Arms race: Greece & Turkey

[beleg]

@ren
Those numbers change every year for each country but CIA often puts up an older number. Last time i checked 4.3% was the info for 2003.


Dear fantasma,
do you mean a LIFT trainer (like T-50) or are we talking about a basic trainer (like M-311)?

Currently Turkey does not need a LIFT trainer in class of T-50 because of the complete LIFT modernisation applied to F-5 2000s (Hotas,HUD,F-16 avionics). The F-5 2000s based in Konya are being used only for LIFT role and trains pilots for more advanced F-16 jets .Same modernisation will be applied to T-38s and those planes will be used in the next decade for advanced training platforms.

There is however a tender for a plane to fill the role of the old T-37s however a jet like M-311 is not considered for this purpose. TuAF will acquire modern turbo-prop aircraft (BTU) (hotas,glass cockpit etc.) for the urgent short-term need, and TAI is currently developing a prototype for mid-long term requirements of the airforce. Emrbraers Super Tucano and KAI's KTX-1 will be competing to win the contract.

current
SF260 -> T37 -> T38 -> F5-2000 -> F16
SF260 -> T37 -> T38 -> F4 -> F4-2020

will be replaced by
BTU-> T38T -> F5-2000 -> F16CCIP
BTU-> T38T -> F4 -> F4-2020

in short term for simpler and low cost training procedure..

 

[contedicavour]

@ren
Those numbers change every year for each country but CIA often puts up an older number. Last time i checked 4.3% was the info for 2003.


Dear fantasma,
do you mean a LIFT trainer (like T-50) or are we talking about a basic trainer (like M-311)?

Currently Turkey does not need a LIFT trainer in class of T-50 because of the complete LIFT modernisation applied to F-5 2000s (Hotas,HUD,F-16 avionics). The F-5 2000s based in Konya are being used only for LIFT role and trains pilots for more advanced F-16 jets .Same modernisation will be applied to T-38s and those planes will be used in the next decade for advanced training platforms.

There is however a tender for a plane to fill the role of the old T-37s however a jet like M-311 is not considered for this purpose. TuAF will acquire modern turbo-prop aircraft (BTU) (hotas,glass cockpit etc.) for the urgent short-term need, and TAI is currently developing a prototype for mid-long term requirements of the airforce. Emrbraers Super Tucano and KAI's KTX-1 will be competing to win the contract.

current
SF260 -> T37 -> T38 -> F5-2000 -> F16
SF260 -> T37 -> T38 -> F4 -> F4-2020

will be replaced by
BTU-> T38T -> F5-2000 -> F16CCIP
BTU-> T38T -> F4 -> F4-2020

in short term for simpler and low cost training procedure..

Ok for turbo-prop initial trainers, but aren't the T38s & F5s more than a bit obsolete and inadequate for transition to later generations F16s and modernized F4s ?
I have in mind the M346 of course.
Would the fact that Greece is potentially interested be a hurdle for an acquisition by Turkey ?

cheers

 

[ren0312]

@ren
Those numbers change every year for each country but CIA often puts up an older number. Last time i checked 4.3% was the info for 2003.


Dear fantasma,
do you mean a LIFT trainer (like T-50) or are we talking about a basic trainer (like M-311)?

Currently Turkey does not need a LIFT trainer in class of T-50 because of the complete LIFT modernisation applied to F-5 2000s (Hotas,HUD,F-16 avionics). The F-5 2000s based in Konya are being used only for LIFT role and trains pilots for more advanced F-16 jets .Same modernisation will be applied to T-38s and those planes will be used in the next decade for advanced training platforms.

There is however a tender for a plane to fill the role of the old T-37s however a jet like M-311 is not considered for this purpose. TuAF will acquire modern turbo-prop aircraft (BTU) (hotas,glass cockpit etc.) for the urgent short-term need, and TAI is currently developing a prototype for mid-long term requirements of the airforce. Emrbraers Super Tucano and KAI's KTX-1 will be competing to win the contract.

current
SF260 -> T37 -> T38 -> F5-2000 -> F16
SF260 -> T37 -> T38 -> F4 -> F4-2020

will be replaced by
BTU-> T38T -> F5-2000 -> F16CCIP
BTU-> T38T -> F4 -> F4-2020

in short term for simpler and low cost training procedure..

