Arms race: Greece & Turkey

[Parmenion]

Anyway the cost of F-35 eventually will be much higher than $83million each. Probably it will settle at more than $100millions. Plz recall the initial estimations of the cost of EF2000 and the actual one... at least 1/3 up....

But the Turks will do what they did earlier with the F-16s, they will be dedicated to one aircraft type (F-35) to reduce overall costs. In the far future F-35 will replace even their f-16s. If F-35 is as stealhty as claimed the theatre of Aegean will change dramatically, that why Greece already has economic plans (about 10 billions euros) for 2015-2020 to buy arount 80 F-35 as well. Of course we will pay them more expensive and their maintaince cost will much higher than theirs...as usual...

I dont think they will intruduce in the meanwhile another type (such as EF2000). Greeks however are going to introduse as soon as possible around 40 EF2000 with option for 20 more.
The Turks proved very rational economic wise in their military expenditure, in contrast with us Greeks which we "waste" away billions buying influence and trying to maintain qualitative edge by buying from a hell lot of different ventors (but it is nice to see Mirage2000-5 flying over the Aegean with exocet and scalp-eg and our mainland and islands seeded with TOR-M1, OSA, CROTALE NG, S-300, PATRIOT, improved hawk and land-launched sparow missiles and exocets...:nutkick ).

*Note that the land-based exocets of Greece can hit the Turkish fleet in asia minor naval-bases while fastened in the port.... and the S-300 can reduce to metal-scrap the tuaf F-16 while flying over their land...
Yes we are a small nation... yes the arms dealers burn our arses....blah blah, but we maintain a series of strategic advantages over the turkish forces..

I think the scenario of Israelis helping the turks in a case of war, other than supplying them with missiles, ammo, etc(business as usual) is science fiction. Also F-15s (or any other fighter) are not a toy to move around countries... In order to functionally integrade a fighter in your fleet you need machine-specific support structures and years of training, etc. If Turkey decides to buy F-15s (totaly unlikely) by the time they will be operationally active they will be starting to become outdated... The tuaf are not that stupid.

From what i read the main priority of turkish forces is their navy, on which they plan to spend many billions to transform it both in quality and size, and the native production of a main battle tank, which i think although it will be produced in vast numbers, it wont be able to achieve the quality of Leopard 2A6GR.

 

[Parmenion]

HELLENIC AIRFORCE

70 F-16C/D Block 30, 50 (To be upgrated to Block52+ untill 2015)

60 F-16C/D Block 52+ (Conformal tanks,J.H.M.C.S.,IRIS-T,etc) Thoughts for a minor buy of 10 more.

19 Mirage 2000E/BGM (To be upgrated to M2K-5 untill 2015)
25 Mirage 2000-5

36 F-4E Peace Icarus 2000 (New cockpit,new radar,new avionics, AMRAAM capability- similar to German upgrated F-4E)

50 A-7 Corsairs (To be retired and replaced when the new fighter arrives, around 2015)

25 RF-4E phantoms (Probably will be retired with the A-7s)

40 EF2000 Coming soon.........

Greece deploys almost the same missile-bomb collection with turkey (AIM-7,AIM-9AIM-120,Mavericks,LG Bombs etc), but overmore it deploys R550,MICA,Scalp-eg,IRIS-T,exocets.

I dont see how the tuaf with smaller number of advanced aircraft (but a hell lot of flying coffins) can compet with haf over the Greek air-defence saturated Aegean environment, until the coming of F-35 (almost certain latter than 2015+).

Greece will place an order within 2008 for 40 (+20) new fighters with demands for fast delivery, most probably EF2000 as we had already a deal in late 90s for 90 EF2000 but unfortunately it was scraped by the new goverment. Rafale does not stand much change as HAF needs a clear air-superiority fighter to slap the tuaf aged F-16 arses around, noooot.
In reality the EF2000s will be stationed in the furtherst airbase in western Greece and not be utilised for the routine tuaf f-16 virtual interceptions. They are going to be used only in a real scenario so as the turks will not know how to face the weapon...

The french will get a contract for FREDA air-defence frigates (3+3) with Scalp-Navale in addiotion as the French declared that they will release the system to Greece. Note that France and Greece share decades old close relations, the French let the Greeks use their "Helios" spy satellite under agreement, which shows clearly the trust between the 2 countries.

