Arms race: Greece & Turkey

[Ozzy Blizzard]

If F-35 is going to be used for A2A it is going to have Aim-9 variants so it is going to have them loaded in an outer pylon thus lowering its stealth abilities.Maybe it will be good in BVR but in dogfights there are other factors to be taken into consideration like turn rate ,accelation in which EF is better.Also don't forget in some years the implementation in EF of CAESAR,Meteor etc

F-35 will be able to carry WVRAAM's internally, just because the current version of AIM-9x is only rail deployable there wont be an ejectable version by 2013~15. As for BVR the combination of VLO, AN/APG-81 and F-35's 5th gen EW/EWSP suite will bring a capabaility on the system wide level that Typhoon will not even with Meteor,Captor, better kinematics etc etc etc.....

 

[swerve]

If F-35 is going to be used for A2A it is going to have Aim-9 variants so it is going to have them loaded in an outer pylon thus lowering its stealth abilities....

The RAF will integrate Asraam on F-35, & Italy (& perhaps Spain) may integrate IRIS-T. Two Asraam can be carried internally.

 

[JackGr]

Well I don't disagree but we have to see the F-35 variant that will be produced in Turkey if it will have all the things you mentioned( since it's Arms race: Greece & Turkey thread).It's like comparing HAFs F-16 with IAF F-16s,same plane but completely different customisation.And I am really curious why for example UK hasn't made a big reduction in EF acquisitions since from what you say F-35 will be far better in A2A.

 

[Yasin20]

hell if turkiye can do that then it should do it to its own F16's as well to

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

Well I don't disagree but we have to see the F-35 variant that will be produced in Turkey if it will have all the things you mentioned( since it's Arms race: Greece & Turkey thread).It's like comparing HAFs F-16 with IAF F-16s,same plane but completely different customisation.And I am really curious why for example UK hasn't made a big reduction in EF acquisitions since from what you say F-35 will be far better in A2A.

Initially the TuAF should be getting block 4~5 F-35's, same as everyone else. The variance in F-16 capability is diferent for a number of reasons, F-16 is at the end of its development curve, therefore numerous developments and variants have been developed.

As for the UK, it will have a combined orbat anyway so it gets the best of both worlds. But as for it still buying typhoons, well unlike us out here on the Internet goverments don't really care whether the F-35 would beat an EF-2000 in BVR combat. What they do care about is the money spent, risk, economic benefit and your capability vs the threat. Both the F-35 and Typhoon are more than adequate for the current threat environment, the most capable of which is the flanker series. Therefore after investing soo much money on the Eurofighter programe and enjoying the domestic economic benifits of production share and profits from exports why on earth would they sacrifice that because teh F-35 may be "better"? Why did the RAF invest in the Tornado ADV when it was inferior to an F-15? Same reason. EF-2000 is more than capable enough to achieve at very least parity for any threat aircraft the RAF will face in the next 15~20 years, buy which time they may well have invested in 6th gen.

 

[Yasin20]

Initially the TuAF should be getting block 4~5 F-35's, same as everyone else. The variance in F-16 capability is diferent for a number of reasons, F-16 is at the end of its development curve, therefore numerous developments and variants have been developed.

As for the UK, it will have a combined orbat anyway so it gets the best of both worlds. But as for it still buying typhoons, well unlike us out here on the Internet goverments don't really care whether the F-35 would beat an EF-2000 in BVR combat. What they do care about is the money spent, risk, economic benefit and your capability vs the threat. Both the F-35 and Typhoon are more than adequate for the current threat environment, the most capable of which is the flanker series. Therefore after investing soo much money on the Eurofighter programe and enjoying the domestic economic benifits of production share and profits from exports why on earth would they sacrifice that because teh F-35 may be "better"? Why did the RAF invest in the Tornado ADV when it was inferior to an F-15? Same reason. EF-2000 is more than capable enough to achieve at very least parity for any threat aircraft the RAF will face in the next 15~20 years, buy which time they may well have invested in 6th gen.

maybe they dont care becouse the american dollar is like nothing to them maybe thats why they dont care what they spend on

 

[JackGr]

Yeah Ozzy you are a bit right I guess Greece would do the same if we agreed for the Rafale co-production.(Both Rafale and F-35 inventory).Yasin you are right cause Euro beats dollar so it's becoming cheaper for Europeans to buy US arms.

 

[eliaslar]

does anyone knows when the F-35 will become operational?

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

does anyone knows when the F-35 will become operational?

Planned IOC is 2013.

