Arms race: Greece & Turkey

[IrishHitman]

What NATO thinks about this race ? ? ?

I doubt NATO cares much, both Turkey and Greece are NATO countries.
Increasing both their military capabilities just gives more power to NATO in that region.

 

[eliaslar]

NATO cares about this situation, since both countries are members of the alliance, it wouldn't be very good for the stability of the alliance a war between the countries.
On the other hand, even if most of the citizens of both countries don't like this situation and many lives have been lost, the Aegean has become a very good theater to test various systems and tactics, since both countries use and will use some of the most modern equipment in NATO.
I think NATO won't intervene in this region, unless things get very worse.
My thought is what might happen if both countries agree to stop buying weapons. Of course this would be a good move towards the stability of the region, but would military industry allow some billions of Euros and Dollars loss?

 

[IrishHitman]

NATO cares about this situation, since both countries are members of the alliance, it wouldn't be very good for the stability of the alliance a war between the countries.
On the other hand, even if most of the citizens of both countries don't like this situation and many lives have been lost, the Aegean has become a very good theater to test various systems and tactics, since both countries use and will use some of the most modern equipment in NATO.
I think NATO won't intervene in this region, unless things get very worse.
My thought is what might happen if both countries agree to stop buying weapons. Of course this would be a good move towards the stability of the region, but would military industry allow some billions of Euros and Dollars loss?

I seriously doubt that a war between Turkey and Greece will happen.
EU Common Defence and Security dictates that if Turkey is aggressive to Greece, the rest of the EU, over 2 million active personnel and millions more reserves, go to war with Turkey. Something which would be devastatingly decisive.

To put it simply, Greece would win.

 

[eliaslar]

Of course such a war will never happen, at least with the present status.
You may be right in your EU Common Defence matter, but EU Common Defence is not a "real" thing now, but the first steps have happened and i am sure in the very close future we will see more things happen towards a common army of the EU.

 

[IrishHitman]

Of course such a war will never happen, at least with the present status.
You may be right in your EU Common Defence matter, but EU Common Defence is not a "real" thing now, but the first steps have happened and i am sure in the very close future we will see more things happen towards a common army of the EU.

It's been a reality since the Nice Treaty (with exception of Ireland and Denmark) and will be fully brought in with the Lisbon Treaty.

Europe doesn't even need a unified military to defeat Turkey.....

 

[eliaslar]

I agree with what you say but i don't think it's useful to use terms as if EU is at war with Turkey now, at least there is not such hostile environment also some friends from Turkey are also in this thread and such a conversation could be a spark of war...
I also think Turkey is coming closer to the EU year by year and a war between Greece and Turkey is not the best choice for neither side and not so possible, as you already have correctly said.

 

[IrishHitman]

Frankly, I see Turkey ascending to the Union relatively soon..

 

[Atilla [TR]]

Europe doesn't even need a unified military to defeat Turkey.....

Ohh really! HAHAHAHAHHAHA! I will leave it to that if you want this to continue, go right ahead and continue this. You ($#(*#($&#(& tried this in WW1 hmmm Turkey is still on the maps! You guys realize how much U.S interests there are in Turkey? How U.S and Israel would lose there only Muslim ally? How U.S would lose there bridge to the Middle East?

 

[Parmenion]

Some recent info regarding the thread. A few days ago Greek goverment approved new weapon orders. The money to be spent are 14,6 billion euros and the orders are to be made as soon as possible with direct contract assignments to avoid delay in competitions. These purchases are impressive and are for real.

Upgrate all the F-16 block 30-50 to Block52+ version.

Upgrate of the remaining Mirage2000 to M2K-5 version.

40 (+option for 20 more) new fighters. EF2000 is the main comperitor and Rafale follows but with few hopes.
80 more fighters are planned to be purchased in 2015,presumably F-35.

45 training aircraft

4-5 naval cooperation aircraft

Upgrate the existing S-300 air-defence system to S-400 version.

Purchase of more Patriot air-defence systems or BUK-M2 to retire the aged Hawk missiles.

20 NH-90 transport helicopters

6 new frigates, air-defence oriented. (Possibly french made freda with either aegis or aster system,and scalp navale...)

420 BMP-3 (already ordered from Vladimir) + a few more of the marine version.

Plus more minor procurements such as LEO-2A6GR ammunition, etc.


So it is clear that for the short-to-medium term, Hellenic Air Force will not only maintain the quallitative edge against TUAF but it will dramatically change the power balance to its favor.


Of course one will have to wait the reaction of the other side before concluding...

For the present capabilities of the Hellenic Air Force plz visit wikipedia, which is quite accurate for this.
"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenic_Air_Force"
Read carefully,compare it with respective of the TUAF and make your conclussions...