Vladimir (ok Medventev...) already has a contract for 420 BMP-3s, and if judge by their anounced costs (1,2 billion euros) they will come with full extras... Also the upgrade of S-300 to S-400 (400km range......), purchase of BUK-M2 and a few additional TOR-M1 are very realistic considering the Karamanlis-Putin "energy tango".

The USians are not going to get any great contract, cause of their stance over the fyrom name issue and their general additude towards Greek issues. Greece slowly abandons the US and comes closer to France, Germany and Russia. Ahhh it is fun to make weapon-politics in a multi-polar world.... But expensive for the Greek taxpayer....

 

[IrishHitman]

1. No Irish you are wrong in the F-35 thingy. Turkey is a minor participant in the program and will buy 100 units when it becomes available. F-22 is out of question of course, pure science fiction.

2. You are right on others things Irish dude though. Of course human rights in Turkey are meaningless, what do you think are those "reforms" that Turkey needs to make in order to stand some change getting in EU...? Paint their houses blue with yellow stars...?

3. Turkey is a semi-dicatorship, where the amry generals play a signifficant role in political decisions.
In press everything is censored by the fear of oudated military laws found only in absolute regimes.
People are persecuted for their ideas. Not to mention the paramilitary "gray wolves" murdering people that want something to change in the ragime.
But sometimes give us quite a laugh, eg they banned youtube for some time in Turkish networks cause some Greek kid made a vid that made fun of Kemal Attaturk, a personality cult figure in turkey.

Not to mention how they are taught history in schools...

4. Turks forbid every year their folk by crude force to honor the 1st of May. Imagine if in Ireland the goverment questioned the right of the people to assemble...

5. Thats why turk posters come so much arrogant in their answers. In their minds (they are taught so) turks are the strongest after the US. Turks have advanced technology, advanced economy, turks have the most ancient language and civilization, turks rule! etc....

Try to imagine the typical Irish ultra-ultra-nationalist...... Well 99% of the turks are brainwashed to think like this.

Of course the turkish friends will have a different opinion. It is natural, they will feel being attacked, rather than pointed to the facts.

6. But plz friends explain to us what exactly are those "reforms" you need to make to get into EU....? Plz answer because you will make me search and find the EU text refering to them and you will be emparassed....

1.
Is the Turkish Government a minor contractor or is it a Turkish company?

2.
Turkey will still probably ascend to the Union, unless of course, someone vetoes it. My bet is on Greece. And it wouldn't be unjustified.

3.
European concerns are more in the Islamist movement: i.e. the people who want to desecularise Turkey, and make it into an Islamic Republic. Doing so would destroy it's chances of joining the EU, which respects right of religion..

4.
Actually, right to protest is subject to "public morality" here, meaning the Irish Govt can stop a protest going ahead if it's undermining the state. It can stop communist or fascist marches if it wishes. In practice though, it's never been used.

5.
Even the Irish ultra-nationalists don't believe that Ireland is superior to Britain in military might... Five minutes on the internet, and anyone with eyes can see that Turkey isn't anywhere near second in any measure of civilisation..

6.
If Turkey doesn't bring in serious reforms, which it won't under its current government.
The secularists need to win for that to happen. The EU is not confident in Turkey's reforms so far.

 

[Parmenion]

1. I think that all the major turkish defence companies are goverment controlled,so its about the same think. I dont have the slightest question that Turkey will buy in the future large numbers of F-35, and doing so the US will let them to assembly a large portion of them locally, exactly what happened with their F-16s, the same patern.

2. No mate. Greece is one of the most warm supporters of Turkey's admission to EU. It is a serious matter for us getting the turks in EU, not generally of course but in a specific context. We (all of our political parties) believe (also the EU comission believes that) that naturally Turkey needs serious reforms. Also our belief is that if turkey becomes a moderate politically stable country as the rest of EU countries, all our bilateral problems will be very easy to solve. Getting rid of the turkish generals and reforming the national views of turks is the milestone for solution in the Aegean dispute, we will be probably be ready for some kind of comprimise with them in such a case.
I hope you understand what i mean. Greece is praised by the EU comission for its stance towards turkey in the admitance issue. OF COURSE we are not going to accept an UN-REFORMED turkey in the EU, but meeting the EU criteria means a-priori reforms hence our position is more than clear and very logical.

