like this (and sticking your own words into someone else's mouth in the process) isn't welcome on these boards, you know that. Marc said nothing of the sort and it's a total overreaction to assume he did. Please, try to avoid this. Thanks mate.
Bonza this was in no way inflammatory and it is not nonsense, and please do not accuse me of sticking words into someones mouth, because i am not.
I made a comment on my own based upon a reaction and perhaps its because i am dutch and have a different way of building up a topic, but this is in no way inflam, or sticking some word into mouths....
If this is what you think then i am sorry for it as it is not intended to be.
On a personal note: See my previous posts on different topics i often come around like this without being inflammatory.
* Keep in mind English is not my main lang.
But again sorry.
@ Marc 1
We are not talking about all infrastructure, we are talking about aerospace infrastructure. Were you aware that Airbus delivered more airliners that Boeing last year IIRC? Plenty of aerospace industry in europe. That to me speaks of a significant industry.
What i mean with infrastructure is that the US invested so huge in the aerospace in terms of research, development and production the past 50 years (mainly during the cold war) so the entire industry around it is massive, one could say that the US is one big research chain, there is no way Airbus or any company can even rival that in the next 30 years.
EU is broke. Don't kid yourself. Maybe one day - not now - financial markets would go into meltdown.
Yes the EU is broke and no the EU is not broke, one of the main problems the EU has is that the US market kinda crashed, and one crisis after another is being presented but one could say that the US is kinda broke as well if you look at it that way.
Now do not get me wrong for now the EU lacks money, but ones recovered it does not have the capital that the US has but it aint poor either, the amount of funds available in the EU would surprise friend and foe. But ill get your point.
No and you are way ahead of where I live in Australia. We have one company producing composite doors for the F-35 - that's about it. The days when we can design and product anything more than a light twin turboprop are gone.
Australia can a lot more then just composite doors, and infact they make more parts for the JSF.
Can I summarise what you have written? So, the US has 5th gen, Europe does not (but they could if they wanted). and the 'bad guys' probably will be able to field 5th gen tech too eventually. Sounds pretty much that you agree with what I said F-22, F35 and B2 are the only 5th gens operational, it will take time, research ( for some - not europe) and much money to join the club. Until then unless you operate any of said aircraft you are fighting with one arm tied behind you back, particularly if the defence force operating the 5th gen makes use of it in the network centric context it was designed for.
Yes i agree with this, you know what?
There is nothing you said that i would deny there is nothing which you said that is not true, thats not the point as i said before, but the US always have been taking care of their own and others so the whole EU is virtually integrated into the US industry as the US industry has everything, (Draw up a plan or blue print and ones you are ready there will be a factory ready to produce it in the US) Thats what i did mean with the Infrastructure in the beginning of the topic.
But to add to this swerve did say it on a different forum in way better words then i ever could so let me quote him:
Japan isn't willing to spend the money. Its research is just that: research. It's aimed at keeping up with the technology, in case it's ever needed, & (like the British Replica programme of the 1990s) putting a little pressure on the USA to sell its latest & best. All it has produced so far are mock-ups & RCS test models.
South Korea has the GDP of Spain. Is it really going to develop a 5th generation fighter all on its own? Its most advanced aircraft to date is a supersonic jet trainer cum light attack aircraft, developed with considerable US help, the development & export of which is severely constrained by its dependence on US technology. Only mock-ups to date.
Russia has more money & technology, & the willingness to use it. A good candidate, but see Distillers post for problems.
China has the money, but is still lagging in the technology, so far. The Chinese will field one, but not yet.
Europe has the money & the technology, but it's too big a project for individual countries to be willing to attempt it, & bickering between states, the unwillingness of some to spend, & the availability of the F-35, makes it unlikely, IMO, that any European country or consortium will bother.
Source:
The thing is what i said earlier the EU has the capability in terms of research to develop a 5th gen if they wanted to. But that is the EU as one body.
Obviously it will not come over night and obviously the EU has to step up their efforts i will not deny that but in general the EU is not far behind the US in research.
Keep in mind there are loads of European science figures that active in the US so one could argue that the EU helped the US to the technological level it is right now the same way as the US contributed in the technological level that the EU has.
There are far more ties and links between the 2 then you might think.
Here is a interesting
link
Again i do not say you are totally wrong as you are not ok?
@ Abraham Gubler
No the problem is money and skills, a lack of both. Sure the EU as a whole or a subset of such nations or even the UK, Germany, France, Italy, Sweden acting alone could build an F-22/F-35 type aircraft. But it would take decades and billions to develop the required technology. No nation or group of nations in the EU has the capacity to go out tomorrow and start to put together an F-22 or F-35 type aircraft and have it in squadron service in 10 years or so.
Well thats exactly what i am saying tech wise 5th gen is not just a US thingy.
And yes i said it would cost money and yes it takes time. and i never said that there is a nation in the EU that could swing on the production line an viola watch the new Euro F-22 that not what i said.
What i did say is that the EU has the technological base, needed to develop a 5th gen on their own IF they wish to do so.
Individual the EU nations do not have the cash and tech to even think about such a huge project, but combined all together they will have a very credible foundation to start a project. Keep in mind the EU based aircraft development industry has a wealth of history and knowledge to tap from, its not like they have to start from scratch.
Look at the Rafale, EF and Gripen they do not have stealth but one could say with sufficient funds and dedication onto those programs i could see some magic happen....
Just because Europe and many other nations around the world are technologically sophisticated does not mean they can summon specific technology out of thin air. It took the USA decades and billions to develop technology crucial to making a 5th generation fighter and they keep it closely guarded. There is no evidence that any EU nations can build the type of engines and aerostructures required for F-35 not to mention F-22 performance. And certainly even less to demonstrate they could build stealth aircraft.
Yes it did took the US decades and billions but one mistake made is to think that the US did all this without help of the EU.
As i pointed out before is that the US and EU have over 50 years of history where they both work on the next new thing. most of these projects are a joined or partly joined venture as the US has the whole system at their disposal.
Ask yourself the question what if the US does not have its current " system" and EU would have that massive industry, infrastructure and the huge concentrated production capability that the US does have? then you would see the US science guys come here instead of the EU guys go to the US.
The EU chose not to have such incredible capability in terms of research, development and production for that we go to the US.
And this is mainly because the EU is not one body, it likes to act as one but fact is they are all little nations who like to keep their own things going (At great expense to the EU potential imo)
And thats what i said if the EU would unite and would agree to seriously start working on a 5th gen then yes perhaps it does take 10 years from now, but they will have a end product that is top of the line.
All those years that the US has been researching the next best thing the EU has always or nearly always been there doing their part offering their part in terms of research and knowledge.
It would require a massive mobilisation of effort for a European country or group of countries to achieve similar development on their own. And the same goes for other countries around the world.
So true....
And in regards to Bonza his warning on my post what i said earlier about sticks and stones was actually a little pointer as people often think that the EU is backward, and that if it does not come from the US then its either gen 1 or worse.
But fact is that most systems available in both EU and US are joined programs.
And thats the issue at hand, there is not doubt that the US has the edge but there is no doubt either that the EU is very close to the US.
I hope you guys see my point.
But on the other hand look how many nations have their hand into the JSF and doing their part based upon their skill set....