Note the following force multipliers.

IRIS-T in conjuction with helmet mounted sights which give a sharp clean advantage in a dogfight over tuaf.
SCALP-EG air-launched cruise missiles for long distance strikes
Note also the anti-aircraft systems which Greece deploy.... a hell lot of assets.

 

[IrishHitman]

Ohh really! HAHAHAHAHHAHA! I will leave it to that if you want this to continue, go right ahead and continue this. You ($#(*#($&#(& tried this in WW1 hmmm Turkey is still on the maps! You guys realize how much U.S interests there are in Turkey? How U.S and Israel would lose there only Muslim ally? How U.S would lose there bridge to the Middle East?

That was the Ottoman Empire, not Turkey.
And it was before the advent of Blitzkrieg warfare.
AND they suffered terrible defeats at the hands of the UK in other places.
Had the war continued with the Ottomans, the Brits and Irish would have handed the Turks their arses. You've read up on the ANZAC landings too much I think.

US and Israeli interests of course limit the ability of the EU to launch offensive actions against Turkey, but the EU certainly can defend Greece without incurring any bad will from Israel or America. No matter how much the Americans need Turkey, they need the EU more. Greece itself with a good commander could fend off the Turks anyway.

Being Turkish, I think you're a bit biased to belief that Turkey can defend itself against the combined military might of 25 other countries, including some of the most powerful in the world.

 

[Atilla [TR]]

Being Turkish, I think you're a bit biased to belief that Turkey can defend itself against the combined military might of 25 other countries, including some of the most powerful in the world.

Well it would really be a big pain in the Ass for Europe if ( I hope this never happens) but if Iranian ice cream cones where lined up against the Aegean and actually in Europe as well (considering a bit of Turkey is in Europe). But no this would never happen and what you say would never happen yet again Turkey is a very great ally to Israel and the U.S and they are the real leaders of EU . You do realize that Turkey always defends Israel and Europe dose not yet they are also a Muslim country and Turkey from what I heard was one of the first nations to recognize the state of Israel I hear that they where the Second or third nation. Anyway F-16I (sufas), and F-15I (Ra'am) would look beautiful with the Tuaf markers on them if ever your dream war to happen. Also WW1 stopped yet Turkey still continued to fight. You should read more of the Turkish independence war. Then again you cannot knowledge someone who has there own history made up in there head. Ohh and trust me Turkey is well prepared for Blitzkrieg considering they have been fighting terrorists for the past 20 years, on one of the hardest terrains in the world to fight in.

 

[eliaslar]

maybe it would be wise enough to be calm and not let this thread get out of control.

 

[ASFC]

Ignoring any hypothetical EU-Turkey war which is highly unlikely, what makes you think that Israel has F15's and F16's to spare, never mind if they were actually willing to lend them to you?

 

[Atilla [TR]]

Ignoring any hypothetical EU-Turkey war which is highly unlikely, what makes you think that Israel has F15's and F16's to spare, never mind if they were actually willing to lend them to you?

Considering we are one of there biggest supporters and we do buy a lot from them they probably want this to remain. What i meant was for Turkey to buy them not borrow them.

 

[ASFC]

I doubt you could buy them, firstly because if you could afford F-15's you would have bought some already and secondly it would be unacceptable for Israel to cut its air combat arm.

And this is before we get to adding another line of logistics to your Air Force and the training required. It would be easier to just buy more F-16's from America or elsewhere.

 

[Atilla [TR]]

You still have not answered the question. I ask what makes you think they will lend them to you and you say 'we will buy them', which i doubt, firstly because if you could afford F-15's you would have bought some already and secondly it would be unacceptable for Israel to cut its air combat arm.

Turkey has not shown a need for F-15's and if they wanted to buy them they could. Considering Turkey was thinking of purchasing Typhoons which correct me if I am wrong are more expensive then F-15s? And yeah Israel would think about them self before another nation as would all nations. Turkey just put an order for 100 F-35 at 10.7 billion Israel bought 30 of there F-15 for 2.5 billion I might be off.

 

[ASFC]

Sorry I have always been of the understanding that Turkey bought surplus F-4s back in the 1990's because it could not afford its prefered choices (back then) of either Tornado or F-15?

Aerospaceweb reckons that one F-15E would cost $100million (for Korea in 2006).
Whereas USAF in its FY2009 estimates release here projects the F-35 to cost $83million each. Now I don't know the accuracy of either sources, but if their estimates are true, i'd say it would be cheaper to buy F-35(other costs and inflation not withstanding of course).

billion Israel bought 30 of there F-15 for 2.5 billion I might be off.