3. If EU wants turkey in it, we must be ready to have a muslim nation among us (UK, Germany and France already have a large community). The turkish state might be very secular indeed but the people of turkey are believers. No one can deny them this right, of course fontamentalists are not included in this case...
My fear is that by losening the grip of the military and police establishment in turkey during reforms, that holds back fontamentalistic moves, might enable the militant muslims to strenthen their position. For example freedom in UK enables the muslim society over there to foster some of the worlds most militant muslims.

4. I am not familiar of course with Irish constitution and common law. But in Greece,Italy,Spain, the right of people to assembly is holy. In Greece especially in this matter we are over-sensitive cause of our junta experience (which was brought down by a student revolt), and so we allow every kind of civil mobilization, of course with some kind of police monitor and intervention if lifes are threatened. To honor the student revolt in Greece in all university premises "asylum" is in place. No police or army can acces universities premises. In order to do so the whole governing council of a university must decide affirmative for police intervention.
I am sure you watched over BBC several burnouts of Athens by anarchists or clashes of left organizations with fascist organizations... Our belief is that a few property damages are worth to maintain the right for our citizens to express their belief even in somekind of extreme manner. We cannot forget that in Greece peoples movements (left,center or even right wing) are the strength of our society, and also it is a matter of pride.. Greece must honor its hostoric title as benefactor of democracy and not let again any junta come to power, even if we have to compromise somewhat public order.

But prohibiting the 1st of May celebration by unions or a legal communist party with parliamentary represantaion march for the EU standards is unthinkable i think. In turkey people get severelly buttered in demonstrations and tortured in prison cells... And we are not talking about isolated incidents which happen in all EU countries but we are talking about goverment policy.
In Greece some cowboy policemen had beat a student in a protest. The incident was denounced by all parties, the goverment, the police administration. The policemen were brought to justice and it was a major issue in the press for quite a few months. In turkey nobody would ever knew about it. Am i lying cause i dont like turks? Check human rights reports for turkey... you will be bored reading page after page....


5. Yeah but ultra-nationalists in less developed countries tend to halucinate hardcorely.... Turk historians, writting books aproved by their ministries claim that Homer was turk, that Italian Etruscans are Turks, and many other such historic "diamonds"... Something like the fyromian creative history writting...

6. The problem is that in Turkey the muslim party is the most moderate... whereas the secularist is the more militant.... I dont see Turkey in EU over the next 20 years (of course turks will deny that, they even believed stronlgy that by 2010 they will be in EU and in another forum they were trying to make fun of me...). Already countries such as France offer only co-operation in another wider euromediteranian alliance including Maroco, etc.

 

[Stimpy75]

very interesting i must admit.....but not my opinion:
but sry to tell you that but i guess this is way off topic
and i believe it has been discussed earlier in this thread....
about your technology edge regarding your A-A missiles,well you have Iris(well you will have it someday) and we have our AiM9-x(or will have it)...
and if the LEO IIA6 GR is really better then our next MBT....well it´s not build yet but it will be mostly based on the K-2,which is IMO a really asskicking machine
you are right about your impressive weapon array but i don want to be the officer who is in charge of spare parts for all the fancy toys:shudder
but you have to admit that Turkey is trying to get self sufficient in regards to weapon purchasement/building(+and spare parts!), a trend i don´t see by our greece friends

 

[IrishHitman]

very interesting i must admit.....but not my opinion:
but sry to tell you that but i guess this is way off topic
and i believe it has been discussed earlier in this thread....
about your technology edge regarding your A-A missiles,well you have Iris(well you will have it someday) and we have our AiM9-x(or will have it)...
and if the LEO IIA6 GR is really better then our next MBT....well it´s not build yet but it will be mostly based on the K-2,which is IMO a really asskicking machine
you are right about your impressive weapon array but i don want to be the officer who is in charge of spare parts for all the fancy toys:shudder
but you have to admit that Turkey is trying to get self sufficient in regards to weapon purchasement/building(+and spare parts!), a trend i don´t see by our greece friends

Your new MBT would have to be able to face not only the Leopard 2, but also the LeClerc, the Ariete, upgraded T-72s, T80 variants, and most of all, the Challenger 2, perhaps the best protected tank in the world. And you would have to face all of them in numbers.

The K-2 is the bastard grandchild of the M1 Abrams anyway, I seriously doubt any tank based on it would make big improvements over the current generation of MBT. Nor do I don't see Turkey making enough of them, or with the same protection, as the L2 or the C2.

As for self-sufficiency, Greece doesn't need it for it's military.
It has the EU nations to buy plenty of weapons from.