Well considering the size of Turkey's defence budget and the size of its economy relative to Greece's I think 4.3 per cent would be more appropriate, Singapore is a lot less threatened militarily than Greece is if you look at the strenght of the Malaysian armed forces relative to the Singapore armed forces, and the strenght of the Turkish armed forces relative to the Greek armed forces, and yet Singapore spends 6 per cent of its GDP on defence as compared to 2.75 for Greece, but then the fact that Singapore is not really a democracy like the UK or Greece, and the fact that Singapore is run by a right of centre government I think helps its government maintain an adequate defence budget year after year, as it does not have to deal with populist forces or a left wing opposition, unlike Italy and Spain.

 

[orko_8]

Ok for turbo-prop initial trainers, but aren't the T38s & F5s more than a bit obsolete and inadequate for transition to later generations F16s and modernized F4s ?
I have in mind the M346 of course.
Would the fact that Greece is potentially interested be a hurdle for an acquisition by Turkey ?

48 N/F-5A/B's were modernized in terms of both structures and avionics (Mıl-STD1553, Martin Baker ejection seat, MFD, HUD, synthetic radar, VTR, VHF/UHF etc). Older N/F-5's are less frequently used as aggressor role.

Turkey has huge experience in design and modernization of J-85 turbojet. TEI (Engine division of TAI, Turkish Aerospace Industries) executed an award winning R&D project with NASA for J-85 engines (was something about the ejectors or some stuff like that, cannot recall). Besides, from F-5 2000 project comes structures and avionics experience, not to mention an avionics integration lab was formed in Eskisehir Maintenance Center. That's why T-38 modernization would not be a huge problem. Add the fact that USAF also plans to fly the Talon for some more time.

 

[fantasma]

Well considering the size of Turkey's defence budget and the size of its economy relative to Greece's I think 4.3 per cent would be more appropriate, Singapore is a lot less threatened militarily than Greece is if you look at the strenght of the Malaysian armed forces relative to the Singapore armed forces, and the strenght of the Turkish armed forces relative to the Greek armed forces, and yet Singapore spends 6 per cent of its GDP on defence as compared to 2.75 for Greece, but then the fact that Singapore is not really a democracy like the UK or Greece, and the fact that Singapore is run by a right of centre government I think helps its government maintain an adequate defence budget year after year, as it does not have to deal with populist forces or a left wing opposition, unlike Italy and Spain.

Dear beleg as i did a little a bit search on my own i saw that you were completely accurate. Turkey is seeking for a turboprop initial training jet like the Embraer tucano. Figures between 39+16 options as i have read. Thanks for your post very helpfull.
Ren after 1996' greece went on a huge armament project signing contracts for new jets, upgrades, aew, subs, tanks etc etc. I dont have the accurate numbers for the percentage of those years but i guess that maybe was even higher than the 4.3%. After 2003 Greece cause of budget restraints made a "pause" and as a result the percentage now has dropped to 2.75%. It is sure that in the near future will rise again. As soon as i have the data that is given for the defence budget for new procurements for every single year until 2015 i will share it.

 

[orko_8]

Two news: 1. 30 new F-16 purchase as stop gap / attrition replacement, 2. Indigenous MALE UAV development; first flight will take place in 2008.

Turkey’s F-16 Purchase Would Halt F-4 Upgrades
By BURAK EGE BEKDIL, ANKARA And UMIT ENGINSOY, WASHINGTON


Turkey is close to a decision to acquire a fresh fleet of F-16 fighter jets, a deal the government sees as a stopgap solution until new-generation fighters join its Air Force.

Military and procurement officials said a contract may emerge in the next few months if all technical and financial negotiations go smoothly with Bethesda, Md.-based jet maker Lockheed Martin.

“We are planning to acquire 30 new F-16 fighters, and talks are continuing,” a senior Turkish procurement official said.

Ankara wants to buy the F-16 Block 52+, one of Lockheed’s most advanced fighters, said procurement and military officials. The 30 fighters are expected to cost Turkey more than $1.5 billion.

Greece, Turkey’s traditional Aegean rival, last year signed a deal for 30 F-16 Block 52+ jets, slated for delivery in 2009.

One Turkish defense analyst suggested that the move would increase the chances that Ankara would choose the U.S.-led F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) over the Eurofighter Typhoon as its next-generation combat jet. But Turkish procurement officials, who have said that either or both could be purchased, declined to comment further.