Not sure which purchase you are talking about, but it was a long time ago (almost as long ago as my first comment in this post) since Israel last purchased F-15s (1995?) so I wonder if that figure has been adjusted for inflation?

Either way, your claim that Israel would help you is just a tad out and unsupported don't you think?

 

[Atilla [TR]]

Sorry I have always been of the understanding that Turkey bought surplus F-4s back in the 1990's because it could not afford its prefered choices (back then) of either Tornado or F-15?

Either way, your claim that Israel would help you is just a tad out and unsupported don't you think?

That is almost 20 years ago and Turkey's military budget is much much higher then it was back then. Today because Turkey has a much higher defense budget, they decided to get rid of the F-4's with F-35 yet I have read lots of reports that Turkey is looking for a dual engined fighter after 2010. If ever the F-22 was to become ok for foreign sales Turkey in 2015 might buy something like -30 of them might but, also might buy a European delta wing which they can double the number of that and then some.

 

[IrishHitman]

Well it would really be a big pain in the Ass for Europe if ( I hope this never happens) but if Iranian ice cream cones where lined up against the Aegean and actually in Europe as well (considering a bit of Turkey is in Europe). But no this would never happen and what you say would never happen yet again Turkey is a very great ally to Israel and the U.S and they are the real leaders of EU . You do realize that Turkey always defends Israel and Europe dose not yet they are also a Muslim country and Turkey from what I heard was one of the first nations to recognize the state of Israel I hear that they where the Second or third nation. Anyway F-16I (sufas), and F-15I (Ra'am) would look beautiful with the Tuaf markers on them if ever your dream war to happen. Also WW1 stopped yet Turkey still continued to fight. You should read more of the Turkish independence war. Then again you cannot knowledge someone who has there own history made up in there head. Ohh and trust me Turkey is well prepared for Blitzkrieg considering they have been fighting terrorists for the past 20 years, on one of the hardest terrains in the world to fight in.

Iranian ice cream cones have nothing on Tridents, or M45SLBMs.
Fizzlers, nothing more.

The US and Israel are not the real leaders of the EU. That is complete ignorance. The US relies on the EU more than Turkey, because it is a major economic market. Turkey is one country, the EU is many. With a significantly larger population.

Why would the EU wish to help Israel? What benefit would there be in that?
Israel breaks UN resolutions and human rights on a daily basis, which is against the entire point of the EU. By defending them, you are agreeing with them that human rights are meaningless.

You can keep your F16s and F15s, the EU be flying F35s and Eurofighters...
I fail to see how beauty of an aircraft amounts to combat ability.

The Turkish War of Independence? That's a joke in the greater scheme of things, not to mention irrelevent to the point.

The Kurdistan issue and a possible attack by the EU are completely different.
Turkey is NOT ready for a full scale attack, and saying that it is because it's fighting a few guerrillas in the East is beyond ignorant.

Turkey's military budget may be higher, but at only 15 billion dollars, is tiny compared to the EU's 300 billion+. I seriously doubt that Turkey will buy the F35, or the F22, out of sheer cost.

 

[Parmenion]

No Irish you are wrong in the F-35 thingy. Turkey is a minor participant in the program and will buy 100 units when it becomes available. F-22 is out of question of course, pure science fiction.

You are right on others things Irish dude though. Of course human rights in Turkey are meaningless, what do you think are those "reforms" that Turkey needs to make in order to stand some change getting in EU...? Paint their houses blue with yellow stars...?

Turkey is a semi-dicatorship, where the amry generals play a signifficant role in political decisions.
In press everything is censored by the fear of oudated military laws found only in absolute regimes.
People are persecuted for their ideas. Not to mention the paramilitary "gray wolves" murdering people that want something to change in the ragime.
But sometimes give us quite a laugh, eg they banned youtube for some time in Turkish networks cause some Greek kid made a vid that made fun of Kemal Attaturk, a personality cult figure in turkey.

Not to mention how they are taught history in schools...

Turks forbid every year their folk by crude force to honor the 1st of May. Imagine if in Ireland the goverment questioned the right of the people to assemble...

Thats why turk posters come so much arrogant in their answers. In their minds (they are taught so) turks are the strongest after the US. Turks have advanced technology, advanced economy, turks have the most ancient language and civilization, turks rule! etc....

Try to imagine the typical Irish ultra-ultra-nationalist...... Well 99% of the turks are brainwashed to think like this.

Of course the turkish friends will have a different opinion. It is natural, they will feel being attacked, rather than pointed to the facts.

But plz friends explain to us what exactly are those "reforms" you need to make to get into EU....? Plz answer because you will make me search and find the EU text refering to them and you will be emparassed....