 

[Atilla [TR]]

Do not insult anyone on this board, we are all adults here and we expect you all to act like it.
Consider this a warning.

 

[IrishHitman]

This does not apply to me since I grew up outside of Turkey, not in Germany either. My education I have received is most probably better then yours or you have a lower I.Q then that of a grizzly bear (considering you cannot spell embarrassed). I suggest you go to Siberia, but then again you are a Greek so I think you are in "Retard Nation" already. And I wish 99% of all Turks where ultra nationalistic, like me, by now my location would be Unye Turan, not Unye Turkey. And you should not say how civilized your country is when they openly support Kurdish terrorists, remember the Greek embassy in some African country? Who was hiding in the basement? Who gave us this info.... CIA and Mossad together with MIT! Of course your national hero that was in that basement is now in a Turkish prison captured by Turkish special forces, you might remember them from Kardak.


όλος Ελληνικός είναι ηλίθιοs!

Kurds are not terrorists, they merely fight for what they believe is their country. The same way the Turkish army defends against them for what they believe is their country.

I advise you to cut out the personal insults, or the mods will definitely have your head on a plate. Nor does it impress anyone. I could come up with 1001 insults against your intelligence if I so wished, but I won't, because that would be against the rules of civility on these forums.

MODS:
όλος Ελληνικός είναι ηλίθιοs! <- Is a personal insult, I request that Atilla get a cooling down ban.

 

[Atilla [TR]]

I think eliaser told you to calm down before a Turk came, I think he was to late. I was insulted continuously by someone else why have you not given this same message to him? When things like this, unfairness happen to fellow Turks it makes them more nationalistic as well keep it up.

 

[IrishHitman]

Keep this thread on-topic please, if you want to discuss the insults, do it via PM.

The mods need to take a serious axe to parts of this thread...

 

[Atilla [TR]]

Just to clear something up never did I say all Kurds are terrorists, I just said Kurdish terrorists. There is a big difference!

 

[Stimpy75]

Your new MBT would have to be able to face not only the Leopard 2, but also the LeClerc, the Ariete, upgraded T-72s, T80 variants, and most of all, the Challenger 2, perhaps the best protected tank in the world. And you would have to face all of them in numbers.

The K-2 is the bastard grandchild of the M1 Abrams anyway, I seriously doubt any tank based on it would make big improvements over the current generation of MBT. Nor do I don't see Turkey making enough of them, or with the same protection, as the L2 or the C2.

As for self-sufficiency, Greece doesn't need it for it's military.
It has the EU nations to buy plenty of weapons from.

aha. in what regards will the new tank face the other MBT you mentioned,i don´t get it, i mean in regards to what?
to face it on the battlefield?
to sell it abroad>this is not the intention of the new turkish MBT(not now....)
the K-2 a bastard of the M-1
yeah...whatever.....
how much do you know about the K-2 and it´s capabilities?not much...like me too,but here are some details:120 L55 gun,automatic loader in turret bustle(the turkish will not have it,perhaps later who knows?),1500 hp diesel,active protection system(based on arena)hydropneumatic transmission,advanced armor including ERA....
so what makes you think that it has to face all the MBT you mentioned?
first batch of 500 with a planned second batch of another 500?
not enough?and we also have 298 LEO II A4 and 170 Sabra type M-60 upgrade and i´ve read in turkish defence magazine that the technology we gain thx to our new MBT will be used to upgrade the rest of our M-60 fleet(nearly 1000 alltogether)
but this is not about mine is bigger then yours,
I just want to repeat,we just don want new weapons,we want the technology to build these kind of systems, which is a very wise decision.
greece buys many weapons from EU?aha...well known for their cheap weapons and spare parts?
and plz let ´politics out from this thread,esspecially that pkknutkick ) theme

 

[Parmenion]

Stumpy75 you come down with the regular wanabe-ironic turkish style... expected.

The IRIS-T program is product of German,Italian, Swedish,Greek, Norwegian and Canadian co-operation since 1995. Spain decided to participate also later on around 2000 i think. Workshare arrangements for IRIS-T development are: Germany 46% , Italy 19% , Sweden 18% , Greece 13% , 4% split between Canada and Norway.
"http://www.diehl-bgt.de/index.php?id=561&L=1"
http://www.eurofighter-typhoon.co.uk/common/AA/irist.html"


Greece will acquire initially 350 IRIS-T missiles. HAF already deploys a small number of IRIS-T missiles as all the program participants fro trials. The rest will follow very soon as the program has no delays or problems.