Turkey has said it would decide by year’s end whether to join the JSF’s production phase. Ankara already has invested $175 million in the JSF’s development.

The F-16 deal would put on hold a $480 million effort to upgrade 48 Vietnam War-era F-4E Phantom fighters, or at least limit the upgrades and perform them all locally, one procurement official said. “The [F-4E] program already is on hold,” he said. “We’ve downgraded its priority ranking. If we bought new F-16s, we might minimize its scope.”

The current plan calls for the upgrades to be performed by the state-owned Tusas Aerospace Industries (TAI). TAI was the co-manufacturer of F-16s in the 1990s under a contract with Lockheed. But the bulk of the money would go to Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) in technology-transfer fees and licenses.

Under a 1997 contract, IAI has been leading a joint effort to upgrade 54 U.S.-made F-4Es. Although the original contract was worth some $670 million, the project’s actual cost has exceeded $1 billion, Turkish procurement officials say. The F-4 modernization was to be a stopgap solution until the acquisition of the JSF or the Eurofighter Typhoon.

Turkey reveals MALE UAV details

By Peter La Franchi in Farnborough

Turkey's Tusas Aerospace Industries (TAI) plans to fly its indigenously developed Tiha medium-altitude, long-endurance (MALE) unmanned air vehicle within the next two years.

Releasing new details of the programme at last month's Farnborough air show, the company said concept and design work conducted since late 2004 is now nearing transition to the detailed design and test stage. Plans are also being developed to establish a laboratory to conduct air vehicle hardware and mission systems integration, it says.

Three prototype air vehicles will be built under the programme, along with single ground control and mobile imagery exploitation stations, two ground data terminals and two remote viewing terminals.

The UAV will have a 10m (33ft) all-composite fuselage, detachable low-mounted wing with a span of 17.3m and a detachable V-tail with a span of 4.5m.

Maximum take-off weight is forecast at 1,500kg (3,300lb), including provision for a 200kg payload and 250kg of fuel.

Initial payload elements will comprise a daylight camera, thermal imager, laser designator, and synthetic-aperture radar with ground moving-target identification capability. Weaponisation will be studied as the programme advances, says TAI.

The Tiha will have a pusher propeller configuration and a cruise speed of around 75kt (140km/h), service ceiling of 30,000ft and 24h endurance.

http://www.flightglobal.com/Article...7/208209/Turkey+reveals+MALE+UAV+details.html

 

[beleg]

The urgent MALE requirement of TSK was supplied by IAI Heron UAVs.

I wonder if there is any co-operation with Pakistan in the MALE UAVs, since it was in the news sources a while ago that there will be a joint production programme in UAV field.

I dont understand why we should go for a blk52 plane with different engine. THK is a block x0 user , the engine is quite reliable.Adding just 30 block x2 planes will make it logistically difficult (it would make less than 2 sqs.) despite the fact that having 2 different engine types might have its advantage if one type is grounded for some reason.

 

[fantasma]

If the new f16s deal proceed i guess the assembly line in Turkey will take the job??? Maybe,because the production line is closed for quite a time the cost will be higher..the air balance in the aegean wont be affected seriously after this procurement. 2009 Greece will have operational 160 f16 (90 f16 blk 52+, 40 blk 50, 30 blk 30) + 45 Mirage 2000 (25 Mirage 2000-5). Until the CCIP project in 2011 offers the upgraded f16s and the new batch of the 30 f16blk 52+ for TuAF (maybe 2010 or early 2011) the qualitative advantage is on the Greek side with a leathal combo of f16s/ APG 68V9/ JHMCS/ IRIS-T and Mirage 2000-5/ MICA/ and the substrategic SCALP EG with a range more than 250 NM. After 2011 there will be an equilibrium with 117 F16S CCIP + 30 f16s blk 52+ (if the option for 80 more f16s upgrades to CCIP standard occurs then the Tuaf will have the upper hand). To my point of view after the decision of the goverment to pospone the deal for new fighter jets for haf then the possibilities for the JSF are rising.

 

[beleg]

The planes will surely be assembled in the USA if the order commences.

Does Greece have plans to modernise its block 50s?

 

[fantasma]

The planes will surely be assembled in the USA if the order commences.

Does Greece have plans to modernise its block 50s?