 

[Atilla [TR]]

Planned IOC is 2013.

Good there is a long time for Turkey a to make up there decision! The more i hear about the F-35 the worst it is like from the ground up designed to be a heavy weight bomber not an air combat aircraft. But if Turkey just added the extras like i said in my posts above ( trust vectoring, new motor, rotating internal A2A missile bay, Stealth Paint which they have) then there is no need for a F-22, but those upgrades are not on plan and if they want to be it will be far ahead of the release date, if they start now maybe they might nudge it in on time.

I got to quit thinking about the F-35 making me mad! :nutkick

 

[Yasin20]

why dosnt turkiye just invest there money and work with the south koreans KFX program instead

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

Good there is a long time for Turkey a to make up there decision! The more i hear about the F-35 the worst it is like from the ground up designed to be a heavy weight bomber not an air combat aircraft. But if Turkey just added the extras like i said in my posts above ( trust vectoring, new motor, rotating internal A2A missile bay, Stealth Paint which they have) then there is no need for a F-22, but those upgrades are not on plan and if they want to be it will be far ahead of the release date, if they start now maybe they might nudge it in on time.

I got to quit thinking about the F-35 making me mad! :nutkick

The F-35A will be a a far more capable air superiority asset than anything in the next 20 years bar the F-22A, so what are you worried about? What upgrades do you want?

More missiles in the internal bays? Allready being worked on by LM.

An new engine? Why? the F135 is the single most powerfull fighter sized engine on the plannet, and will alow that little fighter to hawl a huge ammount of fuel & payload and have an impresive T/W ratio (better than rafale with similar internal fuel).

Why does it need TVC? Sensor missile combinations are far more improtant in WVR combat than instentanious turn rates. The Distributed Apature System on the F-35 will provide 360 dgeree's of IR coverage, coupled with the 360 degree engagement envilope of the ASRAAM (or 270 of the AIM 9X) means an F-35 can egnage a threat at any bearing without maneuvering, even directly behind. Therfore why is trust vectoring important when you dont even need to turn to employ wour weapons systems? that sensor missile combination is not employed on any other fighter, meaning the F-35 will be a devistateing WVR fighter.

The F-35A~C was designed from the ground up to be a multirole fighter, which means neither its strike or A2A capability have been compromised becasue of the other. (apart from the F-22) What other platforms are there out there that bring VLO, 3rd gen AESA and 5th gen EW/EWSP suite? These things alone make the F-35 a devistateing BVR fighter.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

why dosnt turkiye just invest there money and work with the south koreans KFX program instead

Becasue the F-35 will actually eventuate.

 

[Yasin20]

hah lol i feal like a freaking kid here with these kid question hahah owe my god any ways thanx for the answer

 

[Atilla [TR]]

The F-35A will be a a far more capable air superiority asset than anything in the next 20 years bar the F-22A, so what are you worried about? What upgrades do you want?

More missiles in the internal bays? Allready being worked on by LM.

An new engine? Why? the F135 is the single most powerfull fighter sized engine on the plannet, and will alow that little fighter to hawl a huge ammount of fuel & payload and have an impresive T/W ratio (better than rafale with similar internal fuel).

Why does it need TVC? Sensor missile combinations are far more important in WVR combat than instentanious turn rates. The Distributed Apature System on the F-35 will provide 360 degree's of IR coverage, coupled with the 360 degree engagement envelope of the ASRAAM (or 270 of the AIM 9X) means an F-35 can engage a threat at any bearing without maneuvering, even directly behind. Therefore why is trust vectoring important when you don't even need to turn to employ your weapons systems? that sensor missile combination is not employed on any other fighter, meaning the F-35 will be a devastating WVR fighter.

The F-35A~C was designed from the ground up to be a multirole fighter, which means neither its strike or A2A capability have been compromised because of the other. (apart from the F-22) What other platforms are there out there that bring VLO, 3rd gen AESA and 5th gen EW/EWSP suite? These things alone make the F-35 a devastating BVR fighter.

WOW you help me calm down, I don't know I wish the plane at least had super cruise that is not a big deal, I wanted the "instentanious turn rates" because what if a sam locked on that way the plane could out maneuverer it, then launch it's flares, I don't know but having trust vectoring is important and will come out on the battlefield. But I heard the F-35 already has good maneuverability so...

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

WOW you help me calm down, I don't know I wish the plane at least had super cruise that is not a big deal,

They could have given it supercruise if they wanted too. But you pay an efficiency penalty for haveing a high bypass ratio engine (which the supercrusiers use for the most part) so it was deemed unessisary. As handy as supercruise is its not essential to the F-35's A2A capability.

I wanted the "instentanious turn rates" because what if a sam locked on that way the plane could out maneuverer it, then launch it's flares, I don't know but having trust vectoring is important and will come out on the battlefield. But I heard the F-35 already has good maneuverability so...

When your faced with an incomeing missile turning wont save you, no fighter is going to be able to out turn a missile (some of those things can pull 50+G's compared to 9 for a fighter). Kinematical performance is more important (speed and energy maneuvers), you want to put the missile on your 3 o'clock and hit the burner in order to make the missile bleed off energy as it tries to keep the intercept track. In this case the F-35's good T/W ratio and heaps of internal fuel will mean it can accelarate quickly and keep on burner for sustained periods. Ofcource ECM/IRCM are also vital.

 

[JackGr]

Well if what they say about S-400 is true,F-35s are going to fall like flies no matter their kinematical performance (Personal opinion).

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

Well if what they say about S-400 is true,F-35s are going to fall like flies no matter their kinematical performance (Personal opinion).

1. If what they say is true, which is doubtfull considering the S400 is basically an upgraded S300PMU, which couldnt do any of the magical things the russians claim S400 can do (neither can the more sophistocated and with a higher power output SPY-1D for that matter, funny about that huh?). Considering the need for some magical counter to VLO and the russian's lax attitude to truthfull marketing i doubt it.

2. Your looking at things in a way too simplistic manner if you think its F-35 vs S400. Its an IADS equiped in part with S400 vs a whole air combat system equiped in part by F-35. Those S400 units are going to have to deal with 21st century EW capability and 500nm standoff weapons launched by F-35's supported by E-X, Rivet XX, KC XX ect ect. If for arguments sake the russians claims are true, your relying on a single weapons system as your whole IADS. Its the only thing that can see or shoot. How many ARM's/JASSM-ER's/JSOW-ER's do you think will be saturating said single system before a single F-35 peeks its head above the radar horizon? I woudlnt want to be a maning an S-400 battery at that point.

No, somehow i dont think the F-35's will be "droping like flies" even if the mythical, magical S-400 turns out to live up to the colosal expectations. Single weapons systems dont achieve decicive results alone, its intergrated combat systems that count.

 

[eliaslar]

In my humble eyes F-35 doesn't look like a fighter that will make the difference over the Aegean sea in the next years...especially from what i hear in Greece if we buy the Eurofighter or Rafale, or even better a combination of them , air supperiority will be a matter of fact. Not to mention the time that will take for F-35's to become fully operational.

 

[JackGr]

1. If what they say is true, which is doubtfull considering the S400 is basically an upgraded S300PMU, which couldnt do any of the magical things the russians claim S400 can do (neither can the more sophistocated and with a higher power output SPY-1D for that matter, funny about that huh?). Considering the need for some magical counter to VLO and the russian's lax attitude to truthfull marketing i doubt it.

2. Your looking at things in a way too simplistic manner if you think its F-35 vs S400. Its an IADS equiped in part with S400 vs a whole air combat system equiped in part by F-35. Those S400 units are going to have to deal with 21st century EW capability and 500nm standoff weapons launched by F-35's supported by E-X, Rivet XX, KC XX ect ect. If for arguments sake the russians claims are true, your relying on a single weapons system as your whole IADS. Its the only thing that can see or shoot. How many ARM's/JASSM-ER's/JSOW-ER's do you think will be saturating said single system before a single F-35 peeks its head above the radar horizon? I woudlnt want to be a maning an S-400 battery at that point.

No, somehow i dont think the F-35's will be "droping like flies" even if the mythical, magical S-400 turns out to live up to the colosal expectations. Single weapons systems dont achieve decicive results alone, its intergrated combat systems that count.

It is said that S-400 have 2 times the Patriot's range according to Wiki which if you check has very good references about it so I don't think it's so mythical.Also nowadays weapons HARMs(~60nm),AGM154 JSOW(~70nm) are shot inside its lethal range.JSOW-ER and JASSM-ER are very capable I must admit that but if,(I know again if but "If" are important since we are just speculating) it can shoot down Cruise missiles why not shoot down those advanced weapons?I know it's just a hypothesis but to be right you have to count every possibility.Also I was misunderstood,I said about "falling like flies" in a manner of speech,like a joke,S-400 won't do that alone,but imagine having S-400 with Su-XX,Mig-XX etc etc