On the other hand TUrkey does not have yet a single AIM-9X... Also Turkey does not have an advanced F-16 in the Block52+ standards yet with J.H.M.C.S. and the rest. (Even the haf F-4E PI2000 have IRIS-T capability...)
The reality is that Greece,following the usual tactic, will acquire also a respected number of AIM-9X to complement its inventory and to test the weapon so as to gain strategic knowledge of facing it. Whereas Turkey will never get a hold on IRIS-T (since Greece will never allow it) and it will be a totally unknown weapon for the tuaf.

Reagarding the MBT, a Korean improved clone of M1 stands no chance against a German made MBT. In what respect K-2 is better than Leo-2? Armour? Gun? Suspension? Electronics? Engine? Overall quality? Plz feel free to comment. Can you show me why the K-2 Gun is better than Leo's for example?
Is this the way media promotes it in Turkey? As a super tank?
By the time the new turkish MBT enters service, Greece will complement its current inventory of Leopard 2A4 and 2A6GR with the up to date version of the German Leopard. Note that the Leo2A6GR are built by EBO locally in Greece under licence.

Note also that Greek defence dogma is for...defence. We do not need vast numbers of MBTs since we do not plan for invasion in Turkey. In Thrace were it will be the theatre for MBTs confrontation there are only mountains and 2 narrow strips of valleys ranging from Evros river up to Macedonia district. You cannot deploy more 400-500 MBTs there...

Of course you can try to land your MBTs in our islands, it will be such a nice target for the S-70 penguin missiles, the land based and airbone exocets and the fast attack crafts...:nutkick







For you Attila.... what can i say? Your response says everything by itself...
It is more than obvious that you are a PhD or something with IQ of a nobel nominee.

At least by your statement you fully acknowledge the political and cultural situation in Turkey. Of course i believe that you did that by mistake, an neuron signal crash or something.

Personal attack tactics do not have impact in Greeks which have a long tradition of sophistry.

You ultra-nationalists have to learn to compute and express more sophisticated thoughts than "Our gloriuous nation with its invincible army" etc. :lul You sound like north koreans or something.


PKK is fighting for the rights of 20,000,000 supressed Kurds in Eastern Turkey. And all Greeks feel ashame for our goverment that gave Ocalan to your hands (under extreme US pressure) to prison him in medieval conditions, denied of the most basic human rights. I was out in streets pretesting hardly with thousands of fellow Greeks when we learned what happened,you see i have this right in my country (to denounce loyd and clear in public my administration's, army's or secret service's acts) and all the Kurds know the sentiments of Greek people towards them despite of the stance of the official Greek goverment .


I would prefer if the Attilas posts are left intact by the administration, so as people can judge his quality.

 

[Atilla [TR]]

PKK is fighting for the rights of 20,000,000 supressed Kurds in Eastern Turkey. And all Greeks feel ashame for our goverment that gave Ocalan to your hands (under extreme US pressure) to prison him in medieval conditions, denied of the most basic human rights. I was out in streets pretesting hardly with thousands of fellow Greeks when we learned what happened,you see i have this right in my country (to denounce loyd and clear in public my administration's, army's or secret service's acts) and all the Kurds know the sentiments of Greek people towards them despite of the stance of the official Greek goverment .

Another bit of you stupidity you cannot count there is less then 12 million I say you might have to grow more fingers to count. Greeks did not hand him over Turkey came and picked him up. SO you go on to say you support PKK I will leave it as that. I hope you do not live in America you might end up in the American part of Cuba along with Harold and Kumar.

Also there is not even a picture of the Turkish MBT yet and it seems like you know all about it.


May you please explain what a dogma is? I believe humans who speak english call it a doctrine. Ohh and ours (doctrine that is) says the same thing defense of the nation.

 

[Parmenion]

Come on lil' attila, continue the personal attacks,speak your mind.:joker :finger2 :joker :finger2 :alian2

All Greeks support the PKK as it will be the diversion force in case of a Greco-Turkish major conflict, not because they are our friends that much, but because they cannot loose the opportunity of a busy Turkish army with the Greek one, and they will probably launch a large scale armed rebelion in your east .