There are plans and budget around 50mn euros but not further info. This will proceed to the next empae. If i got time ill check it sometime later today but for the first blk 30's there is a programme to upgrade their avionics and especially their radars to the current empae at a cost of 100 mn euros. (not proceeded yet)

 

[Stimpy75]

Just a question:will the new f-16 be equipped with conformal fuel tanks like the new greece f-16?
OK we have tankers,but i think it will still be advantage.

 

[beleg]

There is still no information about the details of such purchase but imo its unlikely.

 

[fantasma]

Data from website "ellinikos-stratos.com" for empae projects and costs:

Air Force​

1. aircraft procurement for attrition (€ 2.810.000.000) (do they mean the last 30 f16s???????)
2. 40 next gen jets (cancelled)
3. 3 C-27J Spartan
4. 3 air refuelling tankers (not info on that maybe cancelled)
5. 15 SAR helos (€ 234.000.000)
6. 45 training jets (€ 900.000.000)
7. LANTIRN pods(€ 55.000.000)
8. Self protection suites for C-27J Spartan (€ 60.000.000)
9. Self protection suites for jets (€ 350.000.000) (for the last batch of 30 blk 52+
10. Stand-off weapons (€ 60.000.000)
11. missiles for BVR (€ 148.000.000)
12. anti-radar missiles (€ 30.000.000)
13. air ground missiles (€ 170.000.000)
14. upgrade radars for the 32 F16 blk 30 (€ 100.000.000)
15. upgrade the rest of the Mirage 2000 (??? )
16 UAV (€ 100.000.000)

Naval Forces​

1. 6 frigates with advanced AAW capabilities (€2.200.000.000)
2. 4 second hand minehunts ($80.000.000
3. 3 S-70B
4. 3 Gunboats of the latest Osprey 55 class (150.000.000 ευρώ)
5. 2 ΤΠΚ Super Vita
6. 5 aircrafts to replace P-3b Orion -- [1]
7. 1 class ΕΤΝΑ (€ 200.000.000)
8. surface to surface missiles (€ 100.000.000)
9. upgrade ΑΒ-212 (maybe cancelled)
10. upgrade 4+2 Combattante III
11. upgrade 4 MEKO-200HN (200 mn Euros)
12. 51 torpedoes

Land Forces​

1. Satelite Coms (€ 161.764.710)
2. Satelite observating earth system (€ 14.705.870)
3. 2 helos for special operations (€ 88.200.000)
4. 20 NH-90 (€ 807.000.000)
5. 50 amphibius APC/IFV (€ 100.000.000)
6. 84 wheeled AIFV (€ 430.000.000)
7. 291 AIFV (€ 1.700.000.000) -- [1]
8. 209 wheeled recognition vehicles (€ 111.500.000) -- [1]
9. 18 105 mm. (€ 18.000.000)
10. 12 self propelled 155 mm. (€ 34.500.000)
11. 288 mortars of 120 mm. (€ 126.700.000)
12. 72 Α/Τ big range (€ 78.500.000)
13. 180 Α/Τ small range (€ 55.000.000)
14. Α/Α systems in order to replace HAWK (€ 650.000.000)
15. 1 SHORADS (€ 22.000.000)
19. upgrade 48 RM-70 (€ 28.800.000)
This is the list covering the three branches. The future will show which of these projects will proceed. I also observed that not included the project for the Leo 2A6HEL amo or a kind of upgrading the Leo 2A4 or even picking more Leo's or more second hand howitzers. Maybe that list not 100% reliable.

 

[ren0312]

There are plans and budget around 50mn euros but not further info. This will proceed to the next empae. If i got time ill check it sometime later today but for the first blk 30's there is a programme to upgrade their avionics and especially their radars to the current empae at a cost of 100 mn euros. (not proceeded yet)

OK one question, since the rest of Europe are cutting their defence budgets, what are the chances of Greece and Turkey doing the same thing and cutting their budgets drastically also, to way below 2 per cent of GDP?

 

[beleg]

@ren0312

Thats not possible for Turkey for 3 reasons,
1 - huge conscript Army
2 - relatively low GDP (compared to EU countries)
3 - instability in the region,

Greece has similar problems of their own.

@ fantasma

I dont think you can buy true advanced AAW frigates for 2.2bn€. What you can get for that price is a good multi-purpose frigate like FREMM.

I thought Grece had chosen Litening III not Lantirn?

This package seems quite impossible with the information you provided in the earlier posts.