But seriously now... since when thoughts of support to a whole nation fighting for its independance can be portrayed as offence to our American allies? Are you trying to indimidate me or something? Is this the tactic that you use back in Turkey when you hear things that you dont like?
Ah i forgot..there you use physical crude force and torture as well..... :nono :nono :nono :whip
We Greeks are not frightened creatures like you,we are not burden beasts,we are proud free men and we know how defend our status and our interests,with words and with deeds.

By the way lately US adores the Kurds and is considering of removing PKK from the terror list in the future,not imediatelly cause of Turkish complains.

According to EU law PKK are not terorists dear Turk... and i live in EU....
Check plz:
"http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7328238.stm"
"http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSL03672799"
Of course the removal from the European list of terror has not yet came into place due to Turkish nagging, but legaly they are not and soon they will not be politically as well.


As for DOGMA open an English dictionary to see its meaning.
According to Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary :
doctrine - a belief or set of beliefs held and taught by a Church, a political party, etc. dogma - a belief or set of beliefs held by a group or organization, which others are expected to accept without argument

I tend to use the second one since the word is Greek and is the one we use it when reffering to defence (Δόγμα).

I hope you enjoyed the lesson, feel free to ask more things you do not comprehend.

Please continue trying to insult me, i like this very much.:lol2 :lol2 :lol2 nfloorl: :nutkick



Now lets return on the topic and do not give any more attention, now or ever again,to the brain-washed turk geezer....

Turkey is a big country with some vast plains. Turkey also feels like playing the role of a region power so it is natural to want a couple of thousands of MBTs.

I repeat. Greece does not need more than 700-800 MBTs for its defence. You have to take into account the nature of the terrain you are fighting on. Thats what we concentrate on, creating a medium size fleet of top quallity MBTs and the Leo-2A6 is the best MBT around. It is ridiculus to claim that a korean-turkish MBT will be better than the Leo-2 series... So K-2 has L-55 gun,so? It is the trent for all modern tanks,what do you think? Its gun will be better than the L-55 of Leo-2? Or the engine of the same horsepower will be better than the German one?

As for indigenous production. It is economically wise only if your country plans for huge buys or will be able to export. For the small-medium buys of Greece the best solution is buying German top quality beast. (And do not forget...a hyundai Coupe is no much even for the worst BMW....)

 

[Atilla [TR]]

On this forum we usually back our arguments with facts Mr.P, as you have done with the support of PKK in Europe (without a doubt most of PKK 90 million dollar budget comes from EU, because most "Turks" in Europe are not really "Turks" if you catch my drift, MIT has caught various European PM talking to high level PKK morons). But can you back up your idea that the Leo 2 is better then a tank which right now is only documents and contracts, and there is no pictures. See what I mean you accuse me of lying and saying i am a brain washed Ultra nationalist Turk, when you are obviously nationalistic of your country? Funny how you say I am brain washed by Turkish schools yet I have lived most almost all of my life in Canada, and still to this date have difficulty writing Turkish, I have just recently been here for a few months and you think they have enough time to brainwash me, I was born here and just left a few weeks later? This is my own idea to be Patriotic, I thought EU says that anyone can believe what ever they want to believe in Eu? Am I correct or wrong? More or less I am patriotic because I want my Turkish brothers to unite and possible my cousins one of which is going to make a help make us a tank. I am not the patriot that wants to attack a low life Slav country. Would you believe me if I said I had Greek friends in Canada? Because I did, they knew I was Patriotic but not of the kind they don't like. You on the other hand....

 

[Stimpy75]

where did i say that the K-2 is better then the leo II?
i just wanted to say that it is not inferior.
you have some iris...do you also have a HMCS for the iris to use it´s full capabilities?which HMCS do you use currently.
and again plz,damn it, let that fu***in politics out of here!
remember the name of this thread?
so everybody calm down!

 

[AegisFC]

This thread is being locked for a few days so tempers can calm down, do not reopen another thread on this topic.
Me or one of the other mods will reopen this thread at a later time.
Parmenion, do not put so many smilies in your post, no more than 8 per post.

 

[AegisFC]

I'm unlocking the thread, everyone stay on topic and avoid the personal insults or the thread will be locked for good!

 

[fantasma]

ok thx Aegis FC..lets try all of us here to have a discusion without ironic comments and behaviour that characterises childs and not mature adults.
Back on the topic now..there are intense roumors speculations that the H.N under negotiations in order to sign contract for more 2 Super Vita class boats -fast attack missile crafts-. H.N already has 5 and maybe the target is to reach 10 super vitras in the greek fleet.