Besides i dont understand how you guys can manage a defence budget which calculates the payments of the systems purchased in the earlier EMPAE in this EMPAE. I dont think i can truly understand this and i dont see how they can manage to run the budget & projects with this method.

Here first we allocate the budget & funds, and then start the projects and the payments is always counted in the period the project was initiated.

i.e the Peace Eagle projects payments will not be reduced from the defence budget of future years when the payments start for the project.

Can you please explain how things are run? Thanks in advance

 

[contedicavour]

@ren0312

Thats not possible for Turkey for 3 reasons,
1 - huge conscript Army
2 - relatively low GDP (compared to EU countries)
3 - instability in the region,

Greece has similar problems of their own.

@ fantasma

I dont think you can buy true advanced AAW frigates for 2.2bn€. What you can get for that price is a good multi-purpose frigate like FREMM.

I thought Grece had chosen Litening III not Lantirn?

This package seems quite impossible with the information you provided in the earlier posts.

Besides i dont understand how you guys can manage a defence budget which calculates the payments of the systems purchased in the earlier EMPAE in this EMPAE. I dont think i can truly understand this and i dont see how they can manage to run the budget & projects with this method.

Here first we allocate the budget & funds, and then start the projects and the payments is always counted in the period the project was initiated.

i.e the Peace Eagle projects payments will not be reduced from the defence budget of future years when the payments start for the project.

Can you please explain how things are run? Thanks in advance

Fully agree that 2.2 billion divided by 6 ships = 367 million euro each.
This is enough to buy one FREMM off the shelf (EMPAR radar and Aster 15 missiles) if you keep out towed array sonars and of course any SLCM.
Aster 15 have a range of 30km, so it could qualify as good AAW, although of course nothing to do with a dedicated AAW destroyer.

cheers

 

[fantasma]

@ren0312

Thats not possible for Turkey for 3 reasons,
1 - huge conscript Army
2 - relatively low GDP (compared to EU countries)
3 - instability in the region,

Greece has similar problems of their own.

@ fantasma

I dont think you can buy true advanced AAW frigates for 2.2bn€. What you can get for that price is a good multi-purpose frigate like FREMM.

I thought Grece had chosen Litening III not Lantirn?

This package seems quite impossible with the information you provided in the earlier posts.

Besides i dont understand how you guys can manage a defence budget which calculates the payments of the systems purchased in the earlier EMPAE in this EMPAE. I dont think i can truly understand this and i dont see how they can manage to run the budget & projects with this method.

Here first we allocate the budget & funds, and then start the projects and the payments is always counted in the period the project was initiated.

i.e the Peace Eagle projects payments will not be reduced from the defence budget of future years when the payments start for the project.

Can you please explain how things are run? Thanks in advance

Except the 2.2 bn euros there is an option of this amount to reach 2.8 bn euros. Only in that case if AAW Frigates 500mn per unit then 5-6 units are possible.
It is Lantirn ER ugraded system of the series.
I'm not an expert and try also to find info on that. Until that happens i can only speculate that the whole situation started on 96-2000 empae. Huge armament projects but lacking funds. 2001 greece should have a deficit under 3% in order to succeed criteria and enter the eurozone and in 2004 the Olympics were also to many funds have been headed. So to many payments were postponed and took place between 2002-2003 and after the Olympics. That is why in 2006-2010 period have a sum of payments almost 8.5 bn euros and another 1.5 between 2011-15.

 

[beleg]

Unfortunately i cant share your optimism. Greece is in no position to acquire 6 AAW frigates.. Take a look at Germany,France,Italy,Spain etc who employ only limited numbers due to the expensive prices of the platforms.

I believe Greece will acquire multi purpose frigates..

 

[fantasma]

My option is that if the decision will be for AAW Frigates then the most possible figure is 4...the ceiling for frigates is reduced to 12 from 14 units (4new + 4 meko 200 + 4 upgraded Kortenaer's???) Exept operational demands and cost is also a quantity factor there. Maybe you are right, maybe not..Complicated yes..

 

[fantasma]

out of topic if you download google.earth you click on the google earth community and on the search 37 58'24.82'' N 23 32'03.67'' E then you have a view of the main base of the Greek fleet in Salamina frigates gunbots and subs are visible. The same with other military installations such as Souda in Crete or for example the Balikesir airbase in